PCV- Good or bad idea for a performance engine?

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Moparmal

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Id like answers to these questions:

1./ Does the PCV system foul up the mixtures at high revs in a performance engine? (say 350 HP+) -

1b. - If not, why not?

2./ With a conversion to a puke tank - should both sides rocker covers be ventilated or just one?

3/ If I convert to a puke tank with fitted breather cap - should I still run the oil breathers on both rocker covers as well?

3b. - If not, why not?

Hope some of the experienced engine builders / racers on here can help.....
 
Mal,

1. Not that I'm aware of, but it's ment for street use and not racing use. As it won't scavenge well enough to keep the bottom end free of pressure.

2. Both sides should be vented to the puke tank, just like the dual breather setup for the hedders.

3. NO all breathers have to be removed as the puke tank system needs to be a closed system and sealed tight like a vacuum pump setup to operate as it should. The catch can is vented but the line going to it has a 1 way valve so there won't be any reversion or vacuum loss.
 
Mal,

1. Not that I'm aware of, but it's ment for street use and not racing use. As it won't scavenge well enough to keep the bottom end free of pressure.
BJR is right, I'll just add this: "it won't scavenge well enough to keep the bottom end free of pressure." Because there is little to no vacuum in the intake manifold at wide open throttle. Not a big problem on the street, but if you're running a race only engine, like BJR says, there is no scavenging when the engine needs it most.

There are header based systems that will pull at WOT.
 
Mal,
OK is this street or strip, or both? This has alot to do with how and where you plumb the evac system. We need more info?
 
If this is a race only, you can use the valve cover breather to header collector evac setup, they work good and is a cheap alternative to a vaccum pump/puke tank set up.
 
sorry for the delayed reply - its down to time zones and no access at work,,,,,

The car is a weekender - sees mainly cruising and strip about 8 times a year.

I currently have some blow by, and Im worried this is altering my mixture when I go to the strip....

I've see a diagram of the "header dump" system...thats really too much mucking around for me...

I can pick up a ventilated puke tank cheap of Racing Junk, and wondered if the mod was worthwhile for my situation.....

My problem is Im getting a lot of differing opinions - so even if there's a 10% chance of improving my mixture - Ill do it....

Re the "one way valve"...would a PCV valve do the trick on each line?
 
If you even think about driving on the street, leave the PCV system intact. Your carb is already tuned to have it in place, besides you need to adjust the mixture with the jets not the PCV system.

The Moroso type collector scavenger systems only work at high RPM full throttle.

If you have more blow-by at idle than the PCV system can accomodate your rings are letting compression escape. (With the PCV connected if you cover the breather with your hand, the crankcase should build vacuum in 2-3 seconds).

If you just vent into a puke tank, you will likely discover 100 new oil leaks.
 
If you even think about driving on the street, leave the PCV system intact. Your carb is already tuned to have it in place, besides you need to adjust the mixture with the jets not the PCV system.

The Moroso type collector scavenger systems only work at high RPM full throttle.

If you have more blow-by at idle than the PCV system can accomodate your rings are letting compression escape. (With the PCV connected if you cover the breather with your hand, the crankcase should build vacuum in 2-3 seconds).

If you just vent into a puke tank, you will likely discover 100 new oil leaks.

I agree 100%. If run a racing evac system on the street, you're going to have some serious problems.
 
OK

My problem

Is with some blow by at high revs. My ring fit is not great.

At idle/cruise theres no issue.

Rationale

- I considered that the oil fumes at high revs would exceed the "ideal" - thus effecting tuning "mixture" - and possibly lead to detonation and plugs being fouled.

Therefore I figured I should divert some of this away from the intake at WOT.

Solution

What if I insert a catch can between the PCV valve and the intake?

Would a "puke" cannister with some filter mesh cause enough "condensation" to remove some of the oil vapour, while the engine can still draw what it wants?
 
The PCV system is pretty simple and so long as it is in good working order, very effective. One valve cover has a breather (right bank typically) which allows filtered air into the crankcase. The opposite valve cover has a PCV valve which sucks oil, moisture and exhaust vapors from the crankcase and meter them into the intake manifold so they get burned through the combustion process. The PCV valve acts like a "vacuum leak regulator" or check valve allowing a small amount of crankcase vapor to be sucked in at idle and a large amount at cruise. If you didn't have a PCV valve, you would have a large amount of air entering the intake, causing poor idle quality.

This system has some real advantages:

1. Toxic (and smelly) crankcase vapors are burned by the engine and not vented into the atmosphere directly upwind of the driver. The crankcase is effectively "sealed" keeping dirt and crud out making the engine last longer. The baffle under the PCV valve acts as an air/oil separator (on factory valve covers anyway), which keeps you oil in the engine where it belongs.

2. Moisture, a natural byproduct of combustion is pulled from the crankcase as the engine runs. If the moisture remains in the crankcase, the oil will become acidic and corrosive to soft metals like bearings. This is another way a PCV valve will make your engine last longer.

3. The crankcase runs at a slight negative pressure with a PCV system. Small leaks will try to let air in and not allow oil out. If the crankcase develops positive pressure, the engine will try to force oil out at every possible location.

4. The system has NO drawbacks performance wise and uses no horsepower to operate. If the system were removed you might have to go to a smaller main jet in your carb to get acceptable idle performance which could actually hurt power output. A normal PCV system, being vacuum operated, allows less vapor into the engine at wide open throttle, so it has no effect when you are running down the track.

Now, if you were to remove this system for some reason, you would have to overcome some obstacles. As the engine runs at high RPM the crankshaft whips up a cloud of oil vapor which has to go somewhere. So you add "puke tanks" to try to keep this cloud from oiling down your engine compartment and creating a stinky fire hazard. Even if you catch all the oil you'll still be venting toxic fumes directly upwind of your face. Another option is to use one of the "exhaust scavenge" systems where you plumb the crankcase directly into the header collectors with a couple of aspirators and check valves. In this system the high velocity exhaust creates suction through the aspirators (a venturi effect) drawing vapors from the crankcase and blowing them out the exhaust. The higher the RPM, the more suction. This type of system is effective only at high RPM in an exhaust system with no back pressure (like open headers). OK for NASCAR or a dragster, but not effective on the street.

If you have excessive "blow-by" at idle which the PCV system cannot handle, you have a mechanical issue that no amount of external plumbing will correct. Think about it, if you are dumping that much compression at idle where cylinder pressure is low, imagine how much you are losing at full power. Every bit of combustion energy that leaks past the rings is energy that is not being used to move the car forward (although you are still paying $4.29 a gallon to make this energy).

PCV systems have been around for a LONG time (1941 Willys Jeep is possibly the first) and have not changed much even on new engines. Because they work better than anything else and make engines last longer.
 
when i bought my dodge dart it only had two push-in oil breathers. The first thing i did was install the old chrome direct connection valve covers with one pcv an one push-in oil breather. The previous owner was riving the car on the street and track. I drive the car on the street, i havent got a chance to race it yet but i will soon.

The 440 engine didn't leak oil before & it doesnt now
What did i do performance wise? Did i lose horsepower or did i gain horsepower?

this is what i removed:
Picture322.jpg


This is the engine now:
IMG_0021-1.jpg

IMG_0022-1.jpg
 
C130 - Thank you for a very well constructed and easily understood post -
(If the mods have a tech archive, your post should go in it!)

Now - my issue......

I have no blow by at idle, but due to poor ring fit I have some by-pass at high revs.

I dont like th idea of this blow-by going straight back into the fuel sytem - it MUST be polluting the A/F mixture to some extent...

BUT - I see all the sense in keeping the PCV system in place for "street duty"........

Any suggestions (the engine tear down is not due till next year and I have races to win!!)
 
The PCV valve will "blow closed" in this situation, so your engine will not become overwhelmed by oil vapors at wide open throttle. Besides, think of the relative size of the little 3/8" hose compared to those 4 wide open barrels of your carb. Thats where the mixture comes from. Besides, blow-by IS air fuel mixture that didn't get burned the first time.

You can always splice a 3/8" universal metal cased fuel filter into the PCV line to catch liquid oil. Dump it out every now and then to figure out how much oil is being expelled.

If you ring fit is as poor as you indicate, your engine is possibly not healthy enough to be consistent in American style bracket racing (I don't know what you run down under) so the slight effect the PCV system may have is the least of your trouble. You will in fact have greater oil control issues due to the rings. What is your oil consumption rate?

Racing a tired engine like that runs the risk of NEEDING that rebuild well before next year. But do go have fun with it.
 
Well Hello!!!:cheers:

Got a chance to start checking the motor today - , and found that my PCV valve is pretty much toast - glued up and "gunked"

Would I be right in thinking this may be causing my increased oil burning??
(Im guessing it is - crankcase pressure forcing vapour past the rings into the chambers?)

Also, my front seal has been seeping a little over the last few weeks......Reckon I found the culprit?
 
When I bought my car it was race-only. Check out the breather setup that was on it:

383old-small.jpg


This was taken around 25 years ago, not long after I bought it. Four breathers on really tall stacks to keep them from "blowing off" as
I was told. It still had the dual point back then too.

A quarter century later and this is what it looks like now with all internals the same and electronic ignition:

cuda5s.jpg
 
Well Hello!!!:cheers:

Got a chance to start checking the motor today - , and found that my PCV valve is pretty much toast - glued up and "gunked"

Would I be right in thinking this may be causing my increased oil burning??
(Im guessing it is - crankcase pressure forcing vapour past the rings into the chambers?)

Also, my front seal has been seeping a little over the last few weeks......Reckon I found the culprit?



That just may be the problem. The ball in the PVC valve should rattle around when you shake it. If not you should replace it.

The seal leaking sound like where your oil is going. "On the ground".
 
I just run k&n breathers on my SB and use points to trigger the MSD ignition system, solid core plug wires, 360 heads on a 318...many no no's but it runs great.
 
Excellent post chief. Thanks for bringing PCV operation down to the redneck level( No offense anyone I'm in this catagory myself).

Oldschoolcuda
 
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