Qa1 6 link kit?
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And here's Tomswheels set up on his old Valiant. This is from his for sale thread over on Pro-Touring.com 1967 Plymouth Valiant Sorted 2015 Autocross Winner, USCA, $18K obo
He also has a complete build thread detailing the car and a lot of his outings here...67 Valiant budget built to race 2015 | Corners Are Best - Handling Tech | Moparts Forums
It's not listed in his list of upgrades, but I know he was running 1.06" torsion bars from Firm Feel. Here's his list-
List of upgrades:
360 V8 with an original A833 4spd, new clutch
New Holley Street Avenger
Custom balanced Driveshaft
8.8 limited slip rear, upgraded with new clutch pack and new 31 spline axles
Hotchkis front and rear Swaybars.
Hotchkis subframe connectors.
Hotchkis upper a arms.
Hotchkis rear leafs.
Fox / Hotchkis adjustable shocks.
Fully strengthened and welded front subframe with updated spool mounts.
Borgeson steering upgraded box out of modern Jeep Cherokee.
Aluminum Radiator.
TTI shorty headers.
Full new 2.5 inch dual exhaust.
Full custom Roll Cage.
17 Gallon Fuel Cell.
New Dakota Digital VHX Guages.
Custom widened rear fenders.
Front fiberglass bumper, rear Optima Battery resulted in 3250 lb curb weight with full tank, 53F,47R.
Wilwood 4 piston front discs on upgraded 11.75 rotors in front, rear discs off 95 Mustang.
Recaro drivers seat with 5 point harness.
Full custom paint in TCP "Firemist Purple".
Full set of New 18x10 wheels with 4 event 285/35/18 Hankook RS3 tires.
Full set of 18x10 front, 19x10.5 rear Bullitt style wheels (fits 305/30/19 rear tire)
He also has a complete build thread detailing the car and a lot of his outings here...67 Valiant budget built to race 2015 | Corners Are Best - Handling Tech | Moparts Forums
It's not listed in his list of upgrades, but I know he was running 1.06" torsion bars from Firm Feel. Here's his list-
List of upgrades:
360 V8 with an original A833 4spd, new clutch
New Holley Street Avenger
Custom balanced Driveshaft
8.8 limited slip rear, upgraded with new clutch pack and new 31 spline axles
Hotchkis front and rear Swaybars.
Hotchkis subframe connectors.
Hotchkis upper a arms.
Hotchkis rear leafs.
Fox / Hotchkis adjustable shocks.
Fully strengthened and welded front subframe with updated spool mounts.
Borgeson steering upgraded box out of modern Jeep Cherokee.
Aluminum Radiator.
TTI shorty headers.
Full new 2.5 inch dual exhaust.
Full custom Roll Cage.
17 Gallon Fuel Cell.
New Dakota Digital VHX Guages.
Custom widened rear fenders.
Front fiberglass bumper, rear Optima Battery resulted in 3250 lb curb weight with full tank, 53F,47R.
Wilwood 4 piston front discs on upgraded 11.75 rotors in front, rear discs off 95 Mustang.
Recaro drivers seat with 5 point harness.
Full custom paint in TCP "Firemist Purple".
Full set of New 18x10 wheels with 4 event 285/35/18 Hankook RS3 tires.
Full set of 18x10 front, 19x10.5 rear Bullitt style wheels (fits 305/30/19 rear tire)
You know whatd be neat and useful to see, times of the same car and driver, torsion bar first, then the coil over kit......hmmm
It would be neat, but good luck. That would require someone having a well set up torsion bar car, then swapping in a coil over kit, setting it up properly again, and then running the same track in the same conditions. You'd have over $10k just into parts between the two set ups.
There was a comparison done with the same driver though. Tire Rack did some tire testing using the Hotchkis Taxi. In fact, there's a video of TireRack's professional test driver in which he drives the Hotchkis Taxi in a tire comparison and compares his times to the stock 3 series BMW's that he usually drives to test for TireRack. The Hotchkis Taxi, a 4 door '70 Satellite, was over a second a lap faster. That's a torsion bar leaf spring '70 more door around the track faster than a 2012 3 series Beemer.
Here's the video. A little long. You can pretty much just start at the 3minute mark. At 4:30 you can watch the Hotchkis Taxi kicking butt. And at 6:00 min TireRack's professional driver goes into how the Hotckis Taxi is a full second a lap faster than the BMW 3 series, even though Woody (tirerack's driver) had never driven a "protouring set up car" before the test and has probably turned thousands of laps with that 3 series.
There was a comparison done with the same driver though. Tire Rack did some tire testing using the Hotchkis Taxi. In fact, there's a video of TireRack's professional test driver in which he drives the Hotchkis Taxi in a tire comparison and compares his times to the stock 3 series BMW's that he usually drives to test for TireRack. The Hotchkis Taxi, a 4 door '70 Satellite, was over a second a lap faster. That's a torsion bar leaf spring '70 more door around the track faster than a 2012 3 series Beemer.
Here's the video. A little long. You can pretty much just start at the 3minute mark. At 4:30 you can watch the Hotchkis Taxi kicking butt. And at 6:00 min TireRack's professional driver goes into how the Hotckis Taxi is a full second a lap faster than the BMW 3 series, even though Woody (tirerack's driver) had never driven a "protouring set up car" before the test and has probably turned thousands of laps with that 3 series.
67autocross
A new iron curtain drawn across the 49th parallel
It would....but in the end I would guess that all you would find out is that with the same tires,weight and horsepower the car would end up lapping about the same time once you had the suspension tuned.
Yup. This is exactly what you would find, assuming that you had enough adjustability in each system to tune the car "perfectly". If the car remains the same weight and runs the same tires, you've got the same traction coefficient and you'd get the same G loading unless the suspension was "getting in the way" of the physics. The only question would be is if each suspension set up had enough adjustability to get you the proper tune. The physics is ultimately the same, a spring is a spring. It used to be the tuning options for the torsion bar suspensions were pretty limited, not many torsion bar sizes were offered, same for shocks, unless you went fully custom. In the last few years though the options for tuning the torsion bar suspension have really grown, and I don't think it really limits the ability to get a properly tuned car anymore. That was by far the biggest advantage the coilovers offered, more tuning options. But I don't think its the case anymore.
Every suspension system has its strengths and weaknesses, suspension design is always a trade off. But with a proper set up and everything else remaining equal I think the performance difference between the different systems would be close to negligible.
As far as I'm concerned, there's only a few real advantages to going to a coilover front suspension on one of our mopars, and handling isn't one of them. Rack and pinion steering is probably the biggest advantage. But it doesn't change the performance, just the feel. You can be just as fast with a worm and sector box. The next is real estate for the headers and oil pan, especially for late model hemi swaps. That's a problem that can be worked around, but I definitely see the advantage. But that's about it. And it comes at the cost of the ridiculously easy ride height adjustment we have with the torsion bars, not to mention the lower center of gravity. And of course, you MUST reinforce the upper shock mounts to use ANY of the coilover systems. These chassis' were not designed to carry load from the suspension vertically, it's meant to be spread horizontally through the K and the torsion bar crossmember. That's probably the biggest disadvantage of the conversion, working against the factory chassis design for load distribution. It's less of an issue if you're already doing a bunch of chassis stiffening, but if that's not in the works it's a problem.
And there's nothing wrong with a torsion bar suspension. The latest incarnation of the Ford GT uses a torsion bar suspension. It uses push rods, but it's a torsion bar suspension none the less.
For the rear I think a triangulated 4 link, or a 3 link for cars without crazy horsepower, is probably a better way to go than the leaf spring rear. But, with that said, there are plenty of people that are plenty fast with leaf springs. I think the driver makes a much bigger difference than a leaf spring to 4 link conversion.
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Actually, you don't have to reinforce the shock towers on a gTS, it doesn't even use the stock ones......... others like the HDK you do
Also, a triangulated 4 link would be the last choice besides stock leafs. At least for road race, it binds by design and has limited adjustment in it. Now a 3 link would be the best in my option, best articulation, and tunable features but the problem with a 3 link is the rear seat, you'd have to lose it in order to get the proper length to the 3rd link.
A torque arm would be neat too.
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Neither does the RMS. But that's not the point, you still need to reinforce the shock towers to strengthen the front end. The chassis is not designed to carry the suspension load vertically. It doesn't matter if you don's use the stock shock towers to mount the coilovers, you're still loading the front frame rails vertically, and they need to be reinforced in order to strengthen the front half of the chassis. Or don't, but when the front end starts flopping around you'll wish you had. The front end flops around even with torsion bars that put the suspension loads into the K, so good luck.
There are 3 links out there that don't replace the rear seat. It's a more adjustable set up for sure, but if you're making big power it's not a good idea. The triangulated 4 link is definitely less adjustable, but still probably a better option than the stock leafs. I still run leafs though, they work a lot better than most people give them credit for. My car already has more capability than I do skill to pilot it.
Here's a 3 link option. And yes, it's XV, and yes, they're back (or at least the engineer is, the rest of them not so much)
XV LEVEL II REAR SUSPENSION A, B and E Body
67autocross
A new iron curtain drawn across the 49th parallel
The other place I see a good coil front end taking a slight advantage is removing weight off the front which will help the cars distribution, I would guess you drop 75 lbs off the front end.
Maybe some day we could line up 2 similar cars with the same driver and test them....it would certainly keep the mopar boards busy after the resusts came in.
Maybe some day we could line up 2 similar cars with the same driver and test them....it would certainly keep the mopar boards busy after the resusts came in.
67autocross
A new iron curtain drawn across the 49th parallel
Here's a 3 link option. And yes, it's XV, and yes, they're back (or at least the engineer is, the rest of them not so much)
XV LEVEL II REAR SUSPENSION A, B and E Body[/QUOTE]
Bought some seat belts from XV Chris, seems like a good guy, he is interested in increasing the product line but never gave much detail one what he was planning.
XV LEVEL II REAR SUSPENSION A, B and E Body[/QUOTE]
Bought some seat belts from XV Chris, seems like a good guy, he is interested in increasing the product line but never gave much detail one what he was planning.
You can only drop that much weight if you're dropping the stock power steering and stock disk brakes. With manual steering and aftermarket brakes the weight savings is only 20-30 lbs, and that's with the stock UCA's and LCA's. Swap in tubular UCA's and LCA's like I've got and the weight savings will be just about nil. Not only that, but the weight is higher on the car because of the coilovers. The torsion bar set up will have a lower CG. The torsion bar weight is also further back than the coilover weight, so, it might not help the weight distribution that much either.
And now there's the borgeson power steering box too, which is 15 lbs lighter than the factory version. Still heavier than a power rack, but it's not a ton of weight.
This info is regarding the Gerst coilover set up, but I can't imagine any of the others would be significantly different.
A couple notes, those numbers were not counting the power steering box. If one seriously wants to pt a car, more than likely they want to have power steering, therefore they should had the 56 plus or whatever it was back in to the stock set up and add 1.7 lbs to the GTS for a power rack. Or 40 for the borgeston bix you mentioned.
I think we're spinning wheels here. The bottom line is that there are more than one way to skin this cat and each must decide what they want in their car. There's gonna be pros and cons to each type of suspension, but a suspension that is tuned and matched to the car, driver, and most importantly the tires, is gonna determine the "best" for that given car
What works in one car or at one course or with one driver, probably isn't gonna work for another.
Then you get into serious PT cars or the street driven, occasionally raced cars.
For me, I wanted full adjustment. I wanted improved KPI, improved weight balance as I like to neutral balance a car as a starting point for race weekend, I also like to play with spring changes, much easier to do that on a coil over car than a TBar (and cheaper, granted there is the inital cost but being that a good, performance rebuild plus upgrades is gonna set you back almost 2600 to 3 grand, it's a mute point), these and a few other reasons are why I went coil overs.
As far as I'm concerned the weight loss is pretty much negligible. The tubular LCA's drop 8lbs compared to the stockers. Not sure about the tubular UCA's, it probably isn't much. And if you're doing all that work you're not going to keep the stock power steering box either, so, add 40 lbs? So we're talking maybe 60 - 70 lbs? The difference is almost entirely power steering.. As far as the weight balance goes, I seriously doubt its any better. It's not significantly better, that's for sure. It might even be worse because of where the coilovers are located. The coilover suspension has all the weight up front. Do you have your corner weights? Because I have Tomswheel's. Full tank of fuel, battery in the trunk, no driver.
Like I've said before, ALL suspension is a trade off. There are advantages and disadvantages to both. But it has already been demonstrated that there's no real handling advantage for the swap. If you just absolutely need rack and pinion steering, or just can't bring yourself to put a few dents in your headers, then you can spend the extra couple grand on the coilovers. But let's not pretend that the coilovers have some great, inherent advantage. It's just a 1970's Mustang II suspension modified to fit a car that wasn't designed for it. As for the price, you can buy several extra sets of torsion bars with the money you can save with a torsion bar suspension set up compared to the coilovers.
I've posted this before, but since folks still seem to think the cost difference is small I'll post it again. Yes, you can save some money by using Hemi Denny's set up or Gerst's, but not $3k.
RMS Alterkation w/engine mounts and without brakes - $4,995
RMS Street Lynx - $1,995
Total: $6,990 (keep in mind this doesn't include installing the street lynx, which takes welding)
My Duster
Front:
1.12" torsion bars from Firm Feel: $355
Bergman Autocraft SPC UCA's:$395
Howe Racing upper ball joints: $130
Moog lower ball joints:$80
QA1 LCA's: $395
Hotchkis Shocks: $475
Hellwig 55905 front bar: $175
Flaming River 16:1 steering box: $610
QA1 tie rod sleeves: $50
Moog tie rods (all): $60
Moog pitman and idler arms: $80
Adjustable PST strut rods:$300
Rear:
Hellwig 6908 rear bar: $180 (this is the Ebody bar I run with my B-body rear axle)
AFCO 20231M springs: $320
AFCO leaf spring sliders: $200
Dr. Diff 1/2" spring offset:$150
Leaf spring perches: $15
Front suspension: 3,105
Rear suspension total: 865
Total: $3,970
So, my parts total is $3K cheaper than just the parts for the RMS alterkation and street lynx. In fact, my parts total is $1k less than just the Alterkation, and I did the whole car. My prices are mostly all Summit racing. Firm Feel, Bergman Autocraft, PST, and SD truck springs (sway bars) were also used. I used the Flaming River box in my comparison because that's what I have, but even if you added the Borgeson from BAC you're only adding $259, and that can be made up elsewhere. Maybe I'll start weighing some of this stuff so I can figure out the weight difference, but I don't care that much. It's lighter than stock, and probably pretty comparable to most of the coilover conversions.
Obviously, that's not the total cost. Brakes aren't included, neither is any of the chassis stiffening or wheels and tires. But that cost is basically the same regardless of which system you use, and the prices for the RMS conversions doesn't include any of that either. And you would still need all of it. And I included all the parts to make everything new, ie, pitman, idler, tie rod ends, ball joints etc, so that everything replaced by the RMS components would also be new on the torsion bar/leaf car. Realistically, you could save A LOT of money by not using tubular UCA's and LCA's, and just using offset UCA bushings (moog 7103) and boxing your stock LCA's and replacing the LCA bushings. Like about $700. And if you kept the stock steering you save $600. Or add a Howe steering quickner to the stock steering and still get a ratio improvement, the 1.5:1 is only $90. Drop the leaf spring sliders and save $200. Another $150 for the 1/2" spring offset. Not necessary, but without a mini-tub it gets you the same tire clearance as you'd get with the 4-link.
Like I've said before, ALL suspension is a trade off. There are advantages and disadvantages to both. But it has already been demonstrated that there's no real handling advantage for the swap. If you just absolutely need rack and pinion steering, or just can't bring yourself to put a few dents in your headers, then you can spend the extra couple grand on the coilovers. But let's not pretend that the coilovers have some great, inherent advantage. It's just a 1970's Mustang II suspension modified to fit a car that wasn't designed for it. As for the price, you can buy several extra sets of torsion bars with the money you can save with a torsion bar suspension set up compared to the coilovers.
I've posted this before, but since folks still seem to think the cost difference is small I'll post it again. Yes, you can save some money by using Hemi Denny's set up or Gerst's, but not $3k.
RMS Alterkation w/engine mounts and without brakes - $4,995
RMS Street Lynx - $1,995
Total: $6,990 (keep in mind this doesn't include installing the street lynx, which takes welding)
My Duster
Front:
1.12" torsion bars from Firm Feel: $355
Bergman Autocraft SPC UCA's:$395
Howe Racing upper ball joints: $130
Moog lower ball joints:$80
QA1 LCA's: $395
Hotchkis Shocks: $475
Hellwig 55905 front bar: $175
Flaming River 16:1 steering box: $610
QA1 tie rod sleeves: $50
Moog tie rods (all): $60
Moog pitman and idler arms: $80
Adjustable PST strut rods:$300
Rear:
Hellwig 6908 rear bar: $180 (this is the Ebody bar I run with my B-body rear axle)
AFCO 20231M springs: $320
AFCO leaf spring sliders: $200
Dr. Diff 1/2" spring offset:$150
Leaf spring perches: $15
Front suspension: 3,105
Rear suspension total: 865
Total: $3,970
So, my parts total is $3K cheaper than just the parts for the RMS alterkation and street lynx. In fact, my parts total is $1k less than just the Alterkation, and I did the whole car. My prices are mostly all Summit racing. Firm Feel, Bergman Autocraft, PST, and SD truck springs (sway bars) were also used. I used the Flaming River box in my comparison because that's what I have, but even if you added the Borgeson from BAC you're only adding $259, and that can be made up elsewhere. Maybe I'll start weighing some of this stuff so I can figure out the weight difference, but I don't care that much. It's lighter than stock, and probably pretty comparable to most of the coilover conversions.
Obviously, that's not the total cost. Brakes aren't included, neither is any of the chassis stiffening or wheels and tires. But that cost is basically the same regardless of which system you use, and the prices for the RMS conversions doesn't include any of that either. And you would still need all of it. And I included all the parts to make everything new, ie, pitman, idler, tie rod ends, ball joints etc, so that everything replaced by the RMS components would also be new on the torsion bar/leaf car. Realistically, you could save A LOT of money by not using tubular UCA's and LCA's, and just using offset UCA bushings (moog 7103) and boxing your stock LCA's and replacing the LCA bushings. Like about $700. And if you kept the stock steering you save $600. Or add a Howe steering quickner to the stock steering and still get a ratio improvement, the 1.5:1 is only $90. Drop the leaf spring sliders and save $200. Another $150 for the 1/2" spring offset. Not necessary, but without a mini-tub it gets you the same tire clearance as you'd get with the 4-link.
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Very good write up. Like I said, it's all in what one wants for their car. Different things for different folks.
Them some nice corner weights.
Also while it uses mustang 2 spindles, the geometry is completely different. These front kits are far more than just mustang 2 fronts
you also forgot to add in your shock costs from the rear. so i figure 400? for dual adjusting.
numbers for a fully loaded GTS kit....4495 with brakes, so subtract 700 in brakes since those will be the same regardless call it 3800, or 1300 less that the RMS.
that brings your difference down to 1300...... total or 700 less for the t bar set up.
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69wacuda
Handling, and a 500ci engine.... All in good time!
Excuse my ignorance, but what are the leaf spring sliders for? What features do they bring to the table?
67autocross
A new iron curtain drawn across the 49th parallel
At one time I pulled a 73 K member with sway bar and power steering out of my 67 Dart and installed a power rack sway bar equipped Alterkation in the car and scaled the car and it was around 75 lbs lighter buts that's going by memory although I do have the numbers somewhere, the 1.16 torsion bars alone must be close to 25 lbs for the pair.
Sometime this summer I will try and weigh a complete front end including torsion bars and a coil front both without brakes and give an exact number.....
Sometime this summer I will try and weigh a complete front end including torsion bars and a coil front both without brakes and give an exact number.....
autoxcuda
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Here's my latest and greatest weights.
A small Odyssey battery and upgrade brakes with aluminum calipers should get me under 3200 lbs.
that with or without driver?Here's my latest and greatest weights.
A small Odyssey battery and upgrade brakes with aluminum calipers should get me under 3200 lbs.
I did NOT forget my shocks for the rear, $475 was my total cost for all 4 Hotchkis non-adjustable shocks. It looks like the price has gone up $57 since I bought mine, they're $527 from Summit now, but you can take that 400 right back. With the extra $57 you're at $1643 for everything or $1,043 cheaper for just the front. That will buy you a couple of extra torsion bars if you like to switch wheel rates.
As far as the MII geometry, yes the coilover conversions use different geometry than a MII. But they also use the same upper suspension points for the UCA's as the torsion bar system. Keep the track width the same and you've seriously limited the differences in geometry that are possible, making the differences between the two more like just the springs. Obviously there are differences, but retaining the upper suspension points makes them more the same than different. Hotchkis didn't even keep the same upper mounting points for their E-body UCA's, they moved the forward mount. Now, that's because E-body's had more anti-dive built in than A's, but it goes to show how little you can do without moving the suspension points.
Very nice! Not a horrible split for an old musclecar. Is your battery in the trunk yet?
***Edit***
Looks like the price on the Hotchkis non-adjustables went up, new numbers added.
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ah ok, didn't realize that was for all 4. My bad
autoxcuda
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Without. Car still has heavy 11.75 disks, heavy console, heater box, stock location wet cell battery, stock cast iron power steering pump. Upgrades I'm ready to do in the near future that should shed a few pounds in those specific areas.
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69wacuda
Handling, and a 500ci engine.... All in good time!
Feedback on my build plan? I have rolled it out in stages due to budget concerns. Stage 3 is as such because I will have to purchase wheels and tires when I upgrade to the BBP. Im hoping for feedback on the products not so much the rollout of the different stages. Im hoping to roll with 17x8 or even 18x8/9s if I can. Will see if i have the back spacing for that. If you have had personal experience good or bad with any of these products please make some comments. Thanks y'all.
67autocross
A new iron curtain drawn across the 49th parallel
I would say you are on the right track, by now the formula for a good stock suspension rebuild is pretty much figured out. You may get a few opinions on sway bar brands and torsion bar size but nothing earth shattering one way or another.
If I was on a tight budget I would do the PST 1.03” torsion bars and take a hard look at their g-max sway bar kits as well as shocks, I used their products on and off and have always had good luck with them, plus they give I believe a 10% discount to members.
Also like most projects don’t keep track of the costs….it will be way more by the end.
If I was on a tight budget I would do the PST 1.03” torsion bars and take a hard look at their g-max sway bar kits as well as shocks, I used their products on and off and have always had good luck with them, plus they give I believe a 10% discount to members.
Also like most projects don’t keep track of the costs….it will be way more by the end.
autoxcuda
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Do the steering gear box before the aftermarket LCA's. More bang for your buck on the box.
Substitute Helwig hollow sway bar and rear adjustable.
Both those will pay for the box. Looking at your overall picture, I don't think you'll get much benefit with the low friction qa1 UBJ's over moog k727's.
Why the Calvert's with the Hotchkis leafs?
Is your car already painted?
With some fender lip rolling/bending 275/40/17 front and rear will work with right backs pacing. 275/35/18 too.
69wacuda
Handling, and a 500ci engine.... All in good time!
The Calvert sliders are apparently have the proper angle built in compared to the afco sliders. This is supposed to help with leaf spring geometry and help it function more as it should.
The car is painted already so if I can get by without messing with the body that would be great but trimming the fender lip a little bit doesn't bother me to much, because I did the original body work anyway so.
The car is painted already so if I can get by without messing with the body that would be great but trimming the fender lip a little bit doesn't bother me to much, because I did the original body work anyway so.
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