Possible blown head gasket or worse

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Andre68

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How's it goin! Helping out a friend of mine with his car, it's his first old car and doesnt know much about mechanical work.

For starters he has a huuuge vacuum leak. (He tried to install a new intake and four barrel carb on his own). His water pump went bad and began to leak around the pulley area and he did not fix it and he continued to drive his car all over town. He would refill it but nonetheless that thing was broken and leaking bad. Also has a huge exhaust leak... After the intake swap he did not go to headers or get a blocking plate for the exhaust manifold, so that thing is open and ticking like crazy when it's on.

What happened and why I feel it's a blown head gasket.

He got stranded at autozone when his throttle cable snapped. He called me an I went over there and had him purchase a universal throttle cable. Got that hooked up and I corrected the way the carb was hooked up. He had the throttle cable hooked up to the choke. So it would open and close the butterfly valve when he would press the gas pedal, I have no idea how this thing was even drive able when I saw that haha

So I told him to crank his car on. It wasn't cranking right. It would do like quarter cranks, with the starter knocking every couple seconds. Just a huge loud horrible mess. Then if you hold it the engine stops cranking but you can hear the starter still spinning.

If you do this enough times it will eventually start to crank but it acts as if it's not getting any spark. Then it will finally turn on but idles horrible. Needs a high idle to stay on, and when you drop it in drive it will rumble like crazy and again, want to turn off. Can't really get it past 30mph without crap getting really bad. So I have it at my house right now and I pulled the plugs to check them out. First 3 or 4 look as if that may be where the gasket leaked. Then 5 and 6 are oil/gas fouled I believe. Gonna run a compression test before I pull the head, just to give me somewhat of an idea of what could be going on.

What I think happened...
Vacuum leak and incorrectly set up carb= poor running condition
Exhaust leak-maybe could have affected the valves??
Bad water pump-culprit of issue. The car was run with a bad water pump/leaking. Ran the engine dry had no idea it was heating up and blew a head gasket.
Bad crank-water in the cylinders, not letting the engine crank right until it's pushed out enough water, then once you've dumped enough fuel it will finally ignite and let the engine run. Of course the blown head gasket is causing the improper running.

My plan is to run a compression check, pull the head, check it out, get the head inspected at the machine shop and redone according to what they feel (I got a good machinist). Check out the piston tops and cylinder bores. Of course drain the oil pan and look for water which I bet there is, hopefully not any metal shavings. Slap it all back together if all is well, put the water pump back on and make sure timing is correct.

I decided to post on this because I just want to get a second opinion on what somebody thinks could be the issue? I feel like it's a blown head gasket maybe worse...

Slant six duster, I believe it's the 225. 904 column shift. Electronic ignition. Recent tune up.
 

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1st 3 look well washed.if he drove it all over town for a decent time with water in oil id be a little suspect of the bottom end. Depending on noises its making.
 
Coulda just blown the gasket but even if so, probalby has warped the head and perhaps the block too. If the head is cracked, then no real reason that the block can't be cracked too. So just re-working the head may or may not be a waste of time. At the very least if there is coolant in the cylinders

Your idea of the hydrolock is not all that far fetched. If it happened while running, then a rod could easily be bent; and if not a bent rod, rings or even ring lands on a piston can be busted. With the head off, rotate the engine so each piston pair is at TDC and see if they all come up evenly; use a scale to measure them closely, don't just eyeball. No way to really tell on the rings and lands without pulling them all (that I know of). If there is that much coolant in the cylinder(s), then I'd just be pulling it all out.

I kinda want to see your friend (from a distance, like observing in a zoo) and then again I kinda don't..... LOL
 
Cooling system pressure test would be my number 1 go-to, but would require the W/P to be replaced first.So in this case, yup; compression test is number 1.Well, actually, number 2. Checking for water in the oilpan would be #1.
-Boy, I have got to learn to type faster!
 
Hahaha yea I'm kinda suspecting there could be an issue with the bottom end.

I hear ya on the abuse of the car part haha even not knowing anything about mechanic work, an engine acting like this sounds by no means correct, not normal at all. I would have parked that thing at the leaky water pump, until it was repaired.

Anyways he is my friend and I have agreed to help him. He's just completely oblivious when it comes to cars, probably not the best thing to do (buy an old car).

I'm not too sure how long it was driven with a blown head gasket.
Alright well... I'll pull it off see what's up! Thanks fabo
 
Update:

I drained the oil today and to my surprise I did not find any metal in the oil. Also I didn't find any water in the oil. It seems to be burning oil though... It only had about 3.5 quarts of oil in it.

Do I feel it is still a blown head gasket? I feel it has to be, right?

The reason I didn't see any water in the oil could be do to the very leaky water pump? Can't circulate water if there is none.

I'd like to run a compression test, not sure how to go about it seeing that it takes a bit for it to actually crank, only does quarterish cranks In the beginning. Plus seeing I just dumped oil out of it.

The loss of oil could indicate burning oil through the cylinders... Probably not an oil leak.

I have no idea how many miles are on this engine. It's numbers matching and the odometer reads 700,000 something. So it's maybe been rebuilt 2-3 times?

Off with the head now? Or try the best I can to run a compression test?
 
Well, you are working fast! Any brown foamy stuff in the oil? Look in the PCV and pull the valve cover off and look under there. If any water/coolant had been in the oil for any length of time, you will usually find some brownish foamy gunk (stuff that looks like it was floating on the top of a septic pond). With the valve cover off, looks to see if all the valves are in place and no springs are broken.

Well, you won't get valid compression readings with the enigne not spinning freely. Did you take out all the plugs and see if it spins better? Going back to your original description, it sounds like maybe the starter is not engaging the flywheel right. Is the starter tight?

If the starter does not work consistently, do this to see if the engine bottom end turns freely and check other possibel problems at the same time:
- Take out all the plugs to relieve the compression pressure
- Pull up on the fan belt pretty hard between alternator and crank pullies, and turn the engine by hand with the fan as a lever. Better yet, get a 3/4" x 16 thread, 1-1/2" or 2" long bolt and wide flat washer, clean out the threads on the inside of the crank snout (in the hole in the crank pulley/dampener), and put the bolt in, and turn it with a wrench (1-1/8" across the flats for a 3/4" bolt)
- See if the engine turns consistently freely with no clanks or anything tightening up' don't force it. Also, have the valve cover off and see if the valves move up and down completely; if not moving at all, the timing chain is broken. Look at each valve carefully as it opens and make sure it smoothly starts to close right after it stops opening as you roate the engine, and then close ALL the way. Check all of the pushrods to see if any are bent. (See below)
- While you do this, take out the starter and slowly rotate the engine bit by bit and look at the teeth on the ring gear to see if there are any stripped spots. And look at the teeth on the starter bendix gear to see if they are chipped.

Aftrer this if the crank turns freely, I would try to run a compression test as that is good info to have...... assuming ALL of the valves are free (see below). Put some oil back in first. If the crank is free, then it perhaps is a bad starter or the ring gear is shot. Is this an auto or manual trannie?

Also, has this car sat for a while? If so, the varnish in the old gas can cause the valves to stick and it will cause all sorts of bad running symptoms, like a bad cylinder head gasket. This is surpisingly common. That is why you should have the valve cover out and carefully observe the action of each and every valve while rotating the engine. If some are sticking badly enough, they could be being hit by the piston and some may even be bent; any bent push rods are a sure sign of this going on.

If you suspect any sticking valves, pull off the rocker assembly and tap each valve open with a hammer and a hard wooden dowel (or a hard plastic hammer), and see if each valve snaps shut. See if any of them show signs of sticking.

Merry Christmas!
 
My guess is a leaky intake gasket causing it to burn water and leak vacuum; I'd do the compression AND a leak down test if you can, then I'd re-seal the intake/exhaust, replace the water pump and address whatever else is going on.


Good luck, slap him for me will ya? Sheesh.
 
JHC, 700000 miles? What year is it? if its a 63-74 the spark plugs dont use washers, take them off.

oh and the throttle connected to the choke? classic!
 
Thanks for all the input fellas. I'm taking everything into consideration! I believe it's a 73 so your right. Should have no washers.

It hasn't sat for too long I don't think. But I won't be surprised if there is something up with the valves.

I might just take things apart and I spect them all.

Sometimes you kinda have to take things apart inspect and test them and then put it all back together the right way.
 
I've got a friend like that.. Loves old cars and driving them, but when there's an issue it's, "it'll work itself out" before fixing it.
 
Yea the car is rough... Engine condition I just don't know at all now.

From what I get he said it was running crappy after the intake and carb swap. Of course due to bad installation leading to major vacuum leaks an untuned carb. A bolt on eddy though shouldn't be that out of whack really. from what it looks like, and I wouldn't be surprised!! -no intake manifold gasket or exhaust manifold gasket-

I tried finding out when and for how long it was driven with a blown head gasket (if that's the case).

He said after the carb/intake swap, drove like crap. Water pump leak started about 2-3 days after. Continued to drive the car like that for around a week. The day before he called me he said it was doing the quarter cranks the other day and he didn't start it.

Then after I helped him out and saw how it was acting, and analyzed everything I informed him, that this car is by no means drive able. From what I understand he was driving the car like that. I am shocked because I by no means would have driven that thing. It vibrates the car like your in a major earthquake. That engine is running so rough and hard that it is shaking all over that engine bay like crazy.

I haven't gotten to really mess with it due to the holidays.

When I get the time I'm gonna really just tear into everything and do it right. Could just be a bad build up of incorrectly installed things and broken stuff.

In a way at least the oil looked alright.

Merry Christmas FABO!!!
 
I bet a donut the spark plug wires are out of whack too. Slants are smooth when the valves are not stuck.
 
PoisonDart74 said:
My guess is a leaky intake gasket causing it to burn water and leak vacuum; I'd do the compression AND a leak down test if you can, then I'd re-seal the intake/exhaust, replace the water pump and address whatever else is going on.
Click to expand...
Unlike the V-8's, there is no water flow into the /6 intake so there is no water passage in the intake gasket to leak. Water leaks are indeed possible from the manifold studs but that leaks on the outside of the block.

There are 3 bolts in a stock intake that go into the exhaust aroudn the carb area; I assume these are use on the 4 BBL intake but don't know for sure. These only get finger tightened initially; torque down all the intake/exhaust manifold bolts to the head first (10 ft lbs) and then torque the 3 bolts; the inner one goes to 20 ft lbs and the outer 2 to 10-15.

This is a very good article to read from some very experienced /6 guys: http://www.slantsix.org/articles/manifold-install/types-mounting.htm I would follow as much of this as you can, including the clean up and anti-sieze on the exhaust manifold bolting ears, to keep the exhaust form cracking. If you use any sealer, then use a flexible sealer like suggested in the above article. Follow the washer palcement as shown in the article; hopefully the special washers are all still there.
 
Andre68 said:
Thanks for all the input fellas. I'm taking everything into consideration! I believe it's a 73 so your right. Should have no washers.

It hasn't sat for too long I don't think. But I won't be surprised if there is something up with the valves.

I might just take things apart and I spect them all.

Sometimes you kinda have to take things apart inspect and test them and then put it all back together the right way.
Click to expand...
Yes, with all the variety of symptoms, you're on the money there; I'd be looking at a lot of things 'til it can all be pretty well explained.
 
You are going to land up re-building the whole thing. And your friend does not need a four barrel, ween him on just a couple.
 
Took the head off today. Gonna upload the photos.

If I'm not mistaken the white valves indicates where the water/coolant was getting in??

I inspected the head gasket and I can't really seem to find where it leaked from. Then again since this thing was probably running dry it could have blown with no water/coolant in the block so that way it's hard to find the actual spot?

When I pulled the head off no draining was needed because that thing was empty!

I didn't see any rust in the cylinder walls?

Walls do look done though, no cross hatching on the cylinders walls so... High mileage for sure. No groove on cylinder walls up top though....

Any idea on mileage?? For sure north of 150,000 correct? Maybe 200,000?

Haven't had the chance to crank it by hand yet. I set out to try and find a bolt for the crank but I couldn't find one, and had no spare mopar engines lying around to borrow the bolt from.

Gonna upload my photos.
 

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Also got some green staining on the valve springs. Easily wipes off when you rub it off but I take it that's maybe coolant?
 
I turned mine over when I had it apart by grabbing the fan and pulling on it.

Have you considered that it may not have had coolant in the cylinders? Those exhaust valves look pretty well cooked. When mine burned they didn't even look that bad yet.

Was this motor banging on all 6 cylinders before-hand? I don't mean to insult but did you pull each plug while it was running to see if it ran worse when you took the wire off each one? Mine was banging on 5 cylinders due to a bent pushrod, then started running on 4 (I did not know the pushrod was bent or 1 cylinder down because it ran fine) then one of the exhaust valves burned, and I assumed the gasket cracked. I popped the head and found some clogged coolant passages, and bad valve (the one that quit working) but then it could work it's way past the rings anyway, so it may not be visible.

The way I checked if mine was leaking was spraying a bunch of wd40 on the head upside down and seeing if it leaked past anything. Sure enough it leaked past a few exhaust valves and I had the head rebuilt for $270 - new valves, everything.


When you turn it over if the motor is not too dry, coolant will shoot out of that hole in the back left. I found that out the stupid way... and had to clean it all up.



That wd-40 thing an old mechanic guy suggested to me. Pretty easy to tell what's leaking that way. You can see my exhaust valves were just as white, and there was no coolant in the rest of the block.
 
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