one for BJR

[cannucky]

I've been following your 318 threads for a while now and am planning to build mine up a little this winter and would appreciate your wisdom , First off it's the #s matching block which is why I'm thinking off spending the dough to do this instead of just buying a 408 short block for next to nothing , my resto guy put my 318 back together to go that route { pull the short block out and swap a 408 shorty in and drive } with 360 heads , xe268 cam ,a stealth intake 4bbl , TTi's , 8 3/4 , super stock springs etc ... but I really would rather keep the matching block in the car so here are my thoughts , I am thinking a 4" crank { forged } h beams , something in the 10:1 range pistons , zero deck , bored 40 - 50 over . and maybe a girdle on the bottom , would this give me a 392 ? and what sort of power ? I want to run this on pump gas and drive it regularly on the street { I might drive across the country to mopar fest next month as it is } if it ever sees a track it won't be very often and I'm keeping the 323 rear end for the highway , I just want more than what I have I really hate sounding good and getting chumped at the light it doesn't happen very often now but when a faguar catches me looking at a mini skirt and steals my lane I need more ,plus the guy who did my car has been using what he learned on my car to build over stock 360s and I want to have a little surprise for those guy's eh! any thought , Ideas would be greatly appreciated thanks Chris:-D

 

[pettybludart]

Yes come to MoparFest!!It,s the Canadian Carlisle!We have a FABO section at the baseball diamond.Hope to see ya there!

 

[BJR Racing]

How much are you planning on spending on this build? This will determine how much power you'll end up with.

 

[cannucky]

after what I spent restoring this car I can't look at it that way I need to form a goal / plan and then find a way buck up and make it happen ,but short block 408s are around in the 4-5k range so with the stroker kit at about 2k with forged parts somewhere around that for my short block would seem like a ballpark figure , but thats one of the questions I am asking here , what should I be planning to spend ?
P.S. please keep in mind I'm a carpenter not a trust fund baby so when I say find a way it usually means finding side work and eating beannie-weinees and KD but we all gotta do what it takes to feed the need

 

[cannucky]

Yes come to MoparFest!!It,s the Canadian Carlisle!We have a FABO section at the baseball diamond.Hope to see ya there!

This idea all depends on work if I get laid off before august 7 I think I will make a run at coming I haven't been home to Ontario in 4 years { haven't had any time off in 4 years either} and if they let me across the US border so I can take the short way I'll probably come ,I also lived in Michigan for 12 years and haven't seen my golfing buddies since 2001 so that is also prompting me to go for it but like I said it's all about work I need every week I can get cause when it ends it's gonna a be a scramble to make side cash { while on pogey of course =P~ the canadian way eh! } we have close to 600 guys out of work in our union local out of almost 900 and the crap is finally affecting us here on the Island with no new projects of any size starting it could be a long year before I see another union paycheck

 

[BJR Racing]

Chris,
With what you've stated that you would like and have it streetable and run on pump gas. This is the best that I could come up with and keeping you out of trouble with detination, yet get you the power and Tq. that your looking for. This is going to make you have to do some work and checking but at a lesser cost is a plus. Your going to have to do some crank clearencing to the crank but it's not much. Anyway this is what I've come up with,

318 bored .030
stock replacement forged pistons
if the block is sq. decked then remove .050 off the top of the pistons and chamfer the outside edge the same amount
use a 750 cfm VS carb
use a 360 stroke crank, you can get them new for under $300.00
use a K6901 cam .441/.441 218/228 @ .050 from Summit
no valve reliefs needed
use 318 early style heads as pistons may be out of the block but should be .015 below deck
use 1.78/1.60 valves in heads
bowl cut and a good VJ
this makes 349 CI 9.39:1
peak HP 435 @ 5,500 rpms
peak Tq. 475 @ 4,000 rpm's
Tq. @ 3,500 is 453
Tq. @ 4,500 is 469
use MP .020 head gaskets

The 4" stroke crank that you were looking at would have too severe of rod angle and pistons would be expensive to get or have made. So I opted for this route and it's very close to what the 4" stroke would do. Sure the Tq. would be higher with the 4" stroke but I couldn't see it at the cost of pistons and shorter engine life. You can still do what you want, but this is what I would do if it were me and this is the way that I wanted to go. I would guess that this could be done for just under 2K or close to it.

 

[memike]

I copied and saved =P~ Thank you BJR:-D

 

[BJR Racing]

Any time.

 

[toolmanmike]

BJR While we're on the subject of small cube engines, do you have any recommendations for a not too radical HP273 for the street. 300 hp would be great. I would like to use the stock heads and intake. I'm sure there's some hp in the heads and with all the new cam technology nowdays................... (the little engine that could) LOL toolman

 

[BJR Racing]

Mike,
I would follow the same build specs. that are above. But I'll have to see what's available for pistons. As you know without the custom high price stuff they are getting harder to find. The only piston that I see listed is a 322NP and this one is cast. You could do the same thing with a 360 crank and you would have to have the top of the piston milled down .081 and this would put you close to 0 deck. But this will depend on the block deck height. You would end up with 297 CI or there abouts. Then follow the rest of the build above.

 

[cannucky]

thanks for the build plan , what difference would using the 360 heads I have ?
the reason he put these on in the first place was that we couldn't get the TTi's to seal to the one skinny port wall on each side of the heads another local guy had the same problem and went through every kind of 318-340 heads he could find and ended up with the 360 heads as they have good wide mating surfaces for the exhaust , I know port velocity go's way down in the 318 which is one of the other reasons I was looking at the larger displacement stroker kits , what you say about rod angles makes perfect sense and I was worried about top end rpms with the stroker as well which you seem to have a good handle on I just hate to throw these heads away what can I do to make them flow for your application? and is there a crank in between the '360' and the 4" ? once again thinking of more displacement

P.S. Boy I am glad I didn't order the parts already I was looking at the hug-2350+40 forged pistons at hughes or the 2352+40 if the flat ones were too high in compression and thats also were I got the 2k figure for the stroker kit { base 390 kit upgraded to forged crank and pistons }. I'm sure your package will rev higher as well what about the main girdles they sell are they a good investment ?

 

[BJR Racing]

Chris,
The 318 heads have more velocity in them than a 360 head, but the 360 head can be made to do the same. The problem comes from the small bore and the heads port volume. A good 318 bore doesn't need anymore than 140 cc's of intake port runner. About the only thing that I can see for you to use the 360 heads is to cut the deck on them at least .060 for compression and just do a bowl cut and a good VJ, leave the port as small as you can so you can keep the velocity up as high as you can. The inatke valve is going to hurt you some on the 318 bore, but if this is what you need to use then this is what you need to use. The HP and Tq #'s will be down some, but should still perform well, I was just giving you the best package for the engine that you wanted to use.

As for the crank shaft, yes you can get a crank in between but they are custom built and are expensive. Thats why I went the way that I did.

As for you main girdle, this is always a plus but if your only going to street drive this engine then I personnally don't think that you'll ever need it as the RPM's won't get high enough to make the gridle necessary.

Hope this helps.

 

[plumcrazy704406]

Yes come to MoparFest!!It,s the Canadian Carlisle!We have a FABO section at the baseball diamond.Hope to see ya there!

anybody got a 68/69 barracuda that they are bring for sale? sorry not trying to hijack the thread.

 

[nemesis]

Bjr, how on earth does it make that sort of power with a cam of
only 441 lift?
Its a hydraulic too right?

I thought it would need more cam.
Just curious to know thats all...

 

[BJR Racing]

High velocity ports and strong low lift flows, larger stroke but not too large. The right valve size for the bore and a good intake and exh.

 

[1967DartGT]

BJR While we're on the subject of small cube engines, do you have any recommendations for a not too radical HP273 for the street. 300 hp would be great. I would like to use the stock heads and intake. I'm sure there's some hp in the heads and with all the new cam technology nowdays................... (the little engine that could) LOL toolman

Whats nice on paper about a 273/300 stroker is that you end up right around 10:1 compression with 302 heads, taking advantage of their closed chamber design. I've considered this myself. Unfortunately there is a sad lack of pistons for the 273.

 

[nemesis]

High velocity ports and strong low lift flows, larger stroke but not too large. The right valve size for the bore and a good intake and exh.

Oh ok cool!

 

[cannucky]

Allrighty then it seems like we're getting this nailed down some , the previous owner seems to think the block was bored 30 over when he got the car but I won't know for sure until the time comes and we open her up but I guess I can start collecting parts and see what piston we end up needing after it go's to the machine shop I am going to spring for the girdle { an ounce of prevention eh!} the 360 heads are supposed to have had some bowl work done for quench already I don't know if this is what you mean by a bowl cut , they had a valve job done at the same as well as being shaved some { probably just decked } but all of this is will have to be confirmed somehow I still have the 318 heads but that opens up the header problem again and thats one expense I really don't want to revisit I would however like to try for a little more compression which is what the former Chrysler engineer I spoke with this evening suggested since we have gas here that is a little bit better than what you guys have to burn { a slightly different way of measuring octane I am told } our 92 should be able to easily support an honest 10:1 some say 10.5:1-11:1 but lets not push to hard there , how can I tell how much the heads have had taken off already?

 

[cannucky]

back again I just went on summit and looked for a forged crank what exactly is a 360 stroke crank? they are showing mostly 4" cranks but also have 3.58 and 3.31 am I looking for the 3.58 ? and what is the stock replacement piston flat, dished or domed ? KB seems to have some of each in most sizes again depending on the previous bore of the block and what we'll have after clean-up/ rounding and final honing I would guess , and I forgot to ask how much can I have these heads cut down you suggested a minimum of 60 but what would the max be ?
I also looked at the cam you suggested it seems to be pretty close to what I have, a little less valve lift which I assume is to keep the valves off the piston but the power band is much smaller than I was looking for 2000-4500 seems a little low on top I was thinking 6000-6500 on top why such a short range ?
Please try not to get too frustrated with me I am learning here and am trying to wrap my head around where we are going with this

 

[1967DartGT]

The 3.31 crank has the stock stroke for a 273/318/340. The 3.58 crank has the 360 stroke. If you are considering the 3.58 stroke crank, make sure it has the 318/340 mains.

 

[rumblefish360]

The 360 crank, in stock for can be cut down to fit the 318/340 mains or a new crank from MoPar can be purchased with the 318/340 mains allready.

 

[BJR Racing]

Allrighty then it seems like we're getting this nailed down some , the previous owner seems to think the block was bored 30 over when he got the car but I won't know for sure until the time comes and we open her up but I guess I can start collecting parts and see what piston we end up needing after it go's to the machine shop I am going to spring for the girdle { an ounce of prevention eh!} the 360 heads are supposed to have had some bowl work done for quench already I don't know if this is what you mean by a bowl cut , they had a valve job done at the same as well as being shaved some { probably just decked } but all of this is will have to be confirmed somehow I still have the 318 heads but that opens up the header problem again and thats one expense I really don't want to revisit I would however like to try for a little more compression which is what the former Chrysler engineer I spoke with this evening suggested since we have gas here that is a little bit better than what you guys have to burn { a slightly different way of measuring octane I am told } our 92 should be able to easily support an honest 10:1 some say 10.5:1-11:1 but lets not push to hard there , how can I tell how much the heads have had taken off already?

If the heads have had bowl work done already then this will take the place of the bowl cut. If the 360 heads seal on the exh. side witout problems then continue to use them. A stock 340/360 head from the factory will have .100-.110 depth in the quench area of the head when new and uncut. Just measure here and the difference will be what has been removed.

If more compression is what your looking for then don't cut as much off the top of the pistons and you have more compression, instead of cutting .0.075 to get you to 0 deck only take .050 off. Every .020 = .5 in compression. But this will have to be determined after the block has it's final dimensions.

 

[BJR Racing]

back again I just went on summit and looked for a forged crank what exactly is a 360 stroke crank? they are showing mostly 4" cranks but also have 3.58 and 3.31 am I looking for the 3.58 ? and what is the stock replacement piston flat, dished or domed ? KB seems to have some of each in most sizes again depending on the previous bore of the block and what we'll have after clean-up/ rounding and final honing I would guess , and I forgot to ask how much can I have these heads cut down you suggested a minimum of 60 but what would the max be ?
I also looked at the cam you suggested it seems to be pretty close to what I have, a little less valve lift which I assume is to keep the valves off the piston but the power band is much smaller than I was looking for 2000-4500 seems a little low on top I was thinking 6000-6500 on top why such a short range ?
Please try not to get too frustrated with me I am learning here and am trying to wrap my head around where we are going with this

A stock factory piston is a 1.725 compression distance piston, but when using this piston with a 3.58/360 stroke the piston will come out of the deck about .075 after the deck has been milled for squareness.

I suggested .060 when I thought that you were going to keep it a 0 deck engine. But if the engine is to have a positive deck then milling the heads will be the last thing that you need to look at for a final compression ratio. Make sure that you don't forget to add in the gasket thickness too.

Once again I thought that you were looking for a good high TQ street engine and not wanting to turn the engine this high. If I understood you correctly that you weren't going to race this engine but more stop light to stop light and car shows or cruising. Maybe I misread your post, if I did I'll make changes and go from there.

 

[cannucky]

you read me correctly on the not racing and I'll even go so far as to say not really all that much stop light action I was worried about the top end for highway driving I like to just get in the car and go sometimes but things are alot further apart up here and with the 14 inch wheels { oops I probably should have mentioned those before sorry I'm running small bolt 245/60/14s all around } I need to turn a little more rpm up top to make a decent highway speed and still have something left for passing thats all I meant when I asked but in rereading your build spec I see your able to get good power well beyond what summit is showing as the bandwidth for that cam

 

[cannucky]

On another vein here what sort of turn around time are you seeing if some one brought an engine to you to have this done by you, out built back in the car ?