Need tuning help on 340 (Part II)

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why can't you select a combination to lean out your cruise circuit..your idle is fine
and you want to be a little rich at wot,12 - 12.5 is fine.
i think you are pretty close and i have found the 650 Thunder to be an excellent carb.
 
Give it more timing, see how it responds. More timing will likely clean up the A/F ratios a bit. Then start leaning it down.
 
Yeah, I think I'm not too far off. And my sense is that this is a way better carb than the 600 or 750. Both of which I've run.

Idle is good. But I get A/F readings of 14-14.5 in power now (part throttle acceleration) and I'd like it a bit richer. While my cruise is already fat at 12.5 and I definitely want that leaner.

My struggle is that I am already using the 75/37 rod to keep fuel in power mode, but keep cruise lean. 75 is their fattest rod, 37 their thinnest. So I can't get a leaner cruise without jetting down, and then my "power" is leaner.

It's possible that, as crackedback suggested, if I get my jetting closer to the 41% primary/59% secondary split in jetting of the stock carb, that some of this will work better?????
 
Post a couple of pics with the warmer plugs. As a GENERAL rule, the heat line on the ground wire should be half way around the bend.

If you are using a very long nosed plug, it may not get to the middle before it runs into detonation. If you are using short nosed plugs, the heat line may have to go past the middle (closer to the shell) for correct timing.
 
be care full I was in same situation I went to the medium silver spring in the msd and the red bushing it came alive nice iput onmy 750 / 800 holley and it was a rocket . I did 3 runs before checking my plugs and think I had a little too much timing the 4rt run pretty close to the 3rd , I blew my head gasket felpro and it chipped #1 nd #8 pistons please read " left bank smoking bad " by Winstoninwisc , I I run a m1 intake with RHS X HEADS and MSD timing . whole motor tore down hope to have together by next weekend . please read my thread ,they were thinking File fit rings to tight and pre detonation + bad gas , see if any of this is what problems your having and lets share info . catch it early don't pop it earley in the spring .Jon left bank pics are first then right side

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I do have a nice race holley mech 650 for sale 300+ ride . I do believe mine was to much timing but never pinged just went up to abigger carb
 
part throttle or light acceleration is usually lean because your getting
way more air than gas...14.5 and 15.0 isn't uncommon and even a small
race cam wants to load up at idle without lots of timing...12.5 - 13.0
can be difficult to clean up.
 
This a NGK BPR5ES plug. Installed in #7 (rear cylinders run leaner and hotter) and I did two back to back runs (3/8m? part way through power band, shifted at about 4800)

Timing still at 22*/32*

Only when I hold it next to a new plug in full sun do I see a light haze (tannish?)

NGK BPR5ES 5:15:16.JPG
NGK 5:15:16.JPG
 
Wanted to check back in on this.

I still have my new Edelbrock 650 AVS jetted .104/.116, using 75/37 rods. (way bigger jets than came stock!) I have slowly worked my way up to this, from very lean with my old 750 (covered in Part I) to this carb and the current setting.

As suggested, I replaced the NGK 8's with BPR5ES plugs. This moved the "blue line" down to the base of the electrode. (farther than the above photos show at this point) The hotter plugs may have helped some with the A/F ratios, but it appears to me that I need a step or two colder plug.

Timing: I moved it up to 34* (and previously had tried 36*) and I did a bunch of driving under all conditions, then today I moved it back to 32* and this motor just seems to wake up ...and pulls noticeably harder at 32*, is very responsive, better throttle response, and sounds happy. Did some open highway, some around town, a few WOT runs, went for a country drive.

So I am jetted stupid rich, and very low total timing, but it works. With the 10* bushing limiting my mechanical I am able to run 22* initial, and 32* total, all in at about 2500 rpm.
(I have my vacuum advance limited to 10* as well, but will see how this works.)

My idle A/F is now at about 14:1 which is good. Most of my other numbers are about 1 point richer than is usually recommended, but if I ignore that, the motor seems to run better. I did a lot of runs with WOT in the 12.5 range, but it felt down on power, and was on the edge of detonating. WOT is now 11.5 or so. My cruise is around 13. I am running a 518 (...John Cope built) and in OD at 2000 rpm it seems to settle in to a 13.5 or so.

Won't get me great mileage but no more detonation happening!! And the fuel ring base of the plug is now finally showing a nice brown color. (91 octane, no ethanol)

I live about 26 miles from Heartland Park in Topeka KS (NHRA Nationals there this weekend.)
They are open for test and tune on most Friday nights so I may get over there and see how it runs on the clocks.

Thanks for all the help. Love this forum!!!
 
Wanted to check back in on this.

I still have my new Edelbrock 650 AVS jetted .104/.116, using 75/37 rods. (way bigger jets than came stock!) I have slowly worked my way up to this, from very lean with my old 750 (covered in Part I) to this carb and the current setting.

As suggested, I replaced the NGK 8's with BPR5ES plugs. This moved the "blue line" down to the base of the electrode. (farther than the above photos show at this point) The hotter plugs may have helped some with the A/F ratios, but it appears to me that I need a step or two colder plug.

Timing: I moved it up to 34* (and previously had tried 36*) and I did a bunch of driving under all conditions, then today I moved it back to 32* and this motor just seems to wake up ...and pulls noticeably harder at 32*, is very responsive, better throttle response, and sounds happy. Did some open highway, some around town, a few WOT runs, went for a country drive.

So I am jetted stupid rich, and very low total timing, but it works. With the 10* bushing limiting my mechanical I am able to run 22* initial, and 32* total, all in at about 2500 rpm.
(I have my vacuum advance limited to 10* as well, but will see how this works.)

My idle A/F is now at about 14:1 which is good. Most of my other numbers are about 1 point richer than is usually recommended, but if I ignore that, the motor seems to run better. I did a lot of runs with WOT in the 12.5 range, but it felt down on power, and was on the edge of detonating. WOT is now 11.5 or so. My cruise is around 13. I am running a 518 (...John Cope built) and in OD at 2000 rpm it seems to settle in to a 13.5 or so.

Won't get me great mileage but no more detonation happening!! And the fuel ring base of the plug is now finally showing a nice brown color. (91 octane, no ethanol)

I live about 26 miles from Heartland Park in Topeka KS (NHRA Nationals there this weekend.)
They are open for test and tune on most Friday nights so I may get over there and see how it runs on the clocks.

Thanks for all the help. Love this forum!!!


32* isn't stupid low. It's not bad. Probably not the best cam for th compression.
 
A Lunati Voodoo cam is on my list of to-do projects. Probably next years list. I suspect it would be major improvement over this low lift old design.
 
A Lunati Voodoo cam is on my list of to-do projects. Probably next years list. I suspect it would be major improvement over this low lift old design.


I know it gets redundant, but I must write this. It's like an obsession, or even a sickness. I can not over come it, so please know this is beyond my ability to control. Thank YOU.


BUY A FREAKING CUSTOM GROUND CAM. DO NOT BUY ANOTHER OFF THE SHELF CAM. THERE IS NO REASON TO DO IT. FIND A CAM GRINDER WHO YOU CAN TALK TO, NOT SOME SNOT NOSED PUNK ON THE PHONE MAKING CHUMP CHANGE. SOMEONE WHO GETS CAM DESIGN AND FUNCTION. OFF THE SHELF CAMS ARE JUST THAT. MADE FOR THE MASSES.

Sorry for yelling. It is such a simple thing, takes very little time, and ALL, EVERY SINGLE ONE of th cam guys I use WANT you to CALL them and discuss YOUR issues with them. They can grind something to correct your disfuctioning parts you have. I have listed them elsewhere before, but I do so know, in the hopes that if just one guys reads this, and gets a better part, and makes HIS hotrodding experience better then I'm all good with it. Just one guy.

Racer Brown cams. Jim Dowell. Call AFTER 5 PM ET
Cam Motion cams. I talk to Denny.
Mike Jones cams. You talk to Mike when you call.
Straub cams. Chris Straub.

All of these guys will hook you up with a much better part. You'd be surprised what couple of degrees here or there will do, or getting a bit more area under the curved, or correcting Lobe Center Angle and getting the cam installed on the correct Intake Center Line.

It all adds up to a better experience, less trial and error and less MONEY spent.

Sorry for the repititious ranting.
 
Hey, yeah some yelling. :)
And I've heard this in the background forever, but hadn't seriously considered it. And I just may this time, so no harm done.
 
I wouldn't hesitate to call Brian at IMM either and get his opinion. He could hook you up with a custom grind as well. The one in my little 340 is a beast.
 
Beyond my control too;
To get 160psi with a 284 cam, in at 110, you would need a static C/R at or near 10.8. And your Dcr might be right around 8/1. At 218*@.040, the ramps are long and gentle.
So,I don't know why you are having detonation problems at 34*.
There's lots of good help here, and it is not my intention to contradict anyone, so I'll try to word this as to what I would do.You can completely ignore me, and you won't hurt my feelings one bit.Ok here we go............
Obviously you have two problems, but there may be a third and a fourth.So let's start with the last,first.
#4) Engine loading; Vehicle weight, rear gearing and TC stall. I'm gonna guess that you have an A-body(go figure), and at least 3.55 gears, and at least a 2200stall converter.These parameters will let your 340 wind up relatively quickly, cuz the loading is relatively light.
#3) placement of the A/F sensor. This bad boy can lie to you all day long if you have installed it in the wrong place, or if air is getting into the header-pipe(s) between the exhaust valves and the sensor.So it's critical that that section of pipe be leak-free. I didn't see where yours is so, if you are in the collector, well aft of the merge, and there are no leaks in the header anywhere upstream, then you are good to go.
Next I'd like to say my spiel about timing. But it pertains to streeters only, cuz that's all I know. If you are racing you can skip over this junk.
#2) I ran a 223@050 in my 360 at 10.7Scr.with aluminum heads. My Dcr was 8.7IIRC.This will be somewhat of a skewed comparison I know.
In this configurations I ran 87E10.I ran full timing, with no detonation.Now full timing with aluminum heads can be as much as 4 or 5 degrees less than iron Xs.
The trick to running 160 plus psi With a borderline Dcr, IMO, is to delay the full timing to 3200 or more rpm and to not run as much initial as you might otherwise think correct. The reason is, until you figure out just how much is too much, it is better to run too little. Yeah it might be a little less snappy from idle to that 3200, but if you can't floor it whenever you want, what good is it?
Now I've also run a 292/508 in this same engine and am currently running a 230@050.
Enough background.
So here's what I would do.I would reset the distributor to run no more than 18 initial and top out at 36@3400. I would put a 2stage curve in there, to get about 28* at about 2800.That's what I would do. Then I would road test it, and find out if it detonates and exactly at what rpm and load setting. I would test it with midgrade fuel(assuming you are a streeter).If performance is more important to you than the price of gas, then I would fill up with top grade. I would keep a log.If it detonates at 36/3400, instead of backing down the dizzy, I would move up the point of all-in, 200 rpm at a time. If by 3800 it is still detonating, only THEN, would I back up the all-in. Of course I would start all over, with 34@3400.
But if it doesn't detonate at 36/3400, then I would reset the dizzy to get 36@3200; and retest. And so on....
Now the amount and severity of detonation can cause a change of plans. If you have heavy detonation, I would move the timing further and faster as a shortcut. If just light detonation, I would move things less and slower. Complicated chit I know.Time-consuming, you bet.But you will get to know your engine.And a melt-down gets expensive, and then there's the downtime.
That's how I used to do it.There is a plan B, which is only a tiny bit less time consuming.

#1) and finally fueling. It's been a while since I worked on a Carter, and I've not worked on an Edelbrock-Carter at all, so I can't help much there. So I'll just add a few observations.
-A), the fuel bowls need to stay at the design fuel level.This sounds elementary. And you have a fine new Blue pump, running "good" pressure. So I just want to say that the carb doesn't care one whit how much pressure the pump puts out. The absolutely only thing it cares about, is that the fuel level is correct,and stays correct,under every circumstance.So if you are chasing your tail around trying to get a rich enough mixture, you might consider the fuel level.
-B) Adequate fuel flo to keep the bowls full.This requires a VOLUME test.The amount of fuel your engine needs is based on the horsepower output. It is based on the formula that says you need 1/2 pound of fuel per hour per horsepower, then converted from pounds to gallons. Your pump has to deliver this amount, at a minimum, into the fuel bowls.
Let's say your powerhouse is making 350HP.Using the above formula,we see that the engine will need 175 pounds per hour. Well at 6 pounds per gallon that would be 29 gallons per hour. Throw in 10% extra for a safety margin and you get 32gph. (This converts to116.5Lph.) So how do you test this? Well first we need to convert this to a convenient number, let's say one minute. Doing the math, 32gph converts to 17 oz per minute. So all you have to do,is to see if the pump will deliver those 17 oz into the carb in one minute.
We start with disconnecting the hose from the carb inlet and running it into a glass jar like a 1 qt mason jar. 17 oz is a tic over a half a quart, so hit the sw and see how long it takes to fill a half jar with pure gas-no bubbles.. Less than a minute?So far so good. Now you have to prove that same test will pass into the carb. This is the critical part of the test. I will leave it to your imagination to rig up the test. The important things to think about if the pump fails to deliver this fuel into the bowls is; the size of the delivery orifices in the float valves,and that they are free from obstruction,the float-drop, and that the delivery path to the inlet is also free from obstructions. Also consider where your filter is, the size of it's in/out, and it's internal resistance to flow.
-C) the main wells, These start at the jets. The jets are the calibrated orifices. But if there is a restriction down-stream on the way to the discharge ports, you might be able to take the jets right out and never see a difference.
-D)The metering rods; again this is elementary, but the rods actually have to rise up out of the jets to put the smallest step in the hole. If yours are adjustable other than by spring(like the TQs are), and even if not, make sure they are actually doing that, and staying up.
-E) other stuff; I would not be scared to block the secondaries closed and get the primaries dialed in first.You might be surprised to find out just how hard she scoots as a 2bbl.
Ok, so, That's how I've done it in the past.
 
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Thanks for the lengthy response. Gives me a number of things to consider. Especially the thoughts on timing curve. I will look at slowing the curve some. (And the reminder to double check for any possible air leaks before the O2 sensor.)
 
I wanted to update on my progress.

First I re-checked everything ...cylinder pressure, fuel supply, no vacuum leaks, checked the 0* on balancer with a piston stop, made sure there were no air leaks ahead of my O2 sensor, etc. I also got a second timing light to make sure my readings were accurate. Then I made some changes.

Following suggestions from AJ/FormS, I changed the bushing in the MSD distributor to 14* (from 10*) mechanical advance, and used the heavier silver springs which slow the curve to all in at 3000 rpm. (I am currently set at 18*/32* for timing.) This seems to have been one main part of the problem …too fast a curve in the distributor. I was simply getting too much advance too soon. The other part is fuel, and fighting a lean condition.

As for fuel, my sense at this time is that it is pretty tough to get the Edelbrock carbs to move to a richer setting if you really need it. I am jetted three steps richer in front than what comes in the 650 AVS, and SIX steps richer in the secondaries. And I am still playing with rods, but finally the plugs are looking better!!

The spreadsheet from crackedback has been tremendously helpful in making jetting and rod changes. Thanks for that!!!

I did a 60 mile test run a couple of days ago, along with shorter drives and I'm no longer getting signs of detonation. Have held off on full WOT runs, but short full throttle blasts give me A/F of 12-12.5 so think I'm close there.

On the open road the timing felt a bit slow but it ran cool. I have the vacuum advance limited to 10* and I think I can either run more timing now, or add in more vacuum advance.

I am heading out Thursday for a 1500 mile round trip to Southern Colorado. I'll play with timing as I go, and I probably do have room to advance more than the 32* total I'm now running. (…certainly will as I gain elevation.)

I've really worked on the idle circuit tuning with vacuum gauge, this and running more initial than I was, have really cleaned up the overly rich smell I've had at idle, the 340 starts really good, runs cool, the motor sounds better, throttle response is really crisp, etc.

As summer progresses I'll be able to get to the strip and dial in the timing.

Thanks to all of you for your help!!!! Really appreciate this forum.
 
Thanks for the lengthy response. Gives me a number of things to consider. Especially the thoughts on timing curve. I will look at slowing the curve some. (And the reminder to double check for any possible air leaks before the O2 sensor.)
THAS JUST A MATTER OF GOING UP A LIITLE BIGGER BUSHING srry for capps but look at you dizzy bushing weight gotalk to crackedback he has custom sized and is genuios be carefull ,I got ancy it lit up so hard I took out2 pistons if kb pistons be ware , iwill post later , we found a week spot , go to RR ,crackback or oldmanrick or screws these guysknow mopars , especially internal
let agood dyno guytune ,if you like to get kouked out like I do .. jmo Winston HAGR812 MY FREIND
 
^^^^^^^^^Can someone interpret what this guy said for me.

It may be useful but I have NFI what he is saying.
 
Thanks for the lengthy response. Gives me a number of things to consider. Especially the thoughts on timing curve. I will look at slowing the curve some. (And the reminder to double check for any possible air leaks before the O2 sensor.)
With our budgets better running fat 20 years than lean for a 11 second 10k blown engine THATS WHAT I KNEW AND DIDNT FOLLOW MY RULES AND MURPHIES LAWS better safe than sorry I"M so bummin rite now , to top that I soldmy 69 340 and built a 71 360,what a dums *** attack GL 2 U MY BROTHER HAGR812 winstoninwisc
 
why can't you select a combination to lean out your cruise circuit..your idle is fine
and you want to be a little rich at wot,12 - 12.5 is fine.
i think you are pretty close and i have found the 650 Thunder to be an excellent carb.
keepita little fat just for piece of mind I was 2% over on timing and went poof ifi could have that ,oo2 second back I woulda lifted
 
the biiger bushing slows the timing curve down are yourunning a msd or mopar hei,petronics sounds like an msd sounds like your good for your trip run fat /rich
when you get home take that big spring back off put in the medium silver spring
the lighter bushing brings it in quicker, the heavy slower crackedback has the perfect bushing for you that the msd package does not include in the spring and correct weight bushing , just went thru all this with my 360 heavy spring heavy weight , I couldn't spin my tires If i was tied to a stump . find that perfect meduim its gr8 for the hyway if you have a low stall mineis a 3200yoursoundlike a stockorjust above like 2400. So rob said get that big spring off put on the medium silver and play the graf will show you the curve = spring and weight torpm pick up
look it up under MSD .the pack is missing 2 in between weights / bushings , wick robhas those 2 bushings /weights , I believe they are 13,14 gram . I put391 gears in so I need to be all in at 3200 to launch ,theni canleave 150 fett ofrubber in the rearview mirror , so for racing a touch to much ans at 25 mph in town I would be under my stall in first gear . with your 2200or2400 stall bam your perfect for all around usage for cruzing and hyway driving , MY dizzy set up put me in 2 catagories big whole shots, frying the tires wildly like I like but no town driving
unless 2nd gear and coast under 3200 rpms or street drag and no hyway because the gears will put meat 4300 rpms at 70 mph , so no 20 mile drives or I will kill it, buzzing the motor and over heating or wear it out fast . well you have to play with it for your perfect driving condition , or get what feels wicked quick but just 2% over and I blew my motor doing 1 more run on the way to have it tuned on the dyno I burned 2 pistons and pulled it and took in to my builder hoping for the best. go search smoking out the left bank by winstoninwisc all my pictures show you what pre detenation will start at , not including engine internals. igot lucky and had a lot of FABO FAMILY HELP in the past few weeks. with trades , sales , and donations because these people care to help you out, and know they get any help or favors back 3 fold , with my hoard now open to any gold or better member , or can prove I or we are the kind of people we want for FAMILY. I don't ask people what do you think of me , I might get the answers I don't want to here . But buy having this problem , I 100% caused my self out poors of people came tomy resque ,letting me know I try hard to have there back as well . as you are finding out , Just how tight this family is with brother hood . Good luck, check out msd distributor curve and there is mopar encyclopeidia of good knowlagable peoplein here to help NATION and WORLD WIDE . best of luck on your trip , hit hard they will have you fixed up to get there and back , and then get it correct when you get back saftley. HAGR812 winstoninwisc
 
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