Original Headlights

Electrical and Ignition

  1. Murray

    Murray FABO Gold Member FABO Gold Member

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    OK, this may seem weird. I am restoring a 1968 cuda. Here is the weird stuff, I would like to find out who produced the original headlights used at the factory. Does anyone out there know, or know where to go to find out? Could it be Tung-Sol? Trying to be "correct". Thanks for any help, Murray.
     
  2. 65dartcharger

    65dartcharger Dart Charger 273 Historian FABO Gold Member

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    Hi! I know that Westinghouse and General Electric was supplier for Chrysler!
     
  3. Murray

    Murray FABO Gold Member FABO Gold Member

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    Thanks very much, a small point to some but important to me.
     
  4. HemiMark

    HemiMark Well-Known Member

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    slant 6 dan a member here is the lighting guru...PM him!
     
  5. spence340

    spence340 Well-Known Member

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    Just curious if you found out anything on the original headlights?
     
  6. chryslerfat

    chryslerfat Well-Known Member

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    This is a really good question. I know from my chebbie past those had a T3 with a triangle around it.
     
  7. Tony Fields

    Tony Fields That's How I Roll Legendary Member

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    One of my original headlights was a T3 on my '67
     
  8. slantsixdan

    slantsixdan =..=

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    Nope. That was not an original headlamp, it was a replacement. The "T3" lamps were made by Guide, a division of General Motors. They were not installed as original equipment on any non-GM vehicles.

    Chrysler bought their headlamps for the North American market from two companies in the 1960s: Tung-Sol and General Electric.

    Murray, if you're trying for down-to-the-last-inkstamp originality, I may have a new set of original-equipment headlamps on the shelf; send me a PM.
     
  9. Tony Fields

    Tony Fields That's How I Roll Legendary Member

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    Opps...I should have said my 'Cuda had a T3 in it when I got it.

    Didn't know they were not orig. to the car. Glad I found out...I was going
    to try and find another one. Thanks slant
     
  10. mopardude318

    mopardude318 Well-Known Member

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    Isn't this guy full of great info???!! I love it!
    A wallking mopar/electrical encyclopedia!
     
  11. 65dartcharger

    65dartcharger Dart Charger 273 Historian FABO Gold Member

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    Was there different suppliers in 1965 compare to 1967? I know that the DartCharger ht I have had one of each and according to the owner no one had ever touch that car. I checked for evidence but cound't see that someone ever changed one of the headlamps. I had one Westinghouse and one General Electric!!!!
     
  12. 65dartcharger

    65dartcharger Dart Charger 273 Historian FABO Gold Member

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    I have two sets too but I need to look into the date codes. I need a late 1964 or very early 1965 set. My car was produced Jan 27, 1965. What is your date codes slantsixdan?

    And by the way, thanks for the turn signal switch for the steering colum.I just gonna reproduce the paper tag with the part#!
     
  13. 65dartcharger

    65dartcharger Dart Charger 273 Historian FABO Gold Member

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    Slantsixdan! What is your datecodes on yours? Mine is

    General Electric R19 and L23
    Westinghouse J95 and M499 One with Chrysler part code "Made in Canada"

    Any idea what they stand for? I have heard that it should be week and the last digit in the year but I'm not sure. Any help is appriciated.Thanks
     
  14. slantsixdan

    slantsixdan =..=

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    65dartcharger, re your Westinghouse lamps: I didn't have Chrysler Canada in mind when I said "GE and Tung-Sol". I don't know for sure that Chrysler Canada bought from Westinghouse, but they certainly could have. I know they bought from GE of Canada. And things are complicated by a series of mergers and name games involving the Tung-Sol, Wagner, Westinghouse, and Philips makers and brands of American-made sealed-beam headlamps. What kind of a Chrysler part code do you see on the one headlamp?

    I have a fair number of NOS sealed beams. The one pair I have readily to hand is a post-1959, pre-1966 set of new-in-box Westinghouse 6012s with the big round "W" logo in the middle of the lens. The ink stamp on the back is Westinghouse Safe-T-Beam 6012 and three dots and that's it. Nothing that could possibly be a date code. I have no comprehensive knowledge on the matter of sealed-beam date codes, but from what I have seen it is highly inconsistent in format and presence/absence. Sometimes it's nice and clear (such as "7-66"), sometimes there's something that could be a production lot code but doesn't look reliably decodable into a date (such as "A15"), sometimes there's something that could be a week-and-year 3-digit code (such as "132" meaning the 13th week of 1972) and sometimes there's nothing at all.

    My advice: if you are concerned enough about originality to be seeking original-type headlamps, unless you are prepared to spend ridiculous sums of money with the sorts of vendors who think several hundred dollars is appropriate money for a NOS sealed beam bearing what might be a date code appropriate to your car...worry more about having period-correct headlamps with the right lens patterns and markings. That would mean no current-production sealed beams with "HALOGEN" in the middle and "2D1" at the top and thin-line lens prisms—the correct lens-top type designator is "2" for a 7" lamp or a high/low beam 5¾" lamp, "1" for a high-beam 5¾" lamp unless yours is a '74 or newer car in which "2D1" wouldn't be incorrect on a 7" lamp, "2C1" on a high/low beam 5¾" lamp, and "1C1" on a high-beam 5¾" lamp. (And if you gotta-just-gotta-just-gotta have an inkstamped date code on the back of your sealed beams where nobody will ever see it…okeh, go have a rubber stamp made with the date code of your choice and stamp away!)

    As for whether either or both of the headlamps on your forty-six-year-old car: C'mon. There's just plain no way to state "nobody ever changed a headlamp on this car" unless you had custody and control of the car from day 1 and cared enough to pay specific attention to routine replacements of maintenance items like light bulbs. Remember, when these cars were 0 to 15 years old, they were just plain cars, not collector items. From 15 to 25 years old they were just plain old cars. After that they began to be "cool old cars" and then to acquire some collectable status. The guy who claims to be able to say with surety that the headlamps are original is full of it.

    Moreover, since you are in Sweden, you shouldn't be looking at sealed-beam headlamps at all. American cars sent to Sweden got equipped with European-code headlamps, most of which (except for a few English-made items) were of replaceable-bulb design, not sealed beam. In most cases this requirement was applied not only to new cars first sold in Sweden by Chrysler (or whatever other automaker) but also to privately-imported new or used vehicles. Before Dagen H, the required headlamps would have been left-traffic items—right-traffic lamps after Dagen H. So you may want to shift your search away from the sealed beams that would be correct for your car in America, and instead seek a set of period-correct European-code lamps; those, too, look different than current-production items. I might have a set of those on the shelf as well; have to look.
     
  15. grimreaper

    grimreaper Cross Member

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    Got to agree with Dan on the fact that whoever says the headlights for sure have not been changed may be full of it. Back in 1968 my Dad bought a brand new '68 Ford Galaxie. (He had also been dealing on a Doge but to my disappointment selected the crappy Ford) When we went to pick it up I noticed that the high beam lenses were obviously different so I pointed it out to my Dad. We took a look and saw that they were different brands (don't remember which brands) so my Dad asked about the difference. Turned out that in the pre-delivery inspection one lamp blew so they replaced it with whatever the parts department happened to have on hand. I suggested that they put matching bulbs in it but Dad didn't care so long as they worked. A case of a bulb switch on a brand new car before it was picked up by the original owner.
     
  16. slantsixdan

    slantsixdan =..=

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    Here are photos of the set of lamps I mention above:

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
     
  17. 1BadDodge71

    1BadDodge71 FABO Rice Hater

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    Geez,now I feel like crap for buying mine at Wal Mart.lol
     
  18. bluedart

    bluedart It's not B3! It's UU1!

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    Not sure if this helps any, but 3 of the 4 lights in my Fury are Westinghouse. Factory stuff..

    -Nick
     
  19. rigrunner

    rigrunner rigrunner

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    :thumblef: LOL
     
  20. 65dartcharger

    65dartcharger Dart Charger 273 Historian FABO Gold Member

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    Thanks for all the information slantsixdan!

    The decal on the lamp is "Made in Canada". Factory sticker for lamps for assembly line. I can shoot a picture of the decal when I get back home.

    Re the datecodes what I know of is that there should be three digits at the top of the lamp. Like you said 132 is week 13 of 1972. I'm looking for late 64 and very early 1965 lamps. But what about the other codes I sent you. Is that later production or what? I'm not sure what they stands for when you have a R19 or J95 on top!

    What is the codes on the ones in the pictures?

    I know that there should be a "2" on the lamp. I know it may sounds weird but I just want to come down to a point where I know, this is the way it was from the factory! The reason is simply that I'm writing an reference manual for 1964 to 1966 Darts and I want it tobe correct. That's why I need help from experts like yourself.

    Re "never changed" I agree with you. I looked the other night and the datecodes on one of the lamps was 305 which wouild be week 30 of 1965! So untouched, hmmmmmmmmm! Not too sure!!! However the other one was 494 which would be correct for my car.

    I'm building the car back to the condition it had when it left the plant in LA in January of 1965. So I would never build it back to the European style. I know that we changed the headlights in 1967 when we vent from driving on the left side to the right side of the road. I have changed it on the other 65s I have but this one will be restored back to US stock specs.

    Any info in this matter slantsixdan is more then welcome.
     
  21. chryslerfat

    chryslerfat Well-Known Member

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    Wow Dan is the man when it comes to auto Einstein.
     
  22. 65dartcharger

    65dartcharger Dart Charger 273 Historian FABO Gold Member

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    Yepp, he sure is!
     
  23. OneOfMany

    OneOfMany Well-Known Member

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    A plethora of interesting information indeed.

    Grant
     
  24. slantsixdan

    slantsixdan =..=

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    Great, would love to see it.

    Please re-read my comments about inkstamps and codes on sealed beams; I addressed all of this. It is not the case that there "should be three digits" at the top of the lamp. Sometimes there are, and sometimes there aren't, and sometimes there's something else.

    Already answered this, too.

    Be very, very, very careful writing a reference book. It's a much bigger job than it seems. It is extremely easy to include guesses and assumptions and received wisdom and observations from looking at one or two or three cars as "facts", and it is extremely difficult to verify a great many details such as the brand of headlamp originally installed.

    "How it was from the factory" depends on which factory built it, on what date, for what market (cars built for Canada got different equipment than cars built for the US, which got different equipment than cars built for export to Sweden, which got different equipment than cars built for export to France, etc.). How it was from the factory also depends on random chance. When 273-2bbls were being assembled, whichever carburetor happened to be in stock and next in line got used—a Carter BBD or a Stromburg WW3. Same with 225s; they'd get a Holley 1920 or a Carter BBS. Ignition coils, too, came from a few different suppliers. Same with headlamps. And those guys who spend ridiculous sums of money to get a custom-made crayon with exactly the shade of orange (or whatever) they think is "correct" for the slash mark on their rear axle? They're delusional. There was no "correct" color for that crayon. It was whatever the rear axle inspector had in his hand. They weren't about to stop the line because he used up a crayon and another one of exactly the same shade wasn't available.

    Was it built for export, or for the US market?
     
  25. slantsixdan

    slantsixdan =..=

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    1. What year is your Fury?
    2. How do you know they're original?
     
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