Neutral Safety Switch

[RAMCTD2003]

I'm hoping somebody can help me with this problem. To say I am challenged when it comes to electrical problems is a huge understatement.

I bought and installed the Painless C.S.I. wiring harness that is very basic.
Used for charging, starting and ignition.

I have it all wired in and everything works like is should except the neutral safety switch.
I am not running a standard starter relay but through the relays that say 30,85,86,87 on the bottom by the terminals.

See the pic below to show what they say about a neutral safety switch.
Last page.

 

[Rustedwrench]

Not enough information. How do you have it wired now? Like figure 6 or 7? When you say the neutral safety switch does not work, what does it do or not do? What kind of neutral safety switch do you have? Is it like the one in the last figure to which you referred? How is it wired now? We can not know what is wrong until we know what you have and what it is doing.

 

[BillGrissom]

I read the manual, but didn't see the words you refer to, just a Mopar diagram. Anyway, I used a standard auto relay when I rewired my 65 Dart (see post, "Modernized Wiring ..."). The relay's coil are terminals 85 & 86. One terminal (coil+) connects to the "start" wire (from key, usually yellow). The other terminal (coil-) you wire to the NSS. Normally, it would go straight to ground. The NSS breaks that path to gnd until it is happy (in P or N), thus disabling the relay. If your NSS had 3 terminals (~1967+), you use only the center terminal. The outer 2 terminals are for the backup lamps. Look at your relay (and its base) to see if there is a diode symbol. If so, you must use the correct terminal (85 or 86) for coil+. I recall that 85 is normally coil-, but have seen exceptions. BTW, later cars like my 1996 Voyager (and recall my 2002 T&C) use a standard auto relay for the start circuit, exactly the same way (no computers).

 

[RAMCTD2003]

I read the manual, but didn't see the words you refer to, just a Mopar diagram. Anyway, I used a standard auto relay when I rewired my 65 Dart (see post, "Modernized Wiring ..."). The relay's coil are terminals 85 & 86. One terminal (coil+) connects to the "start" wire (from key, usually yellow). The other terminal (coil-) you wire to the NSS. Normally, it would go straight to ground. The NSS breaks that path to gnd until it is happy (in P or N), thus disabling the relay. If your NSS had 3 terminals (~1967+), you use only the center terminal. The outer 2 terminals are for the backup lamps. Look at your relay (and its base) to see if there is a diode symbol. If so, you must use the correct terminal (85 or 86) for coil+. I recall that 85 is normally coil-, but have seen exceptions. BTW, later cars like my 1996 Voyager (and recall my 2002 T&C) use a standard auto relay for the start circuit, exactly the same way (no computers).

Thanks for looking, if you look at the manual I have it wired like page 19.
I forgot to mention that this is a drag race truck only. There aren't any back up lights (or any other lights for that matter). I have the 3 prong switch. If I understand what you are saying I only need to use the center pin on the switch?

 

[Rustedwrench]

If you have your truck wired like Figure 7 on page 19 then it is easy. The purple wire from terminal 87 on the relay goes to the 12 volt terminal on the neutral switch. The center terminal out of the neutral switch then goes to the starter solenoid like the other purple wire. When you are Park or Neutral power from the start relay should go through the neutral switch to the starter solenoid.

 

[RAMCTD2003]

If you have your truck wired like Figure 7 on page 19 then it is easy. The purple wire from terminal 87 on the relay goes to the 12 volt terminal on the neutral switch. The center terminal out of the neutral switch then goes to the starter solenoid like the other purple wire. When you are Park or Neutral power from the start relay should go through the neutral switch to the starter solenoid.

Thank you. I think that will solve my problem. I appreciate your help.

 

[BillGrissom]

Thanks. You confused me by saying, "last page" in post #1 (pg 34?).

Fig. 7 won't work directly since our NSS has only 1 terminal (for NSS function). Look at Fig. 25. If you hook it to the +12 V output of the starter relay, you will get a short circuit in P or N (NSS connects its one terminal to gnd), which will likely melt the NSS and the relay, if the fuse doesn't blow fast enough.

Instead, place the NSS where the "start switch" is shown in Fig. 7 (coil- to gnd). Move that switch to the coil+ side, i.e. between the pink wire and term 86 of the "start" relay. That will make it exactly like the normal Mopar starting system (Fig. 25). Difference being you have a toggle switch instead of a key and an "ignition" relay (always a good addition). You also will be flowing only the small "coil current" thru the NSS, not the much larger "solenoid current" (thick brown wire to starter), for which it is not rated.

This kind of electrical wiring does not require a college degree, just a basic understanding of how components work. Just trace the wires with your finger, no need to think it is high-tech. Some of the "engineers" designing airplane wiring have english degrees.

 

[RAMCTD2003]

Thanks. You confused me by saying, "last page" in post #1 (pg 34?).

Fig. 7 won't work directly since our NSS has only 1 terminal (for NSS function). Look at Fig. 25. If you hook it to the +12 V output of the starter relay, you will get a short circuit in P or N (NSS connects its one terminal to gnd), which will likely melt the NSS and the relay, if the fuse doesn't blow fast enough.

Instead, place the NSS where the "start switch" is shown in Fig. 7 (coil- to gnd). Move that switch to the coil+ side, i.e. between the pink wire and term 86 of the "start" relay. That will make it exactly like the normal Mopar starting system (Fig. 25). Difference being you have a toggle switch instead of a key and an "ignition" relay (always a good addition). You also will be flowing only the small "coil current" thru the NSS, not the much larger "solenoid current" (thick brown wire to starter), for which it is not rated.

This kind of electrical wiring does not require a college degree, just a basic understanding of how components work. Just trace the wires with your finger, no need to think it is high-tech. Some of the "engineers" designing airplane wiring have english degrees.

I'm still a little confused. Place the NSS where the start switch is, I would wire the NSS as if it was the start switch, then the pink wire from term 86 will go through my toggle switch?
Would I only use the center terminal of the NSS?

 

[BillGrissom]

Exactly. The "other side" of the NSS is a connection to ground. You do see that with the "start switch", they jumper one terminal to ground? You don't need such a jumper for the NSS since it is built-in. You move the "start switch" to the "high side" of the coil, and do not connect it to ground.

If still unsure how it relates to a normal Mopar starter circuit, look-up a wiring diagram for a 90's Dodge truck. My 96 Voyager is very similar, as I recall. Indeed, the A-413 "torqueflite" tranny has the same or similar 3-prong NSS as yours, and uses a standard "Bosch" relay for the starter.

 

[DDodger]

If you have your truck wired like Figure 7 on page 19 then it is easy. The purple wire from terminal 87 on the relay goes to the 12 volt terminal on the neutral switch. The center terminal out of the neutral switch then goes to the starter solenoid like the other purple wire. When you are Park or Neutral power from the start relay should go through the neutral switch to the starter solenoid.

there is no 12V terminal on a mopar nss

 

[RAMCTD2003]

Exactly. The "other side" of the NSS is a connection to ground. You do see that with the "start switch", they jumper one terminal to ground? You don't need such a jumper for the NSS since it is built-in. You move the "start switch" to the "high side" of the coil, and do not connect it to ground.

If still unsure how it relates to a normal Mopar starter circuit, look-up a wiring diagram for a 90's Dodge truck. My 96 Voyager is very similar, as I recall. Indeed, the A-413 "torqueflite" tranny has the same or similar 3-prong NSS as yours, and uses a standard "Bosch" relay for the starter.

Forgive me for being ignorant. I learn by doing or seeing.
I would understand if you are getting frustrated.
So, 85 on the "starter relay" goes to the center pin on the NSS?
86 goes to the + side of the toggle switch?
Does the toggle still get grounded?
87goes direct to the starter solenoid on the starter?

I have tried a few scenarios and nothing has worked.

The way I have it wired without the NSS it will start and run but in all gears.

 

[Rustedwrench]

there is no 12V terminal on a mopar nss

I should have said, the terminal marked 12v on the diagram. It does not matter how it is marked, he just needs continuity through the switch in park and neutral. That is why I asked if his switch was like that pictured.

 

[BillGrissom]

Forgive me for being ignorant. I learn by doing or seeing.
I would understand if you are getting frustrated.
So, 85 on the "starter relay" goes to the center pin on the NSS?
86 goes to the + side of the toggle switch?
Does the toggle still get grounded?
87goes direct to the starter solenoid on the starter?

I have tried a few scenarios and nothing has worked.

The way I have it wired without the NSS it will start and run but in all gears.

I only get frustrated when people don't read carefully, and follow thru on looking up diagrams on the internet for guidance.

Yes, 85 to NSS

86 to a terminal of "starter switch"
+12 V to other terminal of "starter switch"
There probably is no terminal marked "+" on the starter switch, but if there is, use it for 12 V.

No. Do not connect the starter switch to gnd. I clearly said that. It is now only on the high side.

Yes. 87 goes to the starter solenoid.
Before connecting it, attach a multimeter from 87 (red probe) to gnd (blk probe) and see if it gets 12 V when you press "start". Of course, must be in P or N and must have ignition switch on.

Theory. When you get 12 V across the relay's coil (85 to 86), you should hear it click and get 12 V thru (from 30 to 87).

 

[RAMCTD2003]

I only get frustrated when people don't read carefully, and follow thru on looking up diagrams on the internet for guidance.

Yes, 85 to NSS

86 to a terminal of "starter switch"
+12 V to other terminal of "starter switch"
There probably is no terminal marked "+" on the starter switch, but if there is, use it for 12 V.

No. Do not connect the starter switch to gnd. I clearly said that. It is now only on the high side.

Yes. 87 goes to the starter solenoid.
Before connecting it, attach a multimeter from 87 (red probe) to gnd (blk probe) and see if it gets 12 V when you press "start". Of course, must be in P or N and must have ignition switch on.

Theory. When you get 12 V across the relay's coil (85 to 86), you should hear it click and get 12 V thru (from 30 to 87).

I tried like you stated above and I get nothing to the 87 terminal on the "starter relay"
when I flip the starter switch. It was in park at the time.
The 86 wire that I put to one side of the has power all of the time when toggle the ignition switch on.
When I do that 85 then has power which goes to the center pin on the NSS but again, no power to 87.

Is there a way to use the SR14 starter relay in line with the 2 relays I have or to replace the starter relay I have?

I talked to painless and they told me to connect the 87 wire to the "I" terminal on the stock relay and connect the "G" to the center pin of the NSS.
I then connected the "SOL" terminal on the factory relay to the starter solenoid.

Still nothing. No power to the starter solenoid.
Thanks for your help. I will get this if it kills me.

 

[Rustedwrench]

First of all, let me apologize for my earlier response. I don't know why but I was thinking that there was continuity through the neutral switch but the Mopar 3-terminal switch is not that way. Thank you, Bill.

Bill's description to which you responded above is correct if you have your system wired like figure 7 on page 19. You do not need to add another relay.

Replace the ground on the start switch with 12v power with ignition on.

The other side of the starter switch goes to relay terminal 86. (Bosch type relay.) You should get power through the switch when the switch is on and ignition is on.

Relay terminal 85 to the center pin of the 3-terminal neutral switch. At this point with the ignition on when you operate the start switch the relay should click if the trans is in Park or Neutral if the neutral switch is good.

Relay terminal 87 to the starter solenoid.

Relay terminal 30 to 12v battery power.

Do one step at a time. Test each part of the circuit as you finish it. You will get there.

 

[RAMCTD2003]

First of all, let me apologize for my earlier response. I don't know why but I was thinking that there was continuity through the neutral switch but the Mopar 3-terminal switch is not that way. Thank you, Bill.

Bill's description to which you responded above is correct if you have your system wired like figure 7 on page 19. You do not need to add another relay.

Replace the ground on the start switch with 12v power with ignition on.

The other side of the starter switch goes to relay terminal 86. (Bosch type relay.) You should get power through the switch when the switch is on and ignition is on.

Relay terminal 85 to the center pin of the 3-terminal neutral switch. At this point with the ignition on when you operate the start switch the relay should click if the trans is in Park or Neutral if the neutral switch is good.

Relay terminal 87 to the starter solenoid.

Relay terminal 30 to 12v battery power.

Do one step at a time. Test each part of the circuit as you finish it. You will get there.

Thanks for the response. So I could take the pink wire that is on 86 now and run it to the start switch. The other side of the start switch would go back to 86 on the starter relay.

I will try it as soon as I find a replacement 70 amp Maxi fuse. It blew today when I obviously had it wired wrong.

Is there a way to test the NSS to make sure it is working?

Thanks again.

 

[nm9stheham]

Use the ohmmeter section of you meter; connect one lead to ground (clean chassis) and the other to the switch connection. You should measure around 0 ohms through the switch when in neutral or park and very high ohms when in any gear.

Or use a 12v test light; connect one side to the + battery terminal and the other to the NSS connection. It should light only when in park or neutral.

 

[RAMCTD2003]

Use the ohmmeter section of you meter; connect one lead to ground (clean chassis) and the other to the switch connection. You should measure around 0 ohms through the switch when in neutral or park and very high ohms when in any gear.

Or use a 12v test light; connect one side to the + battery terminal and the other to the NSS connection. It should light only when in park or neutral.

Thanks for the info.

 

[RAMCTD2003]

I would like to say thank you to everybody who responded to my post.
I was having a difficult time understanding but after your help and working through
it I was able to get it to work. Now I have to get a new NSS. There is continuity when in neutral but not park. Also verified by checking the starter solenoid wire when I hit the start switch. 12v when in neutral and nothing when in park.

Thanks again, you guys rock!!!

 

[Rustedwrench]

Thanks for the response. So I could take the pink wire that is on 86 now and run it to the start switch. The other side of the start switch would go back to 86 on the starter relay.

Yes, after removing the ground connection to the starter switch.

I will try it as soon as I find a replacement 70 amp Maxi fuse. It blew today when I obviously had it wired wrong.

Is there a way to test the NSS to make sure it is working?

Thanks again.

Use your meter or test light to test the neutral switch. Positive meter lead on power and negative meter lead on the center terminal of the neutral switch. You should show voltage on the meter in Park or Neutral only, no voltage in Drive and Reverse positions.

 

[BillGrissom]

Now I have to get a new NSS. There is continuity when in neutral but not park. ...

Sounds like your NSS is fine and the tranny shift linkage needs adjusting or new bushings. It is common in many cars to lose the ability to crank in P, but works in N (or if you jiggle the shifter around N). My 1985 M-B was like that, plus made rattling sounds until I changed the plastic shifter bushings.

If really concerned, remove the NSS and test it with your hand. Should measure open from center pin to case w/ the tip pushed in and continuity w/ the tip extended.

 

[nm9stheham]

Yes, the switch sounds OK if it works in neutral. Be aware that there are at least 3 different types of switch detent types in the trannies, called "****'scombs". If the wrong on is in your trannie, the switch will not be activiated when it should. Also, I understand there are 2 different switches and depths.