Rebuilt 318 Refuses to Start

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I think I cleared out the carb when I pulled it, but I can't say for sure. I'll take a gander at it today. I suppose it won't hurt to throw some oil down in the cylinders as well. Should I attempt to start it at TDC on the harmonic balancer, or do I want to advance it before I try starting it? Also, is it normal for the gas mist to come out of the carb while cranking?
It's not normal for a mist of gas to come out of the carb. Sounds like a timing issue. Check out the info below for setting your initial timing. With the distributor removed and your #1 cylinder at TDC, the distributor drive slot should be orientated as shown below. As to your question on the timing cover marks, looking down on the cover from the front of the engine, left of 0 is BTDC (advanced), right of 0 is ATDC (retarded).

Reading your timing marks...
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Setting initial timing...
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I installed the timing chain dot to dot and spun it by hand once to ensure they'd still match up.

This is a red flag to me. How did you install the timing chain? Did you degree it? (I hope so.....)

Please describe your build. Adjustable rockers? Solid cam or hydro? Block or head milled? Did you measure the push rod length?
 
I didn't degree the cam. I never have. I was taught that degreeing a cam is just to ensure that the specs were what the advertiser said they are. I installed the cam and lined it up with the crank gear dot to dot. I've never had a problem with it before.

Build:
Worked magnum heads with stock 1.6 stamped rockers
New pushrods (yes, I measured them)
New springs
.3 over
Big Hyd. Roller cam + lifters
Stock Crank
RPM Air gap intake
Holley 650 double pumper carb
MSD Ignition
Block is milled. Heads might be slightly milled too, I don't remember

Also, going off of what Swinger posted above, my distributor rotor is NOT pointed at #1. The oil pump shaft doesn't sit in it correctly, and it's a PITA to try to re-situate it. So wherever the rotor sits, I just put the #1 plug there and continue the firing order around. That should work just fine, shouldn't it?
 
I didn't degree the cam. I never have. I was taught that degreeing a cam is just to ensure that the specs were what the advertiser said they are. I installed the cam and lined it up with the crank gear dot to dot. I've never had a problem with it before.

Build:
Worked magnum heads with stock 1.6 stamped rockers
New pushrods (yes, I measured them)
New springs
.3 over
Big Hyd. Roller cam + lifters
Stock Crank
RPM Air gap intake
Holley 650 double pumper carb
MSD Ignition
Block is milled. Heads might be slightly milled too, I don't remember

Also, going off of what Swinger posted above, my distributor rotor is NOT pointed at #1. The oil pump shaft doesn't sit in it correctly, and it's a PITA to try to re-situate it. So wherever the rotor sits, I just put the #1 plug there and continue the firing order around. That should work just fine, shouldn't it?

Thank you for adding some clarity. You should always degree a cam, there are far too many datums that can be off to change your crank to cam timing, but that's a different topic.

Yes what you did can be done as long as #1 is at TDC.
 
I think I cleared out the carb when I pulled it, but I can't say for sure. I'll take a gander at it today. I suppose it won't hurt to throw some oil down in the cylinders as well. Should I attempt to start it at TDC on the harmonic balancer, or do I want to advance it before I try starting it? Also, is it normal for the gas mist to come out of the carb while cranking?
I'd sure put at least 5-10 degrees of advance in, but it should start with 0 ignition advance. To tell the timing: Are looking at where the tooth on the reluctor wheel on the distributor shaft lines up with the small blade of metal in the reluctor itself to tell the timing relative to the damper mark? If not, are you using a timing light?

Mist back up the carb: Sounds possibly like just a lot of fuel in the carb; too much fuel pumped in, or the carb gummed up? Or, if it is pushing back up with any speed, it can be a valve timing or valve closure issue. What type of lifters? If hydraulics, did you pump up the lifters with oil? If so, this could be hanging the valves opens. The easy way you would know this is with a compression test. IMHO, you need to do that and stop messing around not knowing and borrow a compression gauge; guessing from the air wooshing out of the plug hole won't really tell you much anything except that the rods are connected....

If the valves are not hanging open, then the cam timing could be off. Again a compression test is the first easy way to check to see if it is waaay off. Then pull a valve cover and rotate the crank past the TDC timing mark on the damper. Either the #1 or #6 cylinder intake and exhaust valves should be about equally open with the intake opening and the exhaust closing as it moves past TDC. This is a rough check to see if things are way off or close.

You are right about degreeing the cam but if this cam is new, or the chain is new, then you could indeed have wrongly machined parts. Degreeing the cam is also all about getting the cam timing spot on; small errors in parts machining can add up to throw it off several degrees; 2 degrees is gonna show up on the track.

And sorry... .DON'T put in a 1/2 cup of fuel down the carb if that is what you mean. (I think someone was pulling your leg...) It'll fire off a teaspoon full if things are right.
 
Also, going off of what Swinger posted above, my distributor rotor is NOT pointed at #1. The oil pump shaft doesn't sit in it correctly, and it's a PITA to try to re-situate it. So wherever the rotor sits, I just put the #1 plug there and continue the firing order around. That should work just fine, shouldn't it?
When you get to TDC and the reluctor tooth is lined up with the blade in the reluctor (assuming you have the Mopar ignition), pull the cap and see if the rotor is pointing exactly at a distributor cover tower, and it is pointing between towers. If not, then you can have crossfire and other spark issues. This is one problem that can come up whenever the distributor is off a standard location.
 
you said MSD ignition, but didn't specify if that is the control box, or distributor or both. The pic, above, showing the quill shafts slot orientation, is for an earlier LA. engine. And now you tell us it's a Magnum small block. They are different. For some reason, the orientation is different for the Magnum distributor. But we don't know what dist. you're using.
I think I'd first pull all the plugs, and check each cylinder for compression with a compression tester gauge. This will give you an opportunity to either replace the plugs, or totally clean them with brake cleaner, and compressed air, because you just now disclosed you heavily flooded the engine, first. For some reason I don't fully understand, heavily flooded plugs never are quite the same. The fact that the block, and maybe the heads are cut, coupled with the "big" hydraulic roller cam(not degreed in), begins to send up red flags in my head. So it would go a long way, in my mind, to know what kind of cylinder pressures we are dealing with. The next thing I would confirm is TDC. For me, a screwdriver in the spark plug hole is not accurate enough. Beg, borrow, or rent a 3 or 4in travel dial indicator, and make absolutely certain the mark on the damper is really TDC. The other reasons I'm a little sceptical is 1) It won't even start with starting fluid, 2) at some point, Ma Mopar has had timing covers with different timing marks, and at one point dropped all timing marks off of the cover and dampener. Had you degreed in the cam, the first step is to confirm the TDC marks, which would clear up any questions later on.
 
how much was milled off of block and heads? If enough is taken off, or if taken off improperly, you can introduce mismatch on the intake to head surface, possibly even vacuum leaks.
 
Rusty,
I have a full MSD ignition. Box + distributor. You are correct in that it is a magnum block. The flooding is questionable though and is something that we can't really pin down. The carburetor was full of gas, but when I pulled the #1 plug, it was bone dry. None of the plugs have been wet throughout this process, ever. I just got finished cleaning the plugs off just to be sure now. They had a little carbon on them from before when I was driving the vehicle. This engine has timing marks on the timing cover. The block was decked for sure, and I think I had the heads milled just a tad to clean them up. All of this work has been done correctly by a reputable machine shop and was installed previous without any problems.
 
I know you said it has spark, but this is a long shot, is there a chance your line to a tachometer is grounded out somewhere?

Have you tried the MSD tests to verify that the distributor module is firing the msd box as you spin the distributor? This can be done when the distributor is out.. Detailed in the MSD instructions.

Hope it helps and good luck !!
 
I've never had much luck with an msd module. I remember swapping over to msd module from an HEI setup and had to really twist the distributor to get the timing back to normal. Eyeballing x degrees of advance I don't think will work. It would be simple to slave in a mopar or HEI unit, double and triple checking that you have 12v+ to the coil + while in run and crank.

The msd box in my sig didn't even work correctly for me...
 
  • you did say it wouldn't fire on starting fluid. So that means compression and/or timing. I stI'll stand on previous comments, but humor me this: Like nm9... said, Roll engine over, in normal clockwise rotation( viewed from front) until the mark you "think" is TDC on dampenet is APPROACHING TDC on cover, stop about 8 to 10 degrees on timing cover BEFORE it reaches zero. Make sure both #1 rockers are on base circle of cam. Pop dist. cap off and, if necessary, rotate dist. body AGAINST normal rotor rotation(normal rotation is CW, so you rotate the dist body CCW) until the reluctor meets the pickup(Mopar electronic), or whatever triggers the MSD dist. Snug up the dist hold down enough so it can't accidentally turn, then place cap on body noting where the rotor is pointing, that should be #1 terminal on the cap. If it isn't pointing directly at the terminal, you may have to pull the dist. and using a bigass screwdriver rotate the dist drive shaft a tooth(it's really not that hard to do). then reinstall dist and repeat lining up trigger mechanism and rotor sequence. Do this until you're satisfied it's correct.
 
I didn't degree the cam. I never have. I was taught that degreeing a cam is just to ensure that the specs were what the advertiser said they are. I installed the cam and lined it up with the crank gear dot to dot. I've never had a problem with it before.

You lined up the crank and cam gear dot to dot, where was the #1 cylinder when you did this?
 
This thing is dot to dot people...it should run and isn't out of time valve wise. It only gets weird when you have multiple choices to advance, retard, or zero the chain gears. Those dots need to be the right dots. I have royally messed that up before. That's why I always take a pic before the cover goes on. If he has a basic timing chain, the argument is over, he's got dot to dot.
 
You need to be on the compression stroke. Pull #1 plug and rotate it till compression pushes air out. Turn to TDC and line up the rotor with the #1 tower on the distributor cap. Lightly snug the distributor clamp down. Once it starts, you will have to adjust the timing. Never pour gas to start an engine. If you build an engine right it should start within a couple turns.
 
to the o p if you weren't confused when you started this post I bet you are now lol good luck over and out .
 
I'll just say, if you have air/fuel mixture, compression, and spark, it will run IF it's in time, and that included firing order. Start here......

Literally start here..... How much cranking compression you got? And then how much fire you got.... Desperate times call for desperate measures lol.... Take that lightheartedly but if you have MSD ignition that thing should be trying to weld with a 3/8" gap to a ground... If you have those 2 variable it comes down to fuel and that's just a mist of Starter Fluid just to make it fire off and then you know it is a fuel issue.

The next logical step is timing and there is a great illustration for you in this thread. At 180 out on the dizzy you should have lost some nose hairs if you were leaning over the carb and you have fuel,fire, compression....

Just systematically eliminate what you know is in working order and it will fire.... Look at your plugs also to make sure something is not closing the gap and smell for fuel.

JW
 
Keep in mind your washing the oil you coated the cylinders with when gas goes into it but it doesn't start to sling it onto the cylinders.Be sparing on the gas. If it's right it doesn't take but a spoonful of gas to bust it off.
If you stabbed the distributor by the dots being lined up on crank/cam sprocket your 180 degs out.
 
A compression test will let you know if the cam and crank are timed right. If you plugs are dry you have nothing to ignite! Take a few plugs out, dip them in gas reinstall them and try and start it. If it attempts to fire? Your fuel is not making it into the cylinders.
 
As Kim said above. When you install the gears dot to dot, that is number six. When the cam is at 12 o'clock and the crank is at 12 o'clock that is number one. You may just need to rotate the distributor 180 degrees.
 
Just rotate the distributor 180 and see what happens. You have nothing to lose and it takes 5 minutes.
 
Rusty,
I have a full MSD ignition. Box + distributor. You are correct in that it is a magnum block. The flooding is questionable though and is something that we can't really pin down. The carburetor was full of gas, but when I pulled the #1 plug, it was bone dry. None of the plugs have been wet throughout this process, ever. I just got finished cleaning the plugs off just to be sure now. They had a little carbon on them from before when I was driving the vehicle. This engine has timing marks on the timing cover. The block was decked for sure, and I think I had the heads milled just a tad to clean them up. All of this work has been done correctly by a reputable machine shop and was installed previous without any problems.
You've got fuel in the intake & used starter fluid, the plugs are dry, and mist kicking up & out. Just a stupid question, but is it possible the exhaust is plugged...................?
Rodentia have a way of working quickly & quietly........................
 
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