Power Brakes - to keep or not to keep

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gunmetal72

Life is a dark ride
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Well I have been screwing around with he power brakes on my 72 340 Duster now for about 2 seasons and I am getting tired of "screwing around" with them. I am hoping to get some info from some members that may have had the same issue and what they did to solve the problem on what to do with them. I know the engine now has less vacuum due to the cam I am running. Seems if I drive the car for about 5 min the brakes work not to bad but fade as the car rolls to a stop. I tried adding a vacuum reservoir but that only seem to make matters worse. Is there a solution to fix the power brakes or do I convert them to manual. I have to admit that when the power brakes work I like them which is why I kept screwing with them to get them work. I just wish they would work all the time and not fade.
 
I have manual disc/drum in mine and it stops plenty good for me. It's all about respecting the car and your driving abilities
 
my GTS came with power disc and I have ran a vacuum pump before but I finally took them off and went with manual. Stops good to me
 
I have manual disc/drum in mine and it stops plenty good for me. It's all about respecting the car and your driving abilities
Me too. I had 4 wheel drums. About 10 years ago I bought a Stainless Steel Brake Corp non power front disc conversion kit. They work Great. I do not really notice that they are non power.
 
I'm actually not a fan of the factory power brakes. The effort on the manual brakes isn't bad and I personally like the feel of the manual brakes better.

That said, based on your description you may not have a booster problem. And if it's not a booster problem then going manual might not solve it either.

What brakes are you running? How much vacuum do you have at idle? And in what situations are the brakes fading?
 
I have manual disc/drum in mine and it stops plenty good for me. It's all about respecting the car and your driving abilities

Not sure what the second part of this guys response means...
The cars will stop fine with manual brakes BUT have you considered a vacuum pump? I ran one in my Charger for awhile and it worked really well. I went to a milder cam though and removed it.
 
Several similar threads over the years. From what I've seen, majority of those who added a vacuum pump or hydraulic boost setup ( compensating for performance cam ) took that stuff back off and went to manual brakes.
Any power assist is only that. Reduces operator effort. In the case of brakes, and again from what I've read, a slight change in master cylinder bore diameter will effect pedal effort also. So if/when you drop the assist, research what manual brake master cylinder works best.
 
If keeping the power brake booster means I will need spend more money on a vacuum pump and there is still the possibility they will not work properly, would it make more sense to just do the manual brake conversion?, from what I am hearing, manual brakes probably work better then what I have now.
 
If you want authenticity then keep it and find out why you are having the fade issues after some drive time! Sounds like you really have a lining issue.

I have a bit of an issue anytime, cold or warm but know the cam hurts it. Authenticity of this piece matters to me so it stays and I live with what I believe is to hard to press pedal effort short of decent deceleration during braking. No fade issue though!

All my other early Mopars were non power assisted and seemed just fine on pedal pressure, drum or disc!
 
If you want authenticity then keep it and find out why you are having the fade issues after some drive time! Sounds like you really have a lining issue.

I have a bit of an issue anytime, cold or warm but know the cam hurts it. Authenticity of this piece matters to me so it stays and I live with what I believe is to hard to press pedal effort short of decent deceleration during braking. No fade issue though!

All my other early Mopars were non power assisted and seemed just fine on pedal pressure, drum or disc!

rear brake linings and front pads are new. When I say the brake fades I mean they work like a power brake should when you first push the pedal and as the car slows I find myself pushing harder because the booster seems to lose vacuum
 
I ran the 292/108/508 cam with power brakes and a manual trans. I had no trouble with the booster I pulled from a 73 Dart. Yes at first start there was no assist.But with couple of blips, it came on line. With a manual trans I am always downshifting so the vacuum always stays high enough for full assist.
Your reservoir should have enough vacuum stored in it for at least one full assist from 30 mph with the engine shut off.
If you are running a lo-stall TC the engine is forced into an rpm where it makes very little vacuum. If you are also running a very small rear gear, then the engine is further forced to stay there continually.
If your timing is too retarded, the engine will not pull a good vacuum until a little later than it should.
Try this.
Put a vacuum gauge on the intake.With the engine warmed up, rev it up until the vacuum peaks. Note the rpm and the max reading. Run the car up to 30 mph, in whatever gear will get you at least close to that rpm of peak vacuum. For example if your engine vacuum peaks at 2200 rpm, stick in first and run it up to 30 mph. If the Rs are over 2200 great! If it will do it in second use that gear. Shut the car off and brake to a stop. If the assist goes AWOL your booster is not working right. You could; Beg borrow or steal another for a test. But before you do, pull the M/C away from the booster until you see the little plunger in there.It is adjustable. Figure out what size wrenches you need and make it one turn longer.Then try it again.Watch out! It should take a bit less pedal pressure to affect the same stop as before. Remember to bring up the vacuum so the darn thing can work. If there is no difference, there is something wrong with it. But just in case the adjustment is waaay out to lunch, make that plunger 1 turn longer and try it again. You can continue in this way until the brakes stick on, then the plunger is too long and the fluid is failing to return to the reservoir thru the compensating port; you will have to shorten it one turn.
Now, the longer you make that rod the sooner and more violently that booster should assist. To the point that your body will be thrown ahead when applying the usual pedal force. If it doesn't, then either the booster it is not working, or someone has put a smaller M/C in there. You can measure the M/C by pulling it away from the booster and sticking a caliper in the back of it. The Power M/C is usually about 17/16 while the smallest is a 15/16( I think).
If you have drum front brakes as you come to a stop you should have to reduce pedal to stop smoothly.NOT press harder.
If you have disc fronts,it should be one continuous same pedal pressure, with perhaps a tiny bit more pressure as the car comes to a smooth stop.
 
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I got tired of fiddlin with mine so I converted to manual.

I installed this kit in an hour or so and everything went flawlessly:

Store | Bob Mazzolini Racing

Firm pedal feel and nice, balanced braking now.
 
I ran the 292/108/508 cam with power brakes and a manual trans. I had no trouble with the booster I pulled from a 73 Dart. Yes at first start there was no assist.But with couple of blips, it came on line. With a manual trans I am always downshifting so the vacuum always stays high enough for full assist.
Your reservoir should have enough vacuum stored in it for at least one full assist from 30 mph with the engine shut off.
If you are running a lo-stall TC the engine is forced into an rpm where it makes very little vacuum. If you are also running a very small rear gear, then the engine is further forced to stay there continually.
If your timing is too retarded, the engine will not pull a good vacuum until a little later than it should.
Try this.
Put a vacuum gauge on the intake.With the engine warmed up, rev it up until the vacuum peaks. Note the rpm and the max reading. Run the car up to 30 mph, in whatever gear will get you at least close to that rpm of peak vacuum. For example if your engine vacuum peaks at 2200 rpm, stick in first and run it up to 30 mph. If the Rs are over 2200 great! If it will do it in second use that gear. Shut the car off and brake to a stop. If the assist goes AWOL your booster is not working right. You could; Beg borrow or steal another for a test. But before you do, pull the M/C away from the booster until you see the little plunger in there.It is adjustable. Figure out what size wrenches you need and make it one turn longer.Then try it again.Watch out! It should take a bit less pedal pressure to affect the same stop as before. Remember to bring up the vacuum so the darn thing can work. If there is no difference, there is something wrong with it. But just in case the adjustment is waaay out to lunch, make that plunger 1 turn longer and try it again. You can continue in this way until the brakes stick on, then the plunger is too long and the fluid is failing to return to the reservoir thru the compensating port; you will have to shorten it one turn.
Now, the longer you make that rod the sooner and more violently that booster should assist. To the point that your body will be thrown ahead when applying the usual pedal force. If it doesn't, then either the booster it is not working, or someone has put a smaller M/C in there. You can measure the M/C by pulling it away from the booster and sticking a caliper in the back of it. The Power M/C is usually about 17/16 while the smallest is a 15/16( I think).
If you have drum front brakes as you come to a stop you should have to reduce pedal to stop smoothly.NOT press harder.
If you have disc fronts,it should be one continuous same pedal pressure, with perhaps a tiny bit more pressure as the car comes to a smooth stop.

My car is also a 4 speed, it has front disc and rear drum brakes. I did not know the little plunger between the M/C and the booster is adjustable. I will do what you suggest and lengthen it, at least it won't cost me any more $, just a little time.
I also changed the M/C when I did the build. Not sure what the bore size of the new M/C is, if it is the smaller one, will that make a big difference?
 
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My car is also a 4 speed, it has front disc and rear drum brakes. I did not know the little plunger between the M/C and the booster is adjustable. I will do what you suggest and lengthen it, at least it won't cost me any more $, just a little time.
I also changed the M/C when I did the build. Not sure what the bore size of the new M/C is, if it is the smaller one, will that make a big difference?


Careful adjusting that. If you set it to long the piston in the master won't let the fluid back and the calipers will overheat and bad news! Read the manual the rod is to be set a certain distance from the face of the booster!
 
One approach is to install Rhoads variable lifters. That will not only give more vacuum, but much better idle, mileage, low-end torque, and less gagging fumes. But, some people like the "crappy idle" sound of racing cam, though it irks the engineer in me. Vintage boosters are rare and expensive. You can get new kits, based on GM boosters, for ~$150 on ebay. Not available when I did my 65 Dart. I went cheap and used a booster & MC for a 95-99 Mopar "cloud car", which you can see in my avatar. Had to rat-tail file the mounting holes on 1974 Dart firewall brackets to fit, and barely clears my taller after-market valve covers.
 
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