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Early A-Body Discussions

  1. gsoco

    gsoco gsoco

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    OK. Sorry. Battery voltage is 12.5VDC which is what I have at the the ignition switch at J-1 and Q-2...using a multimeter...
     
  2. Mattax

    Mattax Just the facts, ma'am FABO Gold Member

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    OK. Give me a second. I just enlarged the diagram so I can see it better.
    What's the voltage at R6 ?
     
  3. gsoco

    gsoco gsoco

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    12.5 vdc
     
  4. gsoco

    gsoco gsoco

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    When it started smoking, I disconnected the ballast resistor....
     
  5. Mattax

    Mattax Just the facts, ma'am FABO Gold Member

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    Ok. So from that and the check at the ignition switch we know the circuits from the battery through the main splice is connected. And it seems like the battery is charged and your meter is working.
    Since this happened. Lets go here for a little bit and come back to the instruments after that.

    When the ballast resistor get excessively hot, was the key in Start or Run?
    Also, during this attempt to start, when and where did the jumper go from and to?
     
  6. Mattax

    Mattax Just the facts, ma'am FABO Gold Member

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    For ref. here's my update of the circuits we're looking at in general.
    upload_2019-6-10_13-22-33.png

    The way I read your post, the jumper was on the starter between the battery to the solenoid posts.
    upload_2019-6-10_13-28-9.png
    Yes - that should have turned the starter, and done nothing else.
    With key in Run - it might have started.
    With in Start - it should have started and IMO the ballast should not have warmed up unless there is a short in the alternator field circuit.
     
  7. gsoco

    gsoco gsoco

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    The jumper was from A-1 to S-5 the key was off. Also, when I looked at your drawing, I noticed the A-1 and R-6A wires appeared to be reversed (from the drawing, it was hard for me to tell which goes to what pole on the ammeter) so I reversed them to look like your drawing...
     
  8. Mattax

    Mattax Just the facts, ma'am FABO Gold Member

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    My drawing is just based on what we see in the shop manual. At the same time keeping it simple to read as a schematic.
    Go with what with what the factory did!!! We can change the drawing to match what you see.
    The A1 (battery) should go the terminal that leads inside to the ammeter.
    The R6 Alternator output should go inside direct to the main splice.
     
    Last edited: Jun 10, 2019
  9. Mattax

    Mattax Just the facts, ma'am FABO Gold Member

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    That's interesting. Key off no power should have gone to the ballast resistor no matter what. Even with the A1 and R6 connections reversed the bulkhead, no power should be getting to the ballast. That's another puzzle or piece of the puzzle.

    Lets go back to faiulure to crank.
    If there are alligator clips on the voltmeter's leads, clip one to ground and the other to the start signal wire on the relay. Then when you turn the key to Start postion, it should show battery voltage; around 12.5 if it doesn't crank, something lower (like 11 Volts) if it does crank.
    upload_2019-6-10_13-53-3.png

    IF there is power at the start terminal. Then check if the neutral safety is grounding.
    You can jumper the neutral safety (make sure its in N or P) and see if it starts.
    upload_2019-6-10_13-54-52.png

    If not, its the relay.
    If it does crank, then its related to the safety switch.
     
  10. Mattax

    Mattax Just the facts, ma'am FABO Gold Member

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    Key off, turn on the parking lights and the ammeter needle should move toward Discharge. If so, its correct.
     
  11. Mattax

    Mattax Just the facts, ma'am FABO Gold Member

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    Instrument lights.
    The wiring looks the same as later years.
    Power goes to the headlight switch, then out to the fusebox through its own fuse and then to the instrument panel.

    Temperature gage high.
    Try disconnecting at the temperature sender on engine. If its still pegged then its got to be grounding out like Redfish mentioned as a possibility.
     
    Last edited: Jun 10, 2019
  12. gsoco

    gsoco gsoco

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    Maybe you can tell me if I have them reversed now based on the factory drawing...
    upload_2019-6-10_14-10-20.png

    I have them reversed now as shown with this view...does it make a big difference? I can swap them back easily enough...
     
  13. gsoco

    gsoco gsoco

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    OK. Thanks...Will get on it after it cools down...cheers.
     
  14. Mattax

    Mattax Just the facts, ma'am FABO Gold Member

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    Its not always clear which side of the electrical connector the drawing is showing.

    Compare point on the bulkhead connector and anything else that is non-symetrical to figure out what they mean.
    upload_2019-6-10_14-14-16.png
     
  15. Mattax

    Mattax Just the facts, ma'am FABO Gold Member

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    I understand now. Thanks. That's a lot easier to see. It may help @RedFish see the gage wiring too.
    It seems very specific. Viewed in direction of arrow. The steering column is to the left when view in direction of arrow, so that would be my guess.
    Well flip the lights on for second and you'll know if its backwards or not.
     
  16. gsoco

    gsoco gsoco

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    They do nothing.., but they never have....the ignition switch does nothing either...I think something is missing / fried.... Problem for me is that someone else took all this apart....so I have no memory of what was in place when it all worked....
     
  17. Mattax

    Mattax Just the facts, ma'am FABO Gold Member

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    Ahh. Now I understand where you're working from.

    Tell me if I summarize this correctly:
    * Never had working parking lights, headlights, instrument lights.
    * Ignition switch has power to it at all time (J1)

    with Key in Run ?

    * Accessory (Q2) circuit gets power.
    * Ignition Run circuit (J2) does not get power.
    * Fuel gage shows nothing, while Temperature gage shows maximum.
     
  18. gsoco

    gsoco gsoco

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    Tell me if I summarize this correctly:
    * Never had working parking lights, headlights, instrument lights. Correct.
    * Ignition switch has power to it at all time (J1). Correct.

    with Key in Run ?

    * Accessory (Q2) circuit gets power. No.
    * Ignition Run circuit (J2) does not get power. Correct.
    * Fuel gage shows nothing, while Temperature gage shows maximum. Used to but now nothing...
    Latest is that I returned the ammeter wires per factory dwg. Connected the brake light sw (which was not connected) turned key to run and the power returned to the dash - radio worked and water temp maxed out - nothing from ammeter or fuel gauge...I then turned the key to start, heard a click (I believe from the starter relay) and all went dead again. Now no power to S2 11.7 VDC at R-3... J-1 has power when key is off - goes away when turned to run...:BangHead::BangHead::BangHead:
     
    Last edited: Jun 10, 2019
  19. gsoco

    gsoco gsoco

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    MY car is a standard transmission on the column. The neutral safety circuit is run to a ground...
     
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    • Mattax

      Mattax Just the facts, ma'am FABO Gold Member

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      Yes you have a real puzzle here. We're still finding the clues.


      OK


      I'm confused on this one. I thought it might have because

      OK. That's good. So J2 gets power when the key is in run.


      This is seems like another good clue. IIRC the wire to the brake light switch on the pedal is always hot but it is fused. What your '62 may share on that line I'll have to look.

      I agree. Probably you heard the relay click.
      S2 should only have power when the key is in start. Otherwise it shpould be dead.
      R3 would only show system voltage if the key is in run, and the voltage regulator is allowing current directly through it.
       
    • gsoco

      gsoco gsoco

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    • gsoco

      gsoco gsoco

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      You're a trooper...thanks again. I am going to test the starter relay in the AM...dinner calling...Thanks again!,
      Jason
       
    • Mattax

      Mattax Just the facts, ma'am FABO Gold Member

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      Well. It's an interesting puzzle.

      Here's how the key switch should work.
      In Start.
      Power available at Ignition 2 (brown) and should show up at the ballast resistor connector J3 - J2A. Current should flow to coil whenever the points are closed.
      Power available at S2 (yellow) which should close the starter relay. (internally connecting A1 & S5)

      In Run, the switch connects power to:
      Ignition 1, J2 which should show system voltage at the ballast resistor connection with R5, (blue - blue connector)
      and on the same terminal is G5 going to the oil pressure light.
      Accessory, Q2 which supplies power to everything else that runs with the key on.

      One set of fuses gets power from a tap into Q2. They're only hot when the key is in Run.
      Another set of fuses gets power from the main splice. So they are always hot if the battery is connected.
      The instrument lamps have their own fuse - power comes from the headlight switch.
      In the diagram, your fusebox looks different but concept seems to be the same as later years.

      Returning to the clues:

      The radio and heater fuse are on the Accessory side.
      They should have nothing to do with the Brake light switch - which should always be hot.
      So, somehow wires are touching or misconnected.

      Back to the business of the ballast resistor getting very hot. That's also not right.
      Key off. No current or voltage should be there.
      In Start, it's possible the voltage regulator tries to let current through from the brown wire to the alternator field wire (green). But even so, it should not draw much current and so should not get hot.
      if it gets hot in start, there could be a short to ground anywhere in the J2 or R3 wiring.

      In Run, the only current flowing through the resistor should be going to the coil. It should get warm but not sizzling hot.
      if it is getting excessively hot in run, there's probably is short in the J3 or J2A wiring (including the coil).
       
      Last edited: Jun 11, 2019
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      • gsoco

        gsoco gsoco

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        OK. All good information...It seems this all started when I installed new components...ignition switch, starter relay and ballast resistor...I am going to put the original parts back in and see what happens and take readings per your info. More to follow...
         
      • gsoco

        gsoco gsoco

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        Took yesterday off...work and family issues...today the rain is of biblical proportion...so not sure what I'll get done. But back at it tomorrow for sure. One thing I should note: The rear tail lights, backup lights and plate light are not connected to the harness yet. Would this effect anything? Thanks again for all the insights and advice...this is truly a puzzler...Cheers.
         
        Last edited: Jun 12, 2019
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