Possible dumb question about AC-DC

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TrailBeast

AKA Mopars4us on Youtube
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If an alternator is AC (alternating current) and DC is direct current, then when AC is converted to DC by allowing current to only flow one way because of the diodes, then this means it only uses 50% of the AC current to make DC so where does the other 50% of the AC go?
 
Please don't shoot the messenger..........Just couldn't resist :tongue3:

[ame]http://youtu.be/gEPmA3USJdI[/ame]
 
If you use a single diode you use the current flowing one way and the current flowing the other is not used (not consumed), if you use a bridge rectifier ( 4 diodes ) the sine wave is folded back on itself and you get to use it all as DC.
 
It depends on what quantity of AC we are talking about to say whether anything is "lost". Power = (current) x (voltage drop) at any instant (whether AC or DC). So when a diode stops current flow, there is no power delivered, used, or wasted. Anyway, the alternator is a more clever design with multiple generating coils and 6 diodes, so current is always flowing out thru one of the diodes. The alternator (tries) to generate 3-phase AC power and the diodes force it to flow out on a single lead as a fairly steady DC current.

What many people don't know (I know TrailBeast does) is that the alternator output is always connected to the battery (key doesn't turn it off). You totally rely on the 3 output diodes in the alternator blocking reverse current flow while the car is off. If they leak too much, your battery can slowly discharge. Of course they always leak to some extent, as do all semi-conductors, so might drain down the battery after a year.
 
If you use a single diode you use the current flowing one way and the current flowing the other is not used (not consumed), if you use a bridge rectifier ( 4 diodes ) the sine wave is folded back on itself and you get to use it all as DC.

This is what I was wondering that lead me to ask the question in the first place (is the negative part of the AC wasted/grounded or used)
Thanks, now I want to chk into the sine wave and bridge rectifier deal, even though I can picture what you are saying and it makes sense.


It depends on what quantity of AC we are talking about to say whether anything is "lost". Power = (current) x (voltage drop) at any instant (whether AC or DC). So when a diode stops current flow, there is no power delivered, used, or wasted. Anyway, the alternator is a more clever design with multiple generating coils and 6 diodes, so current is always flowing out thru one of the diodes. The alternator (tries) to generate 3-phase AC power and the diodes force it to flow out on a single lead as a fairly steady DC current.

What many people don't know (I know TrailBeast does) is that the alternator output is always connected to the battery (key doesn't turn it off). You totally rely on the 3 output diodes in the alternator blocking reverse current flow while the car is off. If they leak too much, your battery can slowly discharge. Of course they always leak to some extent, as do all semi-conductors, so might drain down the battery after a year.

Right, and what you said that I highlighted in blue was my original thought and question.
But I seem to have a hard time with that theory because I tend to think that there is no positive without negative (no power without a ground) so it seems that the ground side of the AC HAS to be wasted for it to produce positive DC voltage. (I don't think wasted is the right word)

So in the bridge rectifier system the negative is transormed to positive by the "folding" of the wave, so what happens to the negative when the wave "folds"
See why I'm stuck there?

Is that also a function of the bridge recifier (to swap positive and negative as the wave folds?
That would make sense.
 
This might be easier to understand if you would Google up "half wave" and "full wave" rectifier. Think of the output winding (transformer) as an "instant battery" "frozen in time." Depending on the polarity of the sine wave, "frozen" the output of a transformer is a battery, either positive at one end, or switched around, positive at the other end.

So let's start simply. In a simple half wave, the top of the transformer output is positive half the time. Current flows against the arrow of the diode, neg to pos, to the left. So current flows when the top of the transformer winding is positive. Electron flow is from the bottom of the load (neg) up through the load, through the diode to the top of the transformer, and out the bottom of the transformer, back to the load

THE ARROWS IN THESE DIAGRAMS ARE BACKWARDS FROM CONVENTIONAL 'ELECTRON' FLOW

diode14.gif



When the top of the transformer is negative, the diode shuts off, just like a check valve in water During this half of the cycle, with no current flowing, the "gap" is produced in the pulsing output waveform. THIS IS WHY half wave rectifiers are harder to filter. This gap causes a "rough" output, more of a "buzz" so to speak. This is known as the "ripple frequency" and is half the frequency of a full wave rectifier

Below is a "full wave center tap" rectifier. Essentially, this is "two half wave back to back"

In this circuit, a negative ground supply, if you wish to think in those terms, would be grounded at point C

At a point in the sine wave, A will be positive, C will be less positive, and B will be least positive. That is if you were to put a scope across A and B, you would see a sine wave. If the transformer was perfectly made, C would be at the zero crossover.

So, with A positive, and C less positive, current flows through the top diode JUST LIKE our half wave rectifier earlier. This produces a pulse of power. Our instantaneous circuit is from the left side of the load, through the load left to right, back through the diode to the top (A) of the transformer, and out the center tap and back to the load

At this same instant, B is the most negative to C, so the bottom diode is OFF

Now the sine wave switches, and things are reversed. Now A at the top is most negative, and the TOP diode is shut off

B at the bottom is now the most positive, with C being less positive, so now the BOTTOM diode conducts and this produces the second pulse right next to the first. This time our instantaneous circuit is from the left side of the load, through the load to the right, down through the bottom diode to "B" at the bottom of the transformer, and back out through the center tap....to the left side of the load

IN A half wave rectifier, nothing would be conducting during this time, and that would produce the gap in the DC pulse waveform.

diode18.gif



The rest of this page goes on with a bridge

http://www.electronics-tutorials.ws/diode/diode_6.html

The bridge is different than a full wave center tap because there "is no" center tap. In this diagram, again we have the transformer positive at the top, with the bottom of the load being our NEG side of the supply. With the top of the transformer positive, current flows from (incorrectly labeled in the diagram, 'we' go by electron flow) the bottom of the transformer, .........from right to left in the bottom blue diode, ...........out and up through the load, ...........from right to left in the top blue diode and back to the positive top of the transformer. THIS PRODUCES one pulse in the output DC waveform.
diode21.gif


Now the sine wave has switched, and so now the BOTTOM of the transformer is positive. We have exactly the same situation as above. This time electrons flow from the TOP of the transformer, down right to left through the top blue diode, out and up through the load, down and to the right through the bottom right hand blue diode, and to the (now positive) bottom of the transformer.

This produces the next pulse of DC in the output, stacked right next to the first

diode22.gif
 
Alternators can get a little more complicated. This is because in a 3 phase transformer you can have either a "delta" or a "wye" output. GM, example, made both. A "wye" has a center tap which brings all three windings together

This diagram, stolen from the net is "delta" wound. Ignore all the nonsense, just look at the 6 rectifiers and the main winding which form a "delta" triangle

alternator.jpg
 
That's pretty cool how that works, and it explains a lot.
Thank for taking the time to do that Del.
 
Take apart an old delcotron alternator and meter the diode trio and rectifier for continuity. Then look at the three leads of the stator windings and follow the path of power to the battery.......really pretty simple.
 
Take apart an old delcotron alternator and meter the diode trio and rectifier for continuity. Then look at the three leads of the stator windings and follow the path of power to the battery.......really pretty simple.

Actually, it's not. That simple. Three phase rectifiers have "complications" because the waveforms overlap.

In a 3 phase winding feeding a rectifier, you are always using TWO windings, which are slightly out of phase with each other. This means they don't "add" simply. You have to plot the phase difference to find the addition.

It is difficult to find a website which gets down to the basics

http://services.eng.uts.edu.au/~venkat/pe_html/ch05s1/ch05s1p1.htm

Most of you guys cannot imagine how difficult this stuff was before the advent of solid state diodes. When I first got into amateur radio, a bridge consisted of at least three or 4 vacuum tubes. You had to have THREE separate filament transformers. All these transformers ---or at least separate windings on one power transformer--had to have enough insulation to stand the high peak voltage and not break down the transformer insulation.

For that reason "back then" it was somewhat more common to find full wave "center tap" rectifiers rather than bridge.

This is a commercial 1 KW AM transmitter, small for a broadcast transmitter, "big" for amateur radio

No it ain't mine. The tubes are 4-400 tetrodes, meaning 4 elements...cathode, control grid, screen grid, and plate, or anode. The two RF "final" PA (power amplifier) tubes on the right are modulated by the two on the left, the "modulators." This amounts to a pretty fair sized audio amplifier of about 500 watts output.

Something like this needed a serious power supply, with "mercury vapor" rectifiers, back in the day

4_500A_Finals_Glow_2.JPG


Mercury vapor rectifiers, always "fun" to watch the blue / purple glow. You could monitor your keying by watching them.

mv_rectifiers.jpg
 
Yea, it wasn't just the basic power flow I was curious about.
It was more about the wave folding and where the currents ended up.
(Though I didn't know that when I asked, but Del's explanation fixed that)
 
dont forget the electrons know what color the wires are. LOL LOL


Are you indicating that electrons are "racist"??? :wack:


Two neutrons walk into a bar. On the way in, one of them bumps into the door frame. He turns to his friend and says, "I think that I've lost an electron".

His friend asks, "Are you sure?"

He replies, "I'm positive...." :D



A neutron walks into a bar. He goes up to the bar and orders a beer. As the bartender hands it to him, the neutron asks, "What do I owe you for the drink?"

The bartender replies, "For you, no charge...." :D
 
An electron and a neutron walk into a bar.
They ask the bartender "Wasn't there a quark here a second ago?"
The bartender say's "There was before you thought to ask"
 
By the way I learned "electron" flow, IE neg to positive flow. These diagrams are backwards from that. Are classes nowadays teaching different?


I've got an old 1920's radio book..........it's old enough to have "spark" and "arc" transmitters (they are different) as well as vacuum tube transmitters and receivers. But while they DO talk a bit about electron flow, they also infer that there is "current" flowing from positive to negative!!!

And I can STILL remember laughing in Navy ET-A school class the day the instructor taught us the "color code." I could never remember the darn thing up to then.............LOL

(By the way this same code is useful for WIRE numbering too!!!)

Bad Boys Rape Our Young Girls But Violet Gives Willingly

clr_code.gif
 

:smile: LOL.........I knew in advance this would be a very informative thread!!

And Yes, I'm lying........I have NO idea what you guys are talking about as the info is waaaaay too far over my head :scratch:
 
I always thought electrons were not present in a wire or conductor unless they had a place to go, like a ground or resistance.
Is this true?

Example:
If a peice of wire is connected to a positive electrical source and it is not connected to anything, are there electrons in the wire already?
Or do the electrons wait at the source till there is a path for it to continue to
a ground?


PS Leave to our military to come up with a phrase like that.
 
Its is the best way to remember things for 18- 20 old studs.
 
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