Not really sure where to start, need help..

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Expire

Expire

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So I finally got the Duster delivered to my house and the engine area is a lot worse than anticipated. A lot of rust. I'm kind of at the point where I'm not really sure where to even start. I tried to spin the fan by hand but it's pretty tight, my guess is because it's rusted, or no oil. I know the car won't start at this current time.

What should I look into doing?

I picked up a gal. of 15w40 Rotella oil, ignition wires, champion spark plugs, STP oil filter, just to do some basic maintenance. Is there any use trying to de rust the engine bay before?

The underside is kind of rough but I don't see any rot/cancer, just rust. Really just overwhelmed since it's the first time I saw the car. Any advice or how tos would be great!
 
Expire said:
So I finally got the Duster delivered to my house and the engine area is a lot worse than anticipated. A lot of rust. I'm kind of at the point where I'm not really sure where to even start. I tried to spin the fan by hand but it's pretty tight, my guess is because it's rusted, or no oil. I know the car won't start at this current time.

What should I look into doing?

I picked up a gal. of 15w40 Rotella oil, ignition wires, champion spark plugs, STP oil filter, just to do some basic maintenance. Is there any use trying to de rust the engine bay before?

The underside is kind of rough but I don't see any rot/cancer, just rust. Really just overwhelmed since it's the first time I saw the car. Any advice or how tos would be great!
Click to expand...

First try cleaning it off with a hose.

then clean the engine bay with a hose.

then see if the engine will turn over by hand or cranking. If you need to do it by hand, get a 1/2" ratchet with a 3" or 6" extension (whatever you can fit in there) and a 1 1/4" socket to fit over the big bolt head for the vibration damper. Then try to turn it over. If it turns over by hand, then make sure that it is full of good clean oil and try cranking her.

(you may want to remove spark plugs also when you are trying to crank it over by hand).

Now would be a good time to do a compression test. First do the cylinder dry, then put a few squirts of oil in the cylinder and redo the compression test for that cylinder. Record the readings for each cylinder for each wet and dry. If you don't know what he numbers mean, you can post them and we can let you know what we see. The results of the compression test will indicate if you should then proceed with trying to start it, or pull it for a rebuild.

Take a look at the old oil when you drain it to see how dirty it is. This can give you an idea of how much care the previous owners took of it.

Post some pictures of the car from different angles from outside and also get some different shots of the engine compartment and we can comment on what we see and you should look at.
 
krazykuda said:
First try cleaning it off with a hose.

then clean the engine bay with a hose.

then see if the engine will turn over by hand or cranking. If you need to do it by hand, get a 1/2" ratchet with a 3" or 6" extension (whatever you can fit in there) and a 1 1/4" socket to fit over the big bolt head for the vibration damper. Then try to turn it over. If it turns over by hand, then make sure that it is full of good clean oil and try cranking her.

(you may want to remove spark plugs also when you are trying to crank it over by hand).

Now would be a good time to do a compression test. First do the cylinder dry, then put a few squirts of oil in the cylinder and redo the compression test for that cylinder. Record the readings for each cylinder for each wet and dry. If you don't know what he numbers mean, you can post them and we can let you know what we see. The results of the compression test will indicate if you should then proceed with trying to start it, or pull it for a rebuild.

Take a look at the old oil when you drain it to see how dirty it is. This can give you an idea of how much care the previous owners took of it.

Post some pictures of the car from different angles from outside and also get some different shots of the engine compartment and we can comment on what we see and you should look at.
Click to expand...

Thanks Krazy,

when you mention cranking, do you mean buy starting with key, or spinning with the ratchet? Should I worry about hitting anything with the hose when cleaning it?

I'm working from my parent's garage and don't think I have all the tools for a compression test or any specific diagnostics, any idea on those? I plan on going BB, but would like to get this running so I can sell it atleast.

I bought the car from Orig. owner with 70k on it, so I'm assuming it wasn't really wrecked, but who knows. At the end of it, I only paid $400 for it, but would definitely like to get it running.
 
Firstly remove spark plugs, spray a liberal amount of WD40 (US equivalent?) down each cylinder....let it soak for couple hours. Repeat spraying 2 or 3 times more, THEN ONLY try to rotate by HAND. Attempting to crank a locked engine may cause damage to starter motor, or internals of engine. Once you have it turning by hand, do the oil/plugs change.

There is more to firing up a no runner than simply adding fuel.

Keep us updated.

Ters.
 
Ters said:
Firstly remove spark plugs, spray a liberal amount of WD40 (US equivalent?) down each cylinder....let it soak for couple hours. Repeat spraying 2 or 3 times more, THEN ONLY try to rotate by HAND. Attempting to crank a locked engine may cause damage to starter motor, or internals of engine. Once you have it turning by hand, do the oil/plugs change.

There is more to firing up a no runner than simply adding fuel.

Keep us updated.

Ters.
Click to expand...
^^^ THIS is first in doing anything to turn/start the engine. See if the engine will free up and turn by hand first is there is any question as to the condition inside. The /6 does not usually come with a bolt on the snout of the crankshaft to make it easy to turn, but the threads are there, inside the center of the front crank pulley. Clean the threads out (they are often oily and dirt filled), and then get a 2" long 3/4" dia x 16 tpi bolt and flat washer to put in there. Then you will have a good spot to turn the crank with a wrench or socket.

BTW, turning a /6 by hand with the fan can be done if you know the technique but is tough if the compression is good. Since you are new to this, put the bolt in.

Set aside the 15W40 Rotella for initial start up; it is kinda heavy. Start with some 5W30 oil; that will get pulled up by the pump much more easily and give the best chance of quick oiling at initial startup.

Pull the valve cover and examine the inside and see how much sludge is inside that area. Post a pix if you can. You are going to have to pull this valve cover to adjust the valve lash which is one of the first things to do on a /6. What year is this car/engine?

A compression tester can be borrowed from a box store like Autozone on their loaner tool program. Compression testing is an important thing to do early on an engine of unknown condition.

Drop and clean out the gas tank and fuel line THOROUGHLY BEFORE you put gas into it and start the engine. This is a big problem area for all old cars. I know it is a bit of work, BUT any old fuel or residue will get into the carb and into the intake valve guides. It will gum up the carb badly and gum up the intake valve stems. When this happens, the valves often stick, and you end up with bent pushrods on the /6.

It is a bit of work, but all of this is done for good reason.
 
Expire said:
Thanks Krazy,

when you mention cranking, do you mean buy starting with key, or spinning with the ratchet? Should I worry about hitting anything with the hose when cleaning it?

I'm working from my parent's garage and don't think I have all the tools for a compression test or any specific diagnostics, any idea on those? I plan on going BB, but would like to get this running so I can sell it atleast.

I bought the car from Orig. owner with 70k on it, so I'm assuming it wasn't really wrecked, but who knows. At the end of it, I only paid $400 for it, but would definitely like to get it running.
Click to expand...

First try to crank the engine over with the starter, as I didn't realize in my first post that this is a slant 6, so you won't have the crank 1 1/4" bolt to use to spin it by hand...

No, it won't hurt to spray everything underhood with a hose. If you are going to start it right away, then don't spray the distributor or electronic ignition module or they won't make a spark wet, but will if they dry off a bit...

You can get a compression test gauge from Sears or NAPA for around $50 give or take. If you're going to keep working on engines, it's a good thing to have...
 
Alright here's where I am at right now

Pulled plugs and wires, doused with penetration oil, am now able to grab the fan by the blades and spin counter clockwise. It has a bit of resistance while turning.

Not sure if my battery is good atm so I can't crank from key, but I do hear a whine, like an alternator charge when spinning blade.

What's next? Change oil? New battery? Change plugs?
 
nm9stheham said:
^^^ THIS is first in doing anything to turn/start the engine. See if the engine will free up and turn by hand first is there is any question as to the condition inside. The /6 does not usually come with a bolt on the snout of the crankshaft to make it easy to turn, but the threads are there, inside the center of the front crank pulley. Clean the threads out (they are often oily and dirt filled), and then get a 2" long 3/4" dia x 16 tpi bolt and flat washer to put in there. Then you will have a good spot to turn the crank with a wrench or socket.

BTW, turning a /6 by hand with the fan can be done if you know the technique but is tough if the compression is good. Since you are new to this, put the bolt in.

Set aside the 15W40 Rotella for initial start up; it is kinda heavy. Start with some 5W30 oil; that will get pulled up by the pump much more easily and give the best chance of quick oiling at initial startup.

Pull the valve cover and examine the inside and see how much sludge is inside that area. Post a pix if you can. You are going to have to pull this valve cover to adjust the valve lash which is one of the first things to do on a /6. What year is this car/engine?

A compression tester can be borrowed from a box store like Autozone on their loaner tool program. Compression testing is an important thing to do early on an engine of unknown condition.

Drop and clean out the gas tank and fuel line THOROUGHLY BEFORE you put gas into it and start the engine. This is a big problem area for all old cars. I know it is a bit of work, BUT any old fuel or residue will get into the carb and into the intake valve guides. It will gum up the carb badly and gum up the intake valve stems. When this happens, the valves often stick, and you end up with bent pushrods on the /6.

It is a bit of work, but all of this is done for good reason.
Click to expand...

I'll pull the valve cover now, it's all rusty, so yeah. But do you have a tutorial dropping the tank? I have all 4 flats so I can't jack the car up very high, but I should be able to reach under.


EDIT: Got my garage cpu up now, should be able to update with some pics, just removed valve cover.

23w01s6.png



EDIT x2: got a compression tester and currently charging battery and gapping my new spark plugs, can I test for compression with the valve cover off? or Do I need to reassemble everything?
 
Yes, you can test for compression with the valve cover off. The pix under the valve cover is good; does not look too awfully bad. I've seen more than 10X that amount of caked on old oil crud on things.

That sure is a lot of dirt and crap on the intake and exhaust manifolds. Carefully pick that stuff off and keep it out of the engine.

Since you need a new valve cover gasket, get one (preferrably the rubber one) and use a very thin skim coat of RTV on the under side of the valve cover and carefully place the gasket on and let it set for awhile. It will act like a weak glue to keep the gasket in place while you place it back on the engine. The rubber gasket will be re-usable a few times.

BTW, you spin thing CW, not CCW. But at least it is moving. That is a good sign. I would keep applying some penetrating oil a bit at time and turn the engine over a few times, just to get thing loosened up. The pistons and rings are not stuck in the cylinders now, but the rings have to be free in the piston ring grooves; so working it more with more oil will loosen that up. Marvel Mystery Oil is a common recommendation for that; it frees AND lubricates better than regular penetrating oil. You can do more to help the rings later when you get the engine running.

While you are freeing up rings and such, use a squirter to squirt MM Oil between the coils of the valve springs. The idea is to try to get some MM Oil on the valves stems and down the valve guides, so they are well lubed at start up and hopefully won't stick. Put a lot in there so at least some gets where it needs to go. The rest will run down around the lifters, which is good. DO the MM Oil and hand turning several times and vale stem lubing before changing the oil.

When yo do change oil. pour at least half a bottle over the valve train up top; actually, you can just slowly dump it all in with the valve cover off. (And put 1/4 quart in the oil filter, you can't put in much or it will just run out when you install the filter.) I woudl change the oil before running the compression test.

Once you get some of this basic cleanup and freeing of parts done, then set valve lash, and then run the compression checks. The fuel system can come after the compression test; just disconnect the rubber line from the input of the fuel pump so you don't draw dirt and rust and gum up from the tank while you crank the engine.

For the tank, it can even be pulled flat on the ground without too much trouble. You need to get the fuel line and ground wire and fuel gauge wire off the front of the tank, up behind the rear axle. Then get the filler tube out; it inserts into the tank in a round rubber gasket; that process varies with car model. Then there should be a strap under the tank held with 1 or 2 bolts that you loosen and drop the tank. Get the old fuel out. If it had ethanol in it, that will absorb water and the slowly turn into a gummy gel and that has to be dissolved out with fresh gas or another solvent. Inspect inside carefully for rust; if so, then there are ways to get a lot of that out with gravel, nuts &bolts, etc.

Disconnect the rubber hose form the fuel line to the fuel pump up by the engine. Blow the fuel line out. Replace all rubber fuel hoses now. Once this fuel system cleaning is done and the new lines a fuel is in, you can crank the engine with the fuel line off the carb and routed into a bucket or can and check for a good pulsed stream of fuel, and check fuel delivery. That is a 1st basic check of the fuel pump.

This adds up to a lot of work, but the biggest mistake is to try to jump straight into a running engine and let problems make themselves worse with running while things are not right.
 
Expire said:
EDIT x2: got a compression tester and currently charging battery and gapping my new spark plugs, can I test for compression with the valve cover off? or Do I need to reassemble everything?
Click to expand...

You can compression test with the valve cover off. Worst case, a little oil may leak, no biggie...


The picture with the valve cover off looks pretty good. Like stated above, there's much worse...

Do a compression test on each cylinder wet and dry and post the results.
 
Alright, that's a ton of info but here is wher I am at right now.

I sprayed penetrating oil down the sparkplug holes around 4 times, I haven't tried to crank going CW, since it looked like it loosened a belt? It spins CCW with ease now. I removed all the oil from the pan, but when I went to put on a new filter I couldn't remove the old one. I bought a oil filter wrench and some Marvels. Will be doing the rest of oil filter and pouring onto the valves. I need to check Autozone for a gasket, advanced auto was out.

So that's where I am at right now. Is there a tutorial on setting the valve lash?
 
If you are using penetrating oil like PB Blaster or Liquid Wrench, make sure to put some Marvel Mystery Oil in there next. The regular penetrating oils don't have good lubricating properties. You should be able to get it at any box auto parts store.

If the oil filter doesn't come off, then you're down to the old trick of driving a long screwdriver through it and using that as leverage to twist it off. Some penetrating oil there will be a good idea.

Well, CW is the way it runs. Try to turn it CW from now on to make sure it is all free. If you turn it too much CCW, it may push the cam forward; it may not be any issue but not the best idea as it may do something to the oil pump gear. There is no cam thrust plate on the /6 and it depends on the oil pump load to pull it back and keep it back in position when turning CW only.

If you know how to set valve lash, set it at .012" intake and .022" exhaust to get close. You use a feeler gauge set, turn the engine a bit at a time, and set the valves when they are fully closed. Do a search in this forum for the details.
 
Expire said:
Alright, that's a ton of info but here is wher I am at right now.

I sprayed penetrating oil down the sparkplug holes around 4 times, I haven't tried to crank going CW, since it looked like it loosened a belt? It spins CCW with ease now. I removed all the oil from the pan, but when I went to put on a new filter I couldn't remove the old one. I bought a oil filter wrench and some Marvels. Will be doing the rest of oil filter and pouring onto the valves. I need to check Autozone for a gasket, advanced auto was out.

So that's where I am at right now. Is there a tutorial on setting the valve lash?
Click to expand...

With the valve cover off, crank the engine over until you see the exhaust rocker arm close, then the intake. When the intake fully closes, then you are on both base circles for the cam and should be able to set the lash for that cylinder.

Repeat for each cylinder...
 
First, you should turn the engine in the normal direction of rotation and that's clockwise. Secondly, WD40 is not a lubricant. Never was, never will be. It was invented by the US military to displace water and was their 40th attempt. Hence the name. WD40. It was invented to displace moisture in tank and truck distributors. Works good for that, too.

Since you do have it turning, at this point, I wouldn't worry about sloshin anything else in those cylinders. There is a thing called hydrolock. Trust me, you don't want to accidentally find out what it is.

That cylinder head area under the valve cover looks GREAT! Looks like it's a runner for sure. At this point since the plugs are out, I would opt for the compression test and see what that looks like.
 
krazykuda said:
With the valve cover off, crank the engine over until you see the exhaust rocker arm close, then the intake. When the intake fully closes, then you are on both base circles for the cam and should be able to set the lash for that cylinder.

Repeat for each cylinder...
Click to expand...

can you point out what is the rocker arm/intake that closes?
 
Every engine wants to run. You just need to figure out why it dont,and the needs are basic. Spark,fuel and compression.That is all.
 
The rocker arms are the horizontal pieces that rock back and forth as the engine turns. The pushrods are the long thin round /tubular things coming up from the side deep side compartment in the engine, and push up on one end of the rockers. The other end of the rockers push down on the top tips of the valves. The feeler gauge is slipped between the rocker and the valve tip to measure the gap, or lash. You adjust the nut on the pushrod end to open or close that gap.

Having said all that.....Go on to the Inet and read up on the engine parts. Learn the difference between the intake and exhaust manifold and then you will know which valves are intakes and which are exhaust. (No one here is paid and no one is here to tell you every little thing, just the key things or what anyone feels like spending the time.)

Don't worry about a bit more lube in the cylinders llike MM oil, IMO; if it is light oil, it will seep down past the rings. Since you have drained the oil, you don't want to be putting any more penetrating oil in there; it is not for lubrication.

BTW, sent you a PM. And you're doin' great... keep up the good work!
 
BTW, to find the correct points in engine rotation to adjust the lash:
1. Rotate the engine CW and watch a valve pair for a given cylinder. Watch the exhaust valve movement, and when it starts to close, stop the engine rotation where it is almost closed and you see the intake valve of that pair starting to open. That is the overlap point. Mark the crankshaft pulley at that point.
2. Turn the engine so that the crankshaft pulley turns 1/2 turn CW from the overlap point and stop again. Adjust the exhaust valve lash.
3. The turn the engine another 3/4 turn CW and stop again. Adjust the intake valve lash.

Repeat this procedure for each valve pair for each cylinder. There are ways to shortcut this, but if you are new to the procedure and to engines, this will always work.
 
In post #3, you said you plan to pull the slant out and sell it. Before you put too much labor into it, realize that many here couldn't even give away a perfectly running slant & tranny for over a year, so took them to the dump. That is good for us that stay slant, but not for you. You would be real lucky to get $200 for the engine & tranny if running well, and maybe $100 as is, so decide if worth your time.
 
Expire said:
can you point out what is the rocker arm/intake that closes?
Click to expand...

Trace the ports to see which valves are intake or exhaust.

If the valve is next to the intake runner, then it's intake...

If it is in line with the exhaust manifold, then it's exhaust...

Pretty simple if you just reason it out...
 
Expire said:
can you point out what is the rocker arm/intake that closes?
Click to expand...

here they are labelled for each cylinder. When the intake closes for each cylinder, then it is on the base circle and you can adjust the valves.

Watch the pair for each cylinder and make sure that you notice that the two intakes for #3 & #4 cylinder are next to each other...

I hope that you can follow what I'm trying to say...

View attachment 23w01s6 B.jpg

The silver manifold that stands out on top is the intake manifold and all of the intake valves line up/(are next to) with the ports for the intake.

The rusty one on the bottom is the exhaust, and the exhaust valves line up with those ports...

View attachment Dart Wgn Eng A04 B.jpg
 
krazykuda said:
here they are labelled for each cylinder. When the intake closes for each cylinder, then it is on the base circle and you can adjust the valves.

Watch the pair for each cylinder and make sure that you notice that the two intakes for #3 & #4 cylinder are next to each other...

I hope that you can follow what I'm trying to say...

View attachment 1714848610

The silver manifold that stands out on top is the intake manifold and all of the intake valves line up/(are next to) with the ports for the intake.

The rusty one on the bottom is the exhaust, and the exhaust valves line up with those ports...

View attachment 1714848611
Click to expand...

Thanks for all the help guys, I was on the phone with nm9stheham on sunday and he really helped piece everything together.

As of right now, the whole engine is sealed back up and I tried to start it to see if I could maybe get a compression test before heading back home to Wexford, but I have a few electrical things to work out.

As of right now, turning the key on will turn all the electrics (lights, seatbelt buzzer, dash, etc) on but if I go to crank it, I have no crank/turnover. All the while, the hazard button on my wheel will heat up in about 20secs of the key being on. The heating hazard button leads me to believe there is a short in a wire somewhere, but I also believe I might need a new starter. Any thoughts on this kind of issue?

I'm gonna head over to the Electrical section of forum to see what I can find.
 
Definitely go to the electrical forum. When you get to running the compression test. PLEASE pull off the rubber fuel line from the fuel pump if you have not cleaned the tank to avoid pulling garbage up into the carb and engine.

Let us know how the rust evaluation of the body goes. One thing in favor of the /6 if this moves forward: it is a fairly easy and less expensive training ground for engines IMO.
 
nm9stheham said:
Definitely go to the electrical forum. When you get to running the compression test. PLEASE pull off the rubber fuel line from the fuel pump if you have not cleaned the tank to avoid pulling garbage up into the carb and engine.

Let us know how the rust evaluation of the body goes. One thing in favor of the /6 if this moves forward: it is a fairly easy and less expensive training ground for engines IMO.
Click to expand...

When we tried we sprayed some gas into the carb and caped the fuel line into a bottle. But like I said, I think it's a battery issue, I'll have to look into it.
 
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