Isn't that the truth!!
Old school alignment guys; gauge mount idea. What am I missing?
- Thread starter DionR
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DionR
Well-Known Member
So this is what I decided to use:
I know there are some inaccuracies with this, but I figure it will be close enough.
To do the sweep measurements I offset my turn plates some, drew a line along the edge of the top one and then cut a piece of cardboard at 20 degrees to verify the angle. I might 3D print a 20 degree wedge later, time will tell.
I also continued to use the tape and marks on the steering wheel. That proved to be smooth and easy. Once I verified the marks, I could turn the wheel to the mark and verify with the cardboard. Worked well for me.
Initial measurements were:
Caster L/R: 4.25/5.0 Camber L/R: -0.49/0.25
Toe was 1/8" in
Final settings:
Caster L/R: 4.75/5.0 Camber L/R: -0.75/-1.0
Toe was 1/16" in
I intentionally used less caster and camber on the left to help with the crown of the road. But it was just a guess as to how much. Late Model Challengers have 0.30-0.40 less camber and 0.7 less caster on the left, but they also run 8-9 degrees of caster so it felt like too much to offset it that far.
Unfortunately, whatever issue I have been chasing wasn't the steering box nor the alignment. I drove it after swapping the boxes with the prior alignment and it felt like the twitchiness was gone, but with the new settings it is back.
I have to say, having the caster/camber gauge locked to the hub was so nice. Pretty pleased with the part, even if I know it might be off a little for lots of different reasons. I might jack it up at some point and see what the runout is, but for now I think it is more than good enough.
I know there are some inaccuracies with this, but I figure it will be close enough.
To do the sweep measurements I offset my turn plates some, drew a line along the edge of the top one and then cut a piece of cardboard at 20 degrees to verify the angle. I might 3D print a 20 degree wedge later, time will tell.
I also continued to use the tape and marks on the steering wheel. That proved to be smooth and easy. Once I verified the marks, I could turn the wheel to the mark and verify with the cardboard. Worked well for me.
Initial measurements were:
Caster L/R: 4.25/5.0 Camber L/R: -0.49/0.25
Toe was 1/8" in
Final settings:
Caster L/R: 4.75/5.0 Camber L/R: -0.75/-1.0
Toe was 1/16" in
I intentionally used less caster and camber on the left to help with the crown of the road. But it was just a guess as to how much. Late Model Challengers have 0.30-0.40 less camber and 0.7 less caster on the left, but they also run 8-9 degrees of caster so it felt like too much to offset it that far.
Unfortunately, whatever issue I have been chasing wasn't the steering box nor the alignment. I drove it after swapping the boxes with the prior alignment and it felt like the twitchiness was gone, but with the new settings it is back.
I have to say, having the caster/camber gauge locked to the hub was so nice. Pretty pleased with the part, even if I know it might be off a little for lots of different reasons. I might jack it up at some point and see what the runout is, but for now I think it is more than good enough.
I agree. For no more trouble than it would be you should jack it up and check the runout.So this is what I decided to use:
View attachment 1716467997
View attachment 1716467998
I know there are some inaccuracies with this, but I figure it will be close enough.
To do the sweep measurements I offset my turn plates some, drew a line along the edge of the top one and then cut a piece of cardboard at 20 degrees to verify the angle. I might 3D print a 20 degree wedge later, time will tell.
View attachment 1716467999
View attachment 1716468000
I also continued to use the tape and marks on the steering wheel. That proved to be smooth and easy. Once I verified the marks, I could turn the wheel to the mark and verify with the cardboard. Worked well for me.
Initial measurements were:
Caster L/R: 4.25/5.0 Camber L/R: -0.49/0.25
Toe was 1/8" in
Final settings:
Caster L/R: 4.75/5.0 Camber L/R: -0.75/-1.0
Toe was 1/16" in
I intentionally used less caster and camber on the left to help with the crown of the road. But it was just a guess as to how much. Late Model Challengers have 0.30-0.40 less camber and 0.7 less caster on the left, but they also run 8-9 degrees of caster so it felt like too much to offset it that far.
Unfortunately, whatever issue I have been chasing wasn't the steering box nor the alignment. I drove it after swapping the boxes with the prior alignment and it felt like the twitchiness was gone, but with the new settings it is back.
I have to say, having the caster/camber gauge locked to the hub was so nice. Pretty pleased with the part, even if I know it might be off a little for lots of different reasons. I might jack it up at some point and see what the runout is, but for now I think it is more than good enough.
So this is what I decided to use:
View attachment 1716467997
View attachment 1716467998
I know there are some inaccuracies with this, but I figure it will be close enough.
To do the sweep measurements I offset my turn plates some, drew a line along the edge of the top one and then cut a piece of cardboard at 20 degrees to verify the angle. I might 3D print a 20 degree wedge later, time will tell.
View attachment 1716467999
View attachment 1716468000
I also continued to use the tape and marks on the steering wheel. That proved to be smooth and easy. Once I verified the marks, I could turn the wheel to the mark and verify with the cardboard. Worked well for me.
Initial measurements were:
Caster L/R: 4.25/5.0 Camber L/R: -0.49/0.25
Toe was 1/8" in
Final settings:
Caster L/R: 4.75/5.0 Camber L/R: -0.75/-1.0
Toe was 1/16" in
I intentionally used less caster and camber on the left to help with the crown of the road. But it was just a guess as to how much. Late Model Challengers have 0.30-0.40 less camber and 0.7 less caster on the left, but they also run 8-9 degrees of caster so it felt like too much to offset it that far.
Unfortunately, whatever issue I have been chasing wasn't the steering box nor the alignment. I drove it after swapping the boxes with the prior alignment and it felt like the twitchiness was gone, but with the new settings it is back.
I have to say, having the caster/camber gauge locked to the hub was so nice. Pretty pleased with the part, even if I know it might be off a little for lots of different reasons. I might jack it up at some point and see what the runout is, but for now I think it is more than good enough.
When you switched steering boxes did you change anything other than the steering box? Pitman, idler, etc?
If you have a joint that's hanging up it can make it feel twitchy, the joint grabbing/sticking and then suddenly releasing can make the whole steering system feel twitchy. So like tie rod ends or the joint in the pitman and idler. Either that or you have something that's dramatically loose or failed that's moving around.
I wouldn't think that with that amount of caster and camber you should have anything that feels twitchy. Although for the record I run the same camber/caster settings left and right, I don't try to correct for road crown. Part of that is my commute has too many different kinds of roads, freeway, rural roads with widely varying amounts of crown from none to severe, and highways with mild crowning. But all of it is relatively curvy so other than the freeway I'm usually turning one way or another regardless. The road crown thing I've always just found to be an issue on long, straight, crowned roads where you actually notice that you have the hold the wheel left to go straight. If you're constantly turning its not really noticeable, so I make my alignment the same on both sides and just deal with it. Where I'm driving one setting wouldn't cover it and I'd rather have it be dead straight on the freeway anyway.
DionR
Well-Known Member
Only thing I changed was the high pressure hose, coupler and steering shaft. Coupler/shaft changed because I was using the Bergman coupler and didn't want to take it all apart again so I used a shaft with (I think) a decent PS couple.
Pitman arm was the same one I ran on the Borgeson box, and was new when I installed that. Idler has been replaced this summer thinking it was old and seizing up, but that didn't fix the issue. UCA's have been replaced with SPC units, LBJ's appear to be good after inspecting. LCA pivots are older poly units, but they don't appear to have any wear. Struts are QA1 adjustable one. Only thing I haven't replaced is the tie rod ends, but visual inspection and wiggling them doesn't show anything that fits the problem.
The best way to describe the issue so far is to compare it to the feeling you get when you ride a motorcycle on a gravel road. The feeling that the bike is moving around under you. That's how the car feels, like it is moving around under me. Not really pulling or changing direction, although it feels like it could. It's feels like something is loose and moving around. But I can't find anything loose or broken. I've wiggled and pried on everything I can find, even taken stuff like the shocks off to make sure they aren't junk.
I had a tire engineer describe what a tire with broken cords feels like and it seemed like a possible match so I had a friend help me by dismounting the tires to visually check for issues on the inside. The engineer said a broken belt will show itself on the inside before you see it on the outside. Couldn't find any issues. Even spun the tires to watch for a bent wheel, rebalanced them and rotated them.
When the issue cropped up, it was sudden. Like something broke. Drove it out to a car club meeting just outside of town and it was all fine. An hour and a half later, it was weird and twitchy. At that time, it did have a pretty good pull, one that changed directions suddenly, usually when you were fighting to keep it going one way and all the sudden it was going the way you were steering.
I have some custom swaybar links that I think I will remove. If that doesn't fix it, I will probably get the mockup tires I bought mounted on a pair of my 18" wheels and swap them on to see if that helps. I only have a pair so it will take some messing around. My only guess right now is that I have a bad tire and it hasn't gotten bad enough to be seen visually yet. But I don't want to spend $6-800 on tires right now so I want to try and test the theory first. Oh, and the tires are 7+ years old.
Kind of toying with putting the '74 back to a more stock setup, too. Swap the 11.75" brakes on from the '73, stock UCA's with offset bushings and standard strut rods. Save the good stuff for the '73. Then I could do some generic 15" wheels and tires, maybe keep the cost down. Between the two cars, the '73 with a G3 and T56 will be the more "pro-touring" car and I want it to feel more modern so it makes some sense. The '74 would be more old school and not be expected to ride and handle up to the standard I want. Just an old school cruiser to take to car shows and stuff.
There is also the possibility that the '74 get's sold after the '73 is running. And it feels like it would be easier to sell if it was more stock.
DionR
Well-Known Member
Hmm...maybe 15" tires isn't a real option. Sticking with what I have and new 245/45R17 tires might be cheaper than 15" tires unless I want something like a 205/60R15 all the way around.
Honestly that doesn't sound like a tire issue to me. Typically with a tire issue you can still tell where it is, you'll feel it on one side or another.
To me it sounds exactly like you describe it, you broke something. And honestly if it feels like the car is moving around under you that doesn't even sound like steering. I mean, steering issues are sketchy because it feels like the car isn't going to go where you point it, but that's different from feeling like the car is doing something underneath you.
I'd be looking very hard at the LCA pivots, spring hangers and shackles, spring eye bolts, K frame welds etc.
DionR
Well-Known Member
Valid points, I will continue to investigate.
On a side note, not going back to 15” wheels on this car. Doesn’t make sense to spend more for a lesser tire.
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