RFP for the Engine Build for the Missile

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blue missile

blue missile

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OK guys I’ve pretty much sorted out my front suspension issues, so it’s time to spec and order the motor.
What I have planned to this point was a 416 stroker with the following:
[FONT=&quot]INDUCTION[/FONT]​
[FONT=&quot]-1000cfm/4x80lb MSD Atomic TBI[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]-W2 dual-plane intake manifold with milled center divider, ported and[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] gasket matched, bottom coated w/ thermal barrier coating. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Additional water plumbed from heads.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]HEADS[/FONT]​
[FONT=&quot]-Shady Dell Stage Four Prepped- Indy 360-2 aluminum heads w/2.10” intake valves & 1.625” exhaust valves. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] Both valve faces and combustion chambers thermal barrier coated.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]valve guides to be coated with Tech Lines’-WSX lubricant[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]-1.6:1-ratio roller rockers. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]-Chromed banana grooved rocker shafts (DFL coated)[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]-High lift (.620”) springs/retainers & 7deg.Locks (Hughes eng)[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]-Chrome/molly pushrods[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]-Cast aluminum valve covers[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]BLOCK[/FONT]​
[FONT=&quot]-340 Mopar R3 block with basic prep and the following work added:[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] bored .030” over, upper end crossover oiling modification as per Mopar Performance Publ.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]-Comp-cams XE-285HL –285/297 Adv.-- @.05-241/247----.581”/.581” lift (w/ 6:1 rocker)(lobes DFL coated)[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]-6.123” H-beam billet 4340 connecting rods with ARP bolts[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]-Forged 4” stroker crank internally balanced[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]-Diamond racing forged pistons #51411 10.74:1-SCR/8.38:1-DCR (63cc chambers) stroker pistons- piston tops coated with thermal barrier coating [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]-Total Seal’s Top gapless ring set. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]-Full groove main bearings. All bearings to be coated with Tech Line’s baked-on dry film lubricant. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]-Melling high volume oil pump [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]-ARP head and mains stud kits[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]-Rhoads variable hydraulic lifters (DFL coated)[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]-Gear Drive[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]-Milodon Road Race oil pan with appropriate pick-up[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]-Milodon windage tray[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]-High volume water pump[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]I would do all the coating prior to delivering the parts.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Now that that’s said here is the computer graph for the build. I would like to bring the peak power points down say 1500 rpm. I have been watching the 430 build on this forum and am open to other combos. I need a 600+hp/550ftlb power plant for the missile. The design goal is a small block with lots of torque down low for the Silverstate classic and other road races.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Please PM me with the price, the specs you can list here.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Thanks
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Andrew
[/FONT]


[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]
 

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A couple of other things, This is a 92octane build, therefore the Dynamic Compression Ratio should be between 7.5:1-8.5:1. Figure red line at 7500rpm.
Andrew
 
blue missile said:
OK guys I’ve pretty much sorted out my front suspension issues, so it’s time to spec and order the motor.
What I have planned to this point was a 416 stroker with the following:

[FONT=&quot]INDUCTION[/FONT]​


[FONT=&quot]-1000cfm/4x80lb MSD Atomic TBI[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]-W2 dual-plane intake manifold with milled center divider, ported and[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]gasket matched, bottom coated w/ thermal barrier coating. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Additional water plumbed from heads.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]HEADS[/FONT]​


[FONT=&quot]-Shady Dell Stage Four Prepped- Indy 360-2 aluminum heads w/2.10” intake valves & 1.625” exhaust valves. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Both valve faces and combustion chambers thermal barrier coated.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]valve guides to be coated with Tech Lines’-WSX lubricant[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]-1.6:1-ratio roller rockers. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]-Chromed banana grooved rocker shafts (DFL coated)[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]-High lift (.620”) springs/retainers & 7deg.Locks (Hughes eng)[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]-Chrome/molly pushrods[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]-Cast aluminum valve covers[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]BLOCK[/FONT]​


[FONT=&quot]-340 Mopar R3 block with basic prep and the following work added:[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]bored .030” over, upper end crossover oiling modification as per Mopar Performance Publ.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]-Comp-cams XE-285HL –285/297 Adv.-- @.05-241/247----.581”/.581” lift (w/ 6:1 rocker)(lobes DFL coated)[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]-6.123” H-beam billet 4340 connecting rods with ARP bolts[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]-Forged 4” stroker crank internally balanced[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]-Diamond racing forged pistons #51411 10.74:1-SCR/8.38:1-DCR (63cc chambers) stroker pistons- piston tops coated with thermal barrier coating [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]-Total Seal’s Top gapless ring set. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]-Full groove main bearings. All bearings to be coated with Tech Line’s baked-on dry film lubricant. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]-Melling high volume oil pump [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]-ARP head and mains stud kits[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]-Rhoads variable hydraulic lifters (DFL coated)[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]-Gear Drive[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]-Milodon Road Race oil pan with appropriate pick-up[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]-Milodon windage tray[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]-High volume water pump[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]I would do all the coating prior to delivering the parts.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Now that that’s said here is the computer graph for the build. I would like to bring the peak power points down say 1500 rpm. I have been watching the 430 build on this forum and am open to other combos. I need a 600+hp/550ftlb power plant for the missile. The design goal is a small block with lots of torque down low for the Silverstate classic and other road races.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Please PM me with the price, the specs you can list here.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Thanks [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Andrew[/FONT]
Click to expand...


For me the glaring mismatch on this is the cam. I don't know your reasons for choosing a hydraulic flat tappet cam but you will not see 600hp or 7500rpm with a 285HL. I'd also question the choice of intake at this level. Its an ultra low rise piece and not best suited to making really good power.
 
no offence but I made the same power, with an eddy head and alot less money.

The roller in my engine may be the equalizer between the heads you have and the cam I have... I really dont know for sure.

BPE also has a 4.250 stroke crank - that R block will handle it - the indy heads will handle it and it will make well into the 700 hp range if I built it - put a friggin roller cam in that ***** and let it eat!
You say you want the power lower? well then you need to look into adding stroke - the longer the stroke the lower the power comes in at - the 4.250 was an option for me but i chose not to because of the eddy head - you have no such limitations and could potentially lower your powerband about 500 rpm at least.
 
You could always go with a gen 3 Hemi with a factory style fuel injection throw a super charger on it (or twin turbos if you prefer) and make closer to a 800+ HP (Ive heard there is now a kit to make 1000hp but I haven't checked). If displacement is you thing why not get the 6.4l or the 6.1/5.7 Hemi. Just a thought.
 
As mentioned - excellent heads, wrong intake, wrong cam (by a long shot). If you want 600hp, you have to get the air in and out. Look at the jump in DJV's 430 with the right heads and camshaft. And you have a much better (IMO) set of heads. With a mild solid roller you could sail past 600hp and be really nice at any rpm you wanted.
 
First of all thanks for all of the responses.
Over the past few years I have been told by others on this site that the simulation program I am using is fairly accurate, so I am confused by all the comments that the build I outlined wont do what the program says it will. That being said I put this thread together to solicit package specs that meet my general needs based on what you can see of my unprofessional design work. Also to get a cost on having that package built.
The use of a dual plane was because of the proven low end torque they produce, where as a single plane is for top end power.
As far as the power band goes , what about lobe separation? where does that come in?
I am still interested in discussing this let me know
Andrew
 
once the intake is "dry" the single plane dual plane no longer applies, or so i am told. never mind, your going tbi not tpi.....
 
Narrow lobe centers tend to have "narrower " peakier ,shorter rpm ranges,than wide lobe centers.They usually make a little more mid- range torque,compared to the same cam,with a wide lobe center.Curious,why a flat tappet hydraulic? Hydraulic roller will give you the ramp speeds you need to make useable torque.If you can run valves,you might consider a solid flat tappet.If you have access to the engine analysis software,plug this cam in. Lunati 404a1 lun.A small solid flat tappet.Specs are: 270 advert int/270 advert exhaust. @ .50:243/243 int and exh.lobe centrrs 110/intake centerline 106.Lift .548/.548,lash.018/.018
 
Thanks again for the help, regarding solids, I don't want to be having to constantly adjust my tappets.I am certainly up to a hyd/roller, but the ones I have already tried don't come close to the power curve the comp one produces. when compared to the comp the lunati is identical @.05 and both have 110 cls. They both have the same lift w/1.6 rockers, the comp has a longer duration suited to the larger diameter of the MoPar lifters. When I tried the comp 275 version, it shot the DCR through the roof. way past 92 octane.
By the way the two traces from the dyno are with dots:shady dell Brocks maxed out, and without Shady dell Indy 360-2 maxed out.
Andrew
 
Good to known,have you checked the Hughes line of hydraulic rollers? I noticed some of there hardware on your list.I went with a Magnum,looked at their grinds,nice stuff.Also check out Brian(0u812), he does a ton of Comp hydraulic rollers,with 1 exception:he is mopar exclusive.He has done a few hyd roller 4.00 arm small blocks. He cam get somthing custom ground from Comp,for about the same price as you mail ordering it.
 
I dont place much faith in the sims. Just my own opinion but until you have the engine assembled and running, you simply won't "know". I do own one, but it's not for playing with possible output.

"The use of a dual plane was because of the proven low end torque they produce, where as a single plane is for top end power"
This is a wicked generalization, and for the level and rpm range you want, total bullshit. A modern single plane, with your EFI choice and properly matched cam, with a 4" stroke, will not suffer for lack of torque, but a single plane will limit rpm potential and peak horsepower. And any hydraulic cam will not support what you want in terms of power or rpm potential.
 
I was just thinking... I run projects and manage facilities nation wide for a world=wide company. When I write an rfp, I don't always fill in every part they will use. It leads to different approaches to a solution among vendors. Perhaps you might want to reach out to some of the builders that advertize here and just give your goals. See what they give you for ideas rather than saying "this is what I'm doing - please validate my approach." just another thought.
 
inkjunkie said:
what is an rfp anyway?
Click to expand...

Request For Proposal

Basically it's a package of documents/prints that numerous entities will give you a cost to build. Usually accompanied with a scope letter explaining the terms of time and progress payments. It allows you to compare multiple bids from different companies to get the same or similar end results
 
I think guys get confused as to how much you will need to adjust Solid Lifter Camshafts. If you use good parts you will actually be surprised at how long you can go before you need to adjust them. When you think it is time you will most likely only have a few of them that are out of spec and not by much at all. Don't let the choice of a solid deter you because of Valve Adjustment, I have found first hand it is not a PITA at all.
 
First of all Im not looking for validation, as those of you who know me will say, that's not what drives this project. I really am up to other approaches, If you said a flux-capicitor would do the trick and you could provide one, we would sit down and talk.
Secondly 12 valve, that was a very concise and easy to understand explanation.
Thanks again guys.
Andrew
 
Post 18, is simple intelligence.Simply want to see you get your bucks worth,you are not gonna get ut with the 285 xl .If you gonna spend cash with Ryan at Shady Dell,ask him.He would tell you,to sell that kind of purchase.Make your money work for you.
 
blue missile said:
First of all Im not looking for validation, as those of you who know me will say, that's not what drives this project. I really am up to other approaches, If you said a flux-capicitor would do the trick and you could provide one, we would sit down and talk.
Secondly 12 valve, that was a very concise and easy to understand explanation.
Thanks again guys.
Andrew
Click to expand...


I wasn't intending to ruffle feathers with my word choice so my apologies. But you're being told by various people (some that have been there) that the parts choices either "may not" or "won't" do what you want within the restrictions given.
For what it's worth here are my changes and why I chose them. If you don't want to accept this flux capacitor it's entirely your choice:
1. Any cam that will enable the rpm window you're looking for will need to be solid tappet. You simply will not get the 285HL to rev to or make power at 7500. Especially against a 1.6 rocker and the associated spring you'll need to run. The sim programs don't take lifter collapse or springs into account because in order to plot a linear curve they simply assume it will keep performing at a certain percentage. Do asearch for dyno plots from real engines and watch the power peak drop at a specific rom - ususally between 5500 and 6K, some might get as high as 6500 with the beehives and 1.5s. But they drop off a cliff because the valve control is lost. in order to chose a cam you have to look at the head flow data and the end result you want. Providing Ryan can get what he says (I have little doubt he can't) then you need to see at what lift the heads flow 300cfm or more. Then cam it to keep the valves open long enough and far enough to feed it in that area. From my limited info those heads are not really moving air until .400, and they don;t see higher than 300cfm until .500. So you will need a solid roller (provides the most area under the lift curve) of at least .650 lift (that opens the valve far enough past .500 after lash to reach the bigger flow numbers), and you'll want the duration @ .050 to be in the 270 range (in order to give the cylinder enough time to use that high flow rate). 600HP and 7500rpm does not come from street cams or street engines. It comes from race cams in race engines. Again - talk to Dave (DJV) and review his threads. Especially the one where he swaps heads and top ends.
Checking your lash will need to be done roughly twice a season and should be checked prior to any race event. It takes about 20 minutes and as long as you have the procedure down and dont overtighten the valve cov ers it costs nothing. It's easier and faster than changing spark plugs with big tube headers in an A body and that will enable you to make a tamer 600hp engine.
2. The dynamic you're looking to run - If you're using a dished piston and a 63cc chamber, you should be running a tight quench distance. With steel rods and a 7500rpm redline and road racing I'd be looking at .040" head to piston clearance. With a tight quench and aluminum heads, plus the associated larger cam you have to run to make the real 600hp level, the dynamic compression can be raised to 8.75:1. I've built more than a few 4" stroke small blocks this way and they run on pump 89 with 10% ethanol with no detonation. With larger cams they run on 87. If you're planning to run pump premium you have lots of room for improvement with the DCR and you don't need to be afraid of it.
3. The intake manifold for a street car is drastically different than an engine that is expected to produce big power naturally aspirated. you're looking for close to 1.5hp per inch. The best dual plane will struggle to make that, if it can at all, and porting is only so good unless they are cutting the top off and then welding it back up because they can reach everywhere. The dual plane simply is not the best intake for your specific need. It's the best compromise intake. Again, for what you want and expect, a compromise may not deliver as good a result (meaning less power as a properly sized single plane. The intake port extends from the back of the valve to the carb butterfly. Great heads can be squelched with a mismatched intake. Big numbers don't come from mismatched parts.
 
Lots of good information here from guys that have first hand experience.

One thing I'd like to re-iterate that MadDart replied about with accuracy is the minconception that you have to constantly adjust a solid lifter cam. Those days are pretty much behind us. I'm sure if you use junk rocker arms and soft pushrods that may be the case but I've found that even with a moderate performance cam and spring pressures as long as you use good parts you will rarely have to adjust the lash. I built a 418 for a buddy a couple yrs. back and used a Cam Motion solid flat tappet cam (264 at .050 @ .610 lift measure at the valve) and he has ran the crap out of it and only adjusted the valves twice and the last time they barely needed any adjustment at all. Unless it's a grocery getter or real low budget build I rarely even consider a hyd. flat tappet anymore. Your just leaving too much on the table with them IMO.

As for the sims programs: If you input everything perfectly there is still room for error because all those programs assume some things you can't adjust. Things like 100% ring seal, cam lobe intensity (I know there is an adjustment on some of those programs but rarely does it really follow your cams lobe profile perfectly and that is an issue with small blocks with their less than perfect lifter to pushrod angle), a perfect tune up and perfect port match with all cylinders flowing the same amount of air just to name a few. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying their not any good, just saying their not near perfect and your results can and probably will vary. I have 2 dyno sim programs that I play with and compare the results and take into consideration things I have learned building engines then make my decision.
 
Guys,
I cant say how much I REALLY appreciate this level of feedback. There are obviously some areas where I have been operating on miss information.
As far as cams go ,what about a hydraulic roller?
Andrew
 
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