MP 509 cam

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I run the old 509 grind advanced 4* in a stock HP 383 with a 9" convertor, it's just fine. Nice rummp and good low to high RPM performance. That said the modern grinds offer much better performance and idle quality. Some of us like old school setups and don't want to upgrade. If I had one on the shelf and wanted to use it I would. I would increase compression and run it advanced as far as I could though. Stick cars like this grind better than automatics without some decent stall.

You are only young for a short time, let him have fun!
 
rumblefish360 said:
Agreed except the single plane intake. A RPM will do the trick. A Hyd. roller is OK but a solid roller would be what I was thinking of.

The notion of needing longer valves is only needed if you have the big lift and you can do without it. A cam doesn't have to come with big lift because it is a solid roller. That would fix a lot of what he said there after. And agree about the solid lifter cam for a cheaper but still get powerful cam replacement.
My "small" solid roller is bigger @.050 than the .509 but yet it still doesn't have sky high lift. (Well, almost....)
Click to expand...
the installed height of springs is 1.685. very short, to have correct springs, you need a better and taller spring, to make it fit, you either, cut pockets down and risk hitting water or you put longer valves in to get a taller installed height. to prevent coil bind. a solid roller requires pretty stout springs, which means the wire diameter is bigger usually. a stock type spring will not work!!!
 
Yup! Got that. ;)

Having a solid roller doesn't mean high lift to that point though, just sayin....
 
yellow rose said:
A hydraulic roller is a waste of money for what you are doing. The OEM's would STILL be using flat lifters if the government stayed out of the car business.

If you don't use the cam, don let some poser talk you into a cam with a LSA wider than about 109. Any more than that and it will be a PIG, need a big split to RPM.
Click to expand...


Poser? Yeah... You sir are a dinosaur. While I would go as far as to say a solid roller would be a better choice than a hyd roller. Running 12's all day is a joke now a days. You can buy off the shelf cars that will go that fast or better and go to and from the dragstrip on the freeway with the a/c on and sit at every light on the way through town. Takek a look at the LSA's on those cams.

I've run the .509 cam. I've run the small LSA cams. If you believe that going to a wider LSA cam, especially on a street car makes it a PIG. Well, all I can say is keep believing it and spreading the word.

If I was building a race car, especially a circle track car, I'd run the smallest LSA cam I could get. Street car, nope, misery.

I just had IQ52 send me a custom cam for my car. Guess what "the poser" sent me? A solid roller with a wide 114LSA.

Pretty sure he isn't a poser.....
 
1969383S said:
I run the old 509 grind advanced 4* in a stock HP 383 with a 9" convertor, it's just fine. Nice rummp and good low to high RPM performance. That said the modern grinds offer much better performance and idle quality. Some of us like old school setups and don't want to upgrade. If I had one on the shelf and wanted to use it I would. I would increase compression and run it advanced as far as I could though. Stick cars like this grind better than automatics without some decent stall.

How loose is your Converter with this cam? Just curious. It is a component on my list of things to do when I get to that point..... For my purpose I am thinking 2800 or there abouts on the brake...

JW

You are only young for a short time, let him have fun!
Click to expand...
 
roccodart440 said:
Poser? Yeah... You sir are a dinosaur. While I would go as far as to say a solid roller would be a better choice than a hyd roller. Running 12's all day is a joke now a days. You can buy off the shelf cars that will go that fast or better and go to and from the dragstrip on the freeway with the a/c on and sit at every light on the way through town. Takek a look at the LSA's on those cams.

I've run the .509 cam. I've run the small LSA cams. If you believe that going to a wider LSA cam, especially on a street car makes it a PIG. Well, all I can say is keep believing it and spreading the word.

If I was building a race car, especially a circle track car, I'd run the smallest LSA cam I could get. Street car, nope, misery.

I just had IQ52 send me a custom cam for my car. Guess what "the poser" sent me? A solid roller with a wide 114LSA.

Pretty sure he isn't a poser.....
Click to expand...

I read through all this crap and that's what it is. Crap. It's outrageous to say the .509 cam is a dinosaur. 99% of the cams sold today by comp and the rest of the ding dongs aren't even designed with a .904 lifter, so the ramps are slow. The OP didn't say he wanted to run 8's on the street. I'd bet my bottom dollar you've never had a 12 second street car you drove every day. I used to carry in my wallet a letter to an editor from way back in the early 1980's (we're you even driving then?) and I'd give it to every joker like you who had a 500 hp Chevy or an 11 second steer car. There were THOUSANDS of those around way back then too. It was called 11 second mouths and it accurately depicted how foolish people are who think they have "X" horsepower or a certain E.T. car. There were THOUSANDS of those posers back then. Evidently, they had kids and perpetuated the foolishness. I finally wore that thing out. Should have made copies of it. It's still relevant today.

As for opening up the LSA, unless you are running a very efficient heads, you are pissing away power. It's that simple. My current cam is on a 105 LSA, installed at 105 and it will idle at 700 RPM if I'd let it.

Some people never learn.

To the OP...again, you cam will be fine. Just don't handicap it. Use a bit of gear, order a good converter, use a good SINGLE PLANE intake and run it.

If you are not willing to do that, call comp. they'll sell you some cookie cutter cam on an LSA too wide for production heads, and it don't matter whose name is on the valve cover.
 
I think the 114lsa 509 camshaft is one of the biggest POS ever produced. Might it work in some applications, sure. Put it in a stockish alleged 10:1 engine and try to get it to run decent at lower rpm ranges, good luck.

You can't wind it forward enough to get decent grunt IMO. I put the 108lsa in at 100 all the time. No chance the 114 would get anywhere close without the exhaust lobe being WAY out there at 124 LOL.
 
crackedback said:
I think the 114lsa 509 camshaft is one of the biggest POS ever produced. Might it work in some applications, sure. Put it in a stockish alleged 10:1 engine and try to get it to run decent at lower rpm ranges, good luck.

You can't wind it forward enough to get decent grunt IMO. I put the 108lsa in at 100 all the time. No chance the 114 would get anywhere close without the exhaust lobe being WAY out there at 124 LOL.
Click to expand...



Thanks for adding the numbers. Some guys don't like the math, so I usually leave it out.
 
On my 11.3/1(at that time), Eddie headed 367,streeter; that 292/509/108 cam didn't seem to run any different when installed 112,108,or104. At least my butt-dyno couldn't tell any difference. Of course the midrange was strong at any setting. The top end pull was awesome, and pulled till I lifted, any setting.
At idle and in first gear (A833), and no matter the cam-timing, nor the ignition timing,it was just too jumpy to pull itself around the parking lot without riding the clutch. Even with 4.30s out back. My conclusion was that this cam was not 4-speed street friendly. I measured mine at 249*@050 IIRC. That's pretty big for a street stick-car.I like my 276/286/110 much better. It is advertised at 230*@050. I could feel a slight loss at the top, but the smoother,easier driving,stronger, bottom end was very noticeable,and very welcome .
 
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I don't know about small blocks but that cam is a killer in 440s. I have seen a ton of low 11s cars and even some high 10s with that cam and not a lot of compression. Not saying there aren't better cams out there, but it still performs well.
 

I didn't like my Purple 292/.509 in my 360/4spd ride. (4.10 gears) The smaller cams are more street friendly and a good set of heads in top will allow good power. A win/win IMO
 
LMAO, I'm about to find out. Did I post my (that) cam spec somewhere here?

A lot depends on how the cam is cut.

Late addition edit...

It did perform well for the intended use. Idleing around town and low speed driving on the side streets was a bummer. Once on the road, different story.
 
I moved up from the .484 hyd purple to the .509 at the track, we fitted it over night for next days racing, (I was eager then), made no difference, in fact I didn't like it so much, but I only had 3.55's at the time and a 3500 verter, didn't give it a fair shout really.

We moved up to the DC. 590 sft purple cam for racing but still drove it on the road ('71 340 Cuda) now and again for sponsors events etc., wasn't any hassle in traffic, drove real good but I did have a 4200 converter and 4.30 gears by then, only bummer was cruising there at 4k rpm@56mph, only had 26" tall street tyres....couldn't get taller ones in them days, but it was a lot of fun, man that was quick on the road!!, yet only a 12.4 car at the track.....this was in the 1980's.....comp do specific cams for the .904 lifter as you know if you think the old cams are naff, just go through the long list....
http://www.compcams.com/Technical/Catalogs/CamLobeMasterCatalog.pdf
 
yellow rose said:
I read through all this crap and that's what it is. Crap. It's outrageous to say the .509 cam is a dinosaur. 99% of the cams sold today by comp and the rest of the ding dongs aren't even designed with a .904 lifter, so the ramps are slow. The OP didn't say he wanted to run 8's on the street. I'd bet my bottom dollar you've never had a 12 second street car you drove every day. I used to carry in my wallet a letter to an editor from way back in the early 1980's (we're you even driving then?) and I'd give it to every joker like you who had a 500 hp Chevy or an 11 second steer car. There were THOUSANDS of those around way back then too. It was called 11 second mouths and it accurately depicted how foolish people are who think they have "X" horsepower or a certain E.T. car. There were THOUSANDS of those posers back then. Evidently, they had kids and perpetuated the foolishness. I finally wore that thing out. Should have made copies of it. It's still relevant today.

As for opening up the LSA, unless you are running a very efficient heads, you are pissing away power. It's that simple. My current cam is on a 105 LSA, installed at 105 and it will idle at 700 RPM if I'd let it.

Some people never learn.

To the OP...again, you cam will be fine. Just don't handicap it. Use a bit of gear, order a good converter, use a good SINGLE PLANE intake and run it.

If you are not willing to do that, call comp. they'll sell you some cookie cutter cam on an LSA too wide for production heads, and it don't matter whose name is on the valve cover.
Click to expand...

Sure a tighter LSA will make more power when compared to the same cam with a wider LSA. Some of us care about the affects of the LSA in a street car. I've run the 108 version of the .509. Didn't like. Many other here are saying they didn't like it either.

I'd bet most people here don't even know how to compare ramp speed on a lobe from cam to cam. Hell many people here still use advertised duration to compare cams. The chevy lobe bit has been dispelled anyhow by prominent builders that also frequent this site.

I do have a an 11 second street car that in the nicer months in the northeast gets driven a lot. I work in a ghetto (literally) area of the northeast. I could never drive my dart there and leave it unattended. My nextdoor neighbor daily drives a 2014 Camaro SS/RS. It goes 12's. High 12's but 12's none the less.

My car makes 314hp at the wheels and goes deadly consistent 11's. It has an OD gear and happily will travel the freeway all day.

Your age doesn't define your knowledge nor your abilities. I'm 37 so no, I didn't drive in the 80's.

Since you question things, here are my 11 second rides. built by yours truly. The purple car was originally built with the .509 cam. It was ditched in lieu of a solid 284/.528/112 cam. I and the car are much happier.

Again, my new cam going in it has a 114lsa. It's a comp cam solid roller custom designed by IQ52. You know, that poser..

00F0F_gJMaPqYfZVV_600x450.jpg


20150430_162407.jpg
 
I like your stuff.

The problem is generalizing. So I will do some of my own.

Just because you don't like something, doesn't mean no one else won't.

There is more to cam timing than LSA, but LSA matters.

GM used wide LSA to make cams that were way under at .050 RPM higher. It's not a new trick. It just kills the middle and it's still weak on top. So the cam gurus split the duration and jack exhaust into it to try and get it to recover.

Blanket statements about cams are just that.

Shelf cams, for the most part, are worthless. At best, they are a significant compromise.

Now, for some rules of thumb.

Most production Pcar heads I have ever seen, any brand, don't like what are called wide LSA's. Not until you get to LS/gen III type stuff. There is a reason for that. So when I see guys using a 114 LSA they either have some bad *** heads, or the engine will be an under achiever.

LSA has very little effect on idle speed and chacteristics. 95% of idle is in your tune up. That's on you to make it idle.


BTW, don't put words into my mouth. I didn't call anyone in particular a poser. If YOUR application calls for a LSA that wide then good on you. I doubt it does. But that's just my opinion. So don't add specifics to something I didn't.
 
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rumblefish360 said:
LMAO, I'm about to find out. Did I post my (that) cam spec somewhere here?

A lot depends on how the cam is cut.

Late addition edit...

It did perform well for the intended use. Idleing around town and low speed driving on the side streets was a bummer. Once on the road, different story.
Click to expand...


I gave you the numbers from my cam. It's in 340 inches. I've only had a chance to drive it about 2 miles. Stuck my foot in it, and it started missing like beeotch and then it quit. Figured I might have killed it. Got it home, ran the valves, leaked it down, looked at the plugs (actually did it in the reverse order that I wrote it) and couldn't find an issue. It would just pop and bang. So I'm thinking it either broke the cam gear or twisted the distributor shaft. I pull the cap off and there is the rotor, all mangled and pointing 90*'s in the wrong direction.

Ain't had time to screw with it since. Just got my new front shock so I can get it lined up and start driving the pig.
 
What is mid range to you? I'm curious.

My engine, and I've built 2 very similar makes crazy low end and mid range with what I'd say is limited top end HP. It has a very broad and flat torque and HP curve. Another reason I love wide LSA's for street cars. Power all the time.

Weak on top.. or weaker, now That i'll agree on. I know damn well I'm leaving numbers on the table with that LSA and it doesn't call for it. I emphasized to Jim that I wanted very good idle and street manners. I like street manners and while tune up is a big part of it. It isn't everything. Lets also talk pump gas friendly, wider LSA reduces cranking compression.

Head dependent, I once again agree with you. My heads are decent. My new heads that go with that roller... FLOOOWW...

I can't speak to the RPM changes as my .509 was hydraulic and similar narrow LSA cams I've run were also hydraulic so The RPM range was limited by the lifters and valvetrain. My current cam has crazy low end and mid range with a limited top end HP but a broad curve. It tops out HP at 5700rpm. Peak torque is at 3500. The other engine was 5600 and 3900 respectively.
 
Here is a perfect example of what I'm talking about and literally almost the same 2 cams.

340 Head/Cam upgrade before vs after with results


Now this does coincide with what you said about the RPM range. So I have to give it to you on that note. You are spot on with increasing the RPM range while actually dropping the @.050 numbers
 
rumblefish360 said:
I didn't like my Purple 292/.509 in my 360/4spd ride. (4.10 gears) The smaller cams are more street friendly and a good set of heads in top will allow good power. A win/win IMO
Click to expand...
Yeah I found this out the expensive way too. A little hi-lift 270adv/223@050 cam can be a lot of fun with 3.55s, and OOTB Eddies.
 
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turbojerk said:
Racer Brown vintage grind... I have this one along with the 509 to use...

BTW "ronw" is my Dad and we are talking about the same build here....
Click to expand...

Jim will put the cam on any reasonable LSA you want.

Did anyone ask Jim what he thinks? If his lobe is 248@.050 that is getting up there. You open the LSA up it will kill the middle and make it run past peak further.

EDIT: don't you already have the MP cam?? If so, you are picking the fly poop out of the pepper.

I'm not a big fan of spending money twice. If you bump the 292 to a 104-105 ICL I think you would be happy.
 
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