Outrageous overbill by Kanter Automotive

[MattP]

This year marks our 52nd year in business providing quality service, parts and a lifetime limited warranty to the collector car industry.

Regarding, Mr.Ron Weinger (DuelingCudas) of Berkely Heights, NJ issue. We do take seriously all situations where a customer feels they may have been mistreated. We do understand that each and everyone is allowed to post their opinions on a product or service on the internet freely for others to view (or on multiple forums/blog as was done in his case).But it is incumbent on all parties to post all of the relevant facts.

8/7/12. Mr. Weinger called into our sales staff for an estimate ($225) on the rebuild of his power steering pump.

8/24/12. Mr. Weinger came in and worked with Mr. Kanter, wrote up the work order for the rebuild, APPROVED and paid in advanced as this is company policy.

9/12/12. After further examination of the unit Customer Service called Mr. Weinger to inform him of additional repairs that were needed. Mr. Weinger was given the opportunity of not proceeding and receiving a full refund and declined; he APPROVED the additional charge of $100.

9/24/12.Customer Service received a call from Mr. Weinger. Very upset because he felt he was overcharged because he received our invoice from the rebuilder with his unit by mistake.

9/24/12.Customer Service explained to Mr. Weinger of the mistake of receiving our bill from the rebuilder with his unit. The markup was derived was from industry standards. At that point he was very upset and threatened a lawsuit, phone call to the better business bureau, and multiple posts on the internet. If we would not lower the price and give him a refund.

As numerous posters said, our markups are within the industry norms. We dealt with Mr. Weinger honestly and directly and he had the choice to proceed or cancel several times. Of the 100,000 customers we deal with each year there are one or two like Mr. Weinger.

Thank You
Kanter Auto Products Customer Service
[Phone Number and eMail deleted by Staff]

Did you do any additional work that wasn't included in the rebuilder's invoice?

If so, did any of that work inflate the invoice you sent the customer?

If not, are you saying that 132% is a standard industry markup for sending work out?

I understand that your customer approved the charges, and is balking now that he found out how much you are up charging him. He really doesn't have a leg to stand on as far as getting money back. I'm more curious to see if every time a customer walks through the door you automatically tack on 132% for any work you farm out.

 

[Bad Sport]

OP said this:

The invoice, including shipping, was for $146.44.

When he agreed to this:

8/7/12. Mr. Weinger called into our sales staff for an estimate ($225) on the rebuild of his power steering pump.

8/24/12. Mr. Weinger came in and worked with Mr. Kanter, wrote up the work order for the rebuild, APPROVED and paid in advanced as this is company policy.

And then agreed to this:

9/12/12. After further examination of the unit Customer Service called Mr. Weinger to inform him of additional repairs that were needed. Mr. Weinger was given the opportunity of not proceeding and receiving a full refund and declined; he APPROVED the additional charge of $100.

And then said this:

The rebuilder sent returned the rebuild pump directly to me, with the invoice. The invoice, including shipping, was for $146.44. Kanter billed me for $340.75. I spoke directly to Fred Kanter who told me a $194.32 markup was a usual business practice. I expected some markup for their labor and overhead , but not 132%.

225 plus 100 plus shipping, 15.75 (probably USPS flat rate box) = 340.75


I don't see any markup personally.

 

[RPM]

Badsport..... you just laid out what I was thinking in my head. .....

-RPM

 

[Bad Sport]

I understand that your customer approved the charges, and is balking now that he found out how much you are up charging him. He really doesn't have a leg to stand on as far as getting money back. I'm more curious to see if every time a customer walks through the door you automatically tack on 132% for any work you farm out.

Doesn't look like any to me. See above. If there was (and there should be) it was in the estimate. He knew up front.

 

[d5667]

Good Grief; you guy's don't think anything about running up to McDonalds to buy a Big Mac meal.Do you really think they are not charging you four times what it really costs?Like I said about Kanter-They are straight up with their pricing.Turn loose of your mommy's dresstail-man up and pay the guy what you agreed to.

 

[MattP]

Doesn't look like any to me. See above. If there was (and there should be) it was in the estimate. He knew up front.

I'm not saying Kanter added additional cost on top of what was originally quoted.

I read it as Kanter quoted the job at $225 and during the course of repair they found additional damage that added $100. So now we are at $325. Figure shipping and you get the $340.75 OP was charged.



Everyone was happy until OP found out what Kanter actually paid someone else to perform the work and realized they had only been billed $146.44.


There’s no getting around that Kanter is only billing what he agreed to pay.

But, as long as people are willing to pay then more power to Kanter. They apparently offer a service that's worth that kind of markup to enough customers to stay in business. This is a prime example of knowledge is power. If the OP knew who to send it to he could have eliminated the middle man and saved a decent chunk of change.

 

[Sir Thomas]

As a shop owner all I can say is sure YOU can do it your self cheaper, and when it fails or goes wrong the only person you can ***** at is in your mirror. But any business has its fixed cost that have to be covered as well as having the ability to put money in the bank so 6mo's from now when you need something they are still there. The guys that do stuff dirt cheap are there today and gone tommorow along with your warranty. It sounds like you recieved a good working pump with a warranty that you were glad to pay for BEFORE you realized they need to make money off of you. Out of 132% mark up they are lucky to put 10 -15 % in the bank. Sorry

 

[ESP47]

But, as long as people are willing to pay then more power to Kanter. They apparently offer a service that's worth that kind of markup to enough customers to stay in business. This is a prime example of knowledge is power. If the OP knew who to send it to he could have eliminated the middle man and saved a decent chunk of change.

Exactly. If you want the easy road, you bring your part to Kanter and they do all the leg work for you and charge you for it.

If you want to save money, you do the research, contact the company that rebuilds the boxes, ship it on your own and pay them for the rebuild and shipping while cutting out the middle man.

This is why I always go online and ask questions no matter how stupid they may seem. There are always people online who have been there and done that and can steer (no pun) you in the right direction.

OP if you ok'd the initial estimate and extra $100 on top of that, then why are you pissed? Just because you saw how much it really cost to fix vs. how much you paid? Hell, they even offered you a refund. If you don't want to do your own work on these things then you must know that you gotta pay to play.

 

[Dartman1969]

I'm not saying Kanter added additional cost on top of what was originally quoted.

I read it as Kanter quoted the job at $225 and during the course of repair they found additional damage that added $100. So now we are at $325. Figure shipping and you get the $340.75 OP was charged.



Everyone was happy until OP found out what Kanter actually paid someone else to perform the work and realized they had only been billed $146.44.


There’s no getting around that Kanter is only billing what he agreed to pay.

But, as long as people are willing to pay then more power to Kanter. They apparently offer a service that's worth that kind of markup to enough customers to stay in business. This is a prime example of knowledge is power. If the OP knew who to send it to he could have eliminated the middle man and saved a decent chunk of change.

MattP
If the OP knew who to send the pump to it is unlikely he would have saved much money. The company that rebuilt the pump offers a substantial discount to volume customers. Kanter likely sends thousands of parts to the rebuilder and thus gets a huge discount. The OP is going to send 1 so he is going to pay retail not wholesale. For example: OP ships pump to rebuilder for $20, OP pays rebuilder retail price on pump rebuild probably $200, OP gets phone call and is told needs another $100 worth of work, OP pays return shipping of $20. Tell me what he saves?
~Michael

 

[AdamR]

MattP
If the OP knew who to send the pump to it is unlikely he would have saved much money. The company that rebuilt the pump offers a substantial discount to volume customers. Kanter likely sends thousands of parts to the rebuilder and thus gets a huge discount. The OP is going to send 1 so he is going to pay retail not wholesale. For example: OP ships pump to rebuilder for $20, OP pays rebuilder retail price on pump rebuild probably $200, OP gets phone call and is told needs another $100 worth of work, OP pays return shipping of $20. Tell me what he saves?
~Michael

Exactly. Thats how business works. I have a few subs that I work with. The subs charge us less because we are getting them the work and its our warranty.

Most restoration shops cant handle all aspects of the restoration, They will farm out engine builds, transmissions, interior work etc. I know of a shop local to me that doesnt nothing other then finally assembly, everything is subbed. The difference is you usually dont get there copy of the bill. If he never saw the other bill he never would have questioned it. You paying for convenience.

Its the same with having a house built. The "contractor" doesnt do much of anything other then hire all the people that know what they are doing.

My guess is Kanter said $225 expecting it to cost them $125. When it needed extra work they it was going to cost them $225 so they asked the o/p if he wanted to pay the difference otherwise they wouldnt be making any profit. There a business they need to make a profit.

 

[Wrencher]

Yea, I have to side with Kanter on this one, The OP authorized two seperate charges to have the pump rebuilt. What Kanter does with it once they have it is not relevant. The price was agreed upon.

Even if it costs them $50 to have it done, that doesnt change anything but the profit margin. The OP was happy with the price until he realized all he did was pay a middle man who merely ships parts rather than repair.

The only thing i can fault Kanter for is carelessly misplacing the builders invoice. No way your customer should be holding your invoice right now.

 

[ESP47]

MattP
If the OP knew who to send the pump to it is unlikely he would have saved much money. The company that rebuilt the pump offers a substantial discount to volume customers. Kanter likely sends thousands of parts to the rebuilder and thus gets a huge discount. The OP is going to send 1 so he is going to pay retail not wholesale. For example: OP ships pump to rebuilder for $20, OP pays rebuilder retail price on pump rebuild probably $200, OP gets phone call and is told needs another $100 worth of work, OP pays return shipping of $20. Tell me what he saves?
~Michael

I'm just picking a random vehicle, but Rockauto has a Cardone return and service rebuild for a 71 Valiant power steering gear. Total price without shipping $144. Tack on $20 for shipping each way and it's an estimated price of $184 total. You're still going through a middle man for half the price.

 

[TheMoparMan]

Wow, Kanter is absolutely Ridiculous!!!
For everyone else, your better looking up a local rebuilder locally or going on eBay. I had a rebuilder in HB rebuild my power steering pump for 60 bucks with lifetime warranty on their work. 2 years later they rebuilt my master cylinder and power brake canister for $150 after not being able to locate a suitable replacement for the price I wanted. I tend to skip the middle man.
Even though you did get ripped..... You now have the info of the rebuilder from that invoice...
From now on contact them directly for your rebuilding needs......
Heck you could post their info on here for others in that area to use them as well.

 

[Dartman1969]

I'm just picking a random vehicle, but Rockauto has a Cardone return and service rebuild for a 71 Valiant power steering gear. Total price without shipping $144. Tack on $20 for shipping each way and it's an estimated price of $184 total. You're still going through a middle man for half the price.

Rockauto also lists a Cardone remanufactured power steering pump for a 65 barracuda with a 273 for $52.79 including core. The only reason the OP is upset is because he now knows what Kanter paid. If he had never seen the wholesale invoice he would be very pleased with his product. The OP authorized and agreed to the charges feeling at the time of the agreement they were fair. They are no less fair now.
~Michael

 

[Bulldozer]

whatever the cost may be......and i too find it steep, he 100% agreed to everything according to Kanters post if it is 100% accurate. it pays to shop around. it appears he was even given the opportunity to bail out of the whole thing, which he chose not to do. "shop and compare" does have a meaning..

 

[OwdKasd]

This debate could go on forever!!! NJ business expenses are way higher than say North carolina. Kanter isn't getting rich off these Power steering rebuilds. As long as they give the estimate up front then it's all legit. BTW the OP doesn't seem to have much to say anymore.

 

[ESP47]

Rockauto also lists a Cardone remanufactured power steering pump for a 65 barracuda with a 273 for $52.79 including core. The only reason the OP is upset is because he now knows what Kanter paid. If he had never seen the wholesale invoice he would be very pleased with his product. The OP authorized and agreed to the charges feeling at the time of the agreement they were fair. They are no less fair now.
~Michael

I agree with everything you said there. I just wasn't in agreement with your previous statement that he wouldn't be able to save much money if he went straight to the steering gear rebuilding company.

 

[SGBARRACUDA]

Try and explain or justify all you want. That amount of mark up IMO and I speak only for myself, is plain outragous. Every business man is in business to make money, I do it also. Just what did the customer recieve for the extra $100.00 charge if the entire job was $146.44? I have owned an auto parts store C&R discount auto parts and a franchise of Don Garlits speed shop. And I can state that I wasn't able to make that sort of profit.
Well one thing possitive did come from this experience. I know where and where not to spend my money.

 

[68383GTS]

I agree with SGBARRACUDA on this one...

 

[4404spd]

i agree with sgbarracuda on this one...

x2

 

[Oklacarcollecto]

I agree with SGBARRACUDA on this one...

Xs3. The $100 was a rip off even though it was approved. It is the OPs problem that he failed to shop around before paying out such a high price.

 

[SGBARRACUDA]

Having done business with them before, and not knowing the industry, I trusted them to deal with a relaible

This is what I base my opinion on. The fact that he had done business with Kanter in the past and that he trusted them to be FAIR. I work very hard to earn my customers respect. Without this level of trust there would be no business, instead of having more work than I can do. Customers will wait until we can work on there cars.

 

[72ScampTramp]

Looks like there a member here

 

[HawaiiDuster]

Does anyone know what the "retail" price of the rebuild from that rebuilder actually is? The retail price might be what he was charged, then he saw the wholesale price that Kanter gets and expected that price. Even if he went directly to that rebuilder, his cost might be exactly what he paid thru Kanter. And who's to say what is an outrageous mark up if you don't even know what a business' overhead is. If you knew what the mark up on everything you bought was, you'd think that a 150% mark up was a deal. If you know before hand what something is going to cost and you decide to pay the price, don't go complaining that you got ripped off after the fact. If there is a problem with quality or workmanship and the company you got it from won't fix the problem, then by all means complain all you want.

 

[70RR]

I have been in the Wholesale Building Materials Business for almost 26 years...When I drop ship an order<Take the order and do nothing but get that Purchase order and do billing> I get from 10% to 40% as a mark up..I do nothing but send Mfg. my order..I never ever touch it..That is a standard mark up...No wonder why it costs so damn much to fix a car....Hows does Kanter make more than the rebuilder by doing only the order placing ???...Buyer should of done more homework..I will agree on that but, Kanters mark up was way too high....Saying a Breakfast costing $1 sells for $5 that busniess did it all the work and has large overhead..IT is stupid to compare the two..Apples to Oranges...Kanter was only the waiter taking the order then had some one else order the eggs and toast and had someone else cook it give to customer, clean the table and dishes and than charged full price ..If that was the case it would be a $25 Breakfast...Damn nice work if you can get it....Other than ship it out what was Kanters overhead.?..A hours work ..Yes they need to make a profit but not at RIP OFF Rates...:banghead: .Fair is Fair and at those profit margins it is not..Rick 70RR


at po

Try and explain or justify all you want. That amount of mark up IMO and I speak only for myself, is plain outragous. Every business man is in business to make money, I do it also. Just what did the customer recieve for the extra $100.00 charge if the entire job was $146.44? I have owned an auto parts store C&R discount auto parts and a franchise of Don Garlits speed shop. And I can state that I wasn't able to make that sort of profit.
Well one thing possitive did come from this experience. I know where and where not to spend my money.