Scarebird front disc swap-my experience

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unreformed66

redscamp72
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Portsmouth, OH
Well, the swap is done, and it was an experience to say the least. First the good. The parts that Mark at Scarebird provided were well made and fit perfectly. His directions were pretty good, and once on they worked as advertised and the car finally stops straight and sure. Now the bad...
The first problem was getting the studs out of the old drum/hub assembly. Nobody around here has a knurl swedge cutter anymore, so I had them pressed out. I had bought some Dorman lug studs that are the proper 7/16 X 20 thread that were a little longer than the stock studs and had 2/100ths bigger diameter on the knurled portion of the stud. They literally FELL into the holes instead of pressing or beating in. I don't know whether the problem was poor quality control on the Chinese made Dorman product or the pressing out of the old studs enlarging the holes. Anyway, I bolted the hubs up to the wheels and tack-welded the damn things to make sure they stay put. I had my machine shop press the adapters onto my hubs, they were a very good press fit. I wouldn't have wanted to peck them on with a hammer for fear of messing them up, they're pretty mild steel. Then the rebuilt master cylinder I bought leaked out the piston like a squirt gun when I tried to bench bleed it. I took it back, they tried to get me to take a rebuild kit and do it myself. I was not amused. Seems old Juan in Mexico who supposedly rebuilt the cylinder didn't do a good job on it. Two days later I got a replacement that was evidently rebuilt by Jesus or Manuel, since it didn't leak. Gotta love that cheap Mexican labor. The Caddy hoses and Celebrity calipers and rotors worked just as advertised, I did have to file down the spindle bosses for clearance, but it was only a couple of eighths or so of material that had to be removed, I did it with a big flat file. I had also thought that since I was there anyway I would replace the wheel bearings. I had my choice, bearings made in China or bearings made in Romania. I chose Romanian bearings hoping that old ex-communists make better bearings than current communists. Once it was all bolted on I started to bleed the brakes. Of course I broke a bleeder screw on the right rear wheel cylinder. I called and lo and behold the local discount parts store had one in stock. I ran right down there and picked up my $9.00 Chinese wheel cylinder and took it home. Took off the drum and had a look. Wrong @#$% wheel cylinder. I took the old one off and took it with me when I went back. Turns out that their computer had mixed up the part numbers for the 9 inch brake cylinder and the 10 inch brake cylinder. I have 10 inch brakes on the rear. Once I got it all bolted up and bled out I took it for a test drive and did my 30 slow stops from 30 mph to seat the brakes in. They stopped straight and true, I could even take my hand off the wheel while stopping without pulling to one side. I will admit that I tried to get by without changing the proportioning valve, I wanted to see what difference it would make. I did a panic stop just for fun, and sure enought the rear wheels locked before the fronts and the car wants to get sideways. Looks like I'll be plumbing in an adjustable valve soon. Also, it requires noticably more pedal pressure with the disc brakes than it did with the drum brakes. Not too bad, but definately more. Maybe I'll put power brakes on someday. All in all, for the money I spent I'm pretty pleased with the conversion, and once I get an adjustable valve plumbed in and adjusted it will be better than great. And that, friends and neighbors is my rather long-winded .02.
 
Unreformed, Thanks for posting your install, Lot's of guys here will appreciate the details. I for one am thinking about making this swap too.
 
Dartman, I thought long and hard about doing the swap, I knew I wanted discs, but I didn't know which way I wanted to go. The deciding factors for me were money and the desire to keep my small pattern rallye wheels.
 
I looked in to this swap also for a few reason. You can use your spindles and upper control arms for one. If you have a fresh front suspension that will keep you from having to replace half of it. I was set to go this root when I noticed the instructions say they wont work with plain steel wheels only rallyes.

My back up plan is go big bolt pattern and use the F/J/M body spindle I have been sitting on for 6 years. That means I need new lower ball joints and upper control arms though.

I do have a set of Scarebird rear disc brackets I plan on using though.
 
Dont get it,when there is MaMopar parts available all over the place to do a drum to disc conversion. :-|

.02
 
John, Have you seen what people are asking for used 73-76 a body disc set ups now ? Ive seen control for $200 and complete set ups for $350. Then you have to replace all the bushings , ball joints, bearings, rotors, pads and calipers most of the time. All done you've got $600 in to it. The Scarebird stuff is around $300 for everything.
 
I did my 65 chrysler 300 with the scarebird set up.and bought all the brake parts locally,evering thing new,and did not worry about the cost that much,weather its 500-750$,I wanted to stopfast,straight and quick,and the scare bird system did it for me.So if you think its a good idea to try and stop with old used parts that might work,go for it,but when you need to stop a 4000lbs + car at over 100mph,and the used parts don,t work,think of the new parts,and how quick mine stops,mrmopartech
 
unreformed66, i had a similar problem with the swedge issue but we cut them off on the back side and knocked them thru the front..the new oversize Dorman's pressed right in..
my machine shop turned the spindle before fitting the adapter ring and it just fits
snug( a couple of .001's)
at first, i had the calipers on the side listed (r on r) but found r on l/l on r was correct
 
Johnnydart, one of my main reasons for going with the Scarebird setup was to keep my small pattern rallyes. Have you tried pricing (or even finding) the small pattern Kelsey-Hayes disc setup? And even if you DO find one, rotors and calipers have gotten scarcer than hen's teeth. It just didn't make sense to me to spend all that money on parts that will end up being just cores with new ones rarely available and expensive these days.
Mr. Bill, I noticed right away that the Celebrity calipers would have to be reversed right to left to get the bleeder screw on top, and if I remember right it says that in the directions too, once I finally got around to reading them. I tried to drill my old studs out from the back too, all I did was burn up a couple of drill bits.....maybe I need better bits.
 
AdamR said:
John, Have you seen what people are asking for used 73-76 a body disc set ups now ? Ive seen control for $200 and complete set ups for $350. Then you have to replace all the bushings , ball joints, bearings, rotors, pads and calipers most of the time. All done you've got $600 in to it. The Scarebird stuff is around $300 for everything.
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Yes Adam,
I know the cost of 73-76 disc brakes,and if you pay $600.00 than you would be foolish.If you pay $200.00 for upper control arms than you would foolish.If you are going to take the front end apart,than you are going to want to put in new bushings anyway regardless.73-76 parts are cheap,no way near the $600.00 you are refering to.

Plus you are not tack welding cheap chinese parts.
 
unreformed66 said:
Johnnydart, one of my main reasons for going with the Scarebird setup was to keep my small pattern rallyes. Have you tried pricing (or even finding) the small pattern Kelsey-Hayes disc setup? And even if you DO find one, rotors and calipers have gotten scarcer than hen's teeth. It just didn't make sense to me to spend all that money on parts that will end up being just cores with new ones rarely available and expensive these days.

I installed the kelsey hayes on my 65.I have less than $400.00 in them complete.Yes parts are harder/more expensive than the 73-76,but they are still available.You just have to look.

Believe me I am not trying to say anything bad or start a pissing match over what you have done.I also hope it works out well for you,and am glad that there are alternatives.

I guess I am just kind of a purist,and like putting chrysler parts on my cars when I can. :)

Take care. :thumbup:

Picture 429.jpg
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Johnny Dart said:
Dont get it,when there is MaMopar parts available all over the place to do a drum to disc conversion. :-|

.02
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It's much easier for us in So Cal to find this stuff at Junk Yards or even small time flippers for decent amounts local without shipping. Even the F/M/J spindle donor cars are not easy to find in the rust belt for some people.

The 73-76 Disk A-body swaps are drying up even around here. And Darryl and other full time junkyarders will grab about every set they can find. That's what they do M-F 9-5.

Also when you do those swaps that require upper A-arms you're into paying for new UBJ's and upper bushings and many people have to have a shop screw and press those in, which are additional costs.

And then think of the cost of new/used LBP rims and the unmounting/mounting, valve stem, and balancing costs (~$20/tire)... It can nickle and dime you.
 
In my opinion, If you must have sbp front brakes due to the rallye wheel thing, why not go with 10" drums?They aren't that bad. The K.H. discs are a nightmare, to say the least.(price, available parts etc.) I would save them for a 340 car or an authentic resto. I'm coverting a 70 dart from sbp discs to bbp discs now and will enjoy the benifits of (in the future) of cheap and easily available parts, 1/2" studs, and a better braking system in the long run. I know it costs more initially to do this swap, but to me I, it's worth every penny especially on a driver. I will sell my sbp disc set up to someone in the future to recover some of my costs, I hope. I will also change the rear diff to 8 1/4 bbp also. Btw, my sbp discs are in good shape, but the front end needed rebuilding, so I thought that I would cut to the chase and upgrade now, and I had all the conversion hard parts allready. Around here, they are not hard to find anyway for a good price. I'm also using bbp rallyes, which are easier to come by and cheaper than sbp. Just my 0.02 opinion. :idea1:
 
Well, I HAD 10 inch drums all the way around, and in my opinion they WERE that bad...I got tired of the brake fade coming down the rather large hill that I have to go over regularly and the sharp pull to the right anytime I had to apply the brakes even moderately quickly. I adjusted on those damn things until I was purple in the face, and they still pulled right under moderate braking. Not to mention the car stops MUCH more quickly now. It's really noticable to me. And my drums were in good shape, not worn out or anything. As to finding stock parts in this area, good luck. I don't know of one single A body in a junkyard anywhere around here. There was one guy who kept a lot of old Mopars in his yard, but he died several years ago and they crushed everything and cleaned it up and hauled it away. I know of one yard 70 miles away in West Virginia that has cars going back to the 40's, but it's pretty much picked clean. Other than that, there's just nothing here. I figured when I posted this thread that there would be those who were unhappy that I bolted on something not made by Mother Mopar, but such is life. Not ONE of the high-dollar aftermarket sets contains a single Mopar bolt, and originals are made of that rare element unobtainium in this part of the country. I like my new setup, and that's what matters to me. If you want to do it differently, then that's your choice and more power to you. Wouldn't it be a boring world if we all thought alike??
 
unreformed66, I also was thinking about the conversion because of the newer stuff and I want to stay with the SBP. I have a complete set of the four piston stuff but the rotors are shot and the calipers I am sure need rebuild. I am glad you posted what was involved because it gives me a better idea what it is like. If you want less pedal effort put on a master cylinder with a smaller bore. It will be easier to push but you will have more pedal travel.


Chuck
 
Johnny Dart said:
Dont get it,when there is MaMopar parts available all over the place to do a drum to disc conversion. :-|

.02
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I also dont buy in to the keep it all Mopar thing. Its not like Ma Mopar is casting the calipers and rotors. They are all out sourced from other venders who make them for all different makes.

I believe in building the nicest safest car I can and with 2 children under the age of 5 that sometimes means uses parts based on price. Honestly if I had the money I would be using a kit from SSBC.
 
AdamR said:
I also dont buy in to the keep it all Mopar thing. Its not like Ma Mopar is casting the calipers and rotors. They are all out sourced from other venders who make them for all different makes.
Click to expand...

I agree, after all who made the four piston stuff? Kelsey Hayes not Chrysler.


Chuck
 
lets also congratulate Unreformed on a an accurate and funny (liked the humour) write up. You guys in the US are finding parts scarce! Guess how tricky it is trying to convert from drums to discs here in the UK? I can't even afford the shipping for new drums!!
 
Agree with TimDart on the story.. it is always nice to hear how the job went, and how well (or not) everything worked.

With regards to braking systems, my figuring is like this. Every car I have owned has had adequate brakes. How do I know this? Everytime I pushed the pedal down the tires locked up (well there were SOME instances when this was not the case, but that was thankfully only temporary :) ). To me, this indicates that my brakes were able to overcome the force of the road and the tire, and stop the tire. To get better stopping (to allow more friction before the tire slips) use a stickier tire.

I dont think I need a bigger caliper/rotor if I can lock the rotor between the pads, but I sure want pads that retain the same friction, with no fade, whether hot or cold.

Everything else just needs to be balanced so the weight shift during braking can be controlled, especially to keep the A's little rear from coming around. Pedal adjustments, master cylinder size, all can affect feel, but I dont think they make the car stop faster.

Of course, I am thinking of a nice, shiny aftermarket kit for my Demon :)
 
Timdart, glad you found the writeup informative and entertaining. Just a note though, on this side of the pond we spell it "humor"... lol. I had the opportunity to spend some time in England in 1984 (which seems like a couple of lifetimes ago) and found that English truly IS a foriegn language. I'd love to go again sometime, the Brits I ran into were all pretty much nice helpful people, with the noted exception of the girl and guy who tried to steal my camera from the lawn of the National Portrait Gallery at Trafalgar Square. Fortunately I was young and full of vinegar and they didn't want to fight and just handed it back when I chased them down and got a handfull of the guy's coat.. I've still got that old Minolta and use it regularly.
 
Hi Unreformed, if you were going to get robbed, central London would do it, I lived there for a decade myself. Anyway,there is a really lively and thriving Moparmuscle scene over here. Generally, we do well for parts, but import taxes and shipping can spoil the deal at times. Glad your brakes worked. I've enclosed a pic of my ride, drum brakes n'all!

side monos on.jpg
 
Hey Timdart, it amazes me that there is such a following for American muscle cars in Europe. I saw quite a few when I was over there in 84, although I don't recall seeing any A bodies. I do recall that Lucerne Switzerland was swarming with 66 and 67 Mustangs, I saw several including a silver 67 GT 390 that I took a picture of parked at the side of a street I was walking down. Actually when I was in the UK I was lusting after the E-Type Jags that seemed to be everywhere I looked. I find those to be one of the sexiest cars ever made, even if you do have to work on them constantly. I bet there aren't nearly as many of those on the road today. I would love to come back to London someday, I really enjoyed it (the attempted theft aside). Hey, I even ended up wandering in Soho on Easter Sunday... that was an experience not to be soon forgotten. When I was there the Libyan Embassy was surrounded by the law, and they Libyans blew up a baggage area at Heathrow the morning of my flight home. It happened a couple of hours before I got there, but obviously tensions were still high at the time. The main difference between the United States and European countries is that compared to you we have NO antiquity at all. It amazed me to see buildings that had stood for up to a millinium instead of a couple of hundred years. I'm going to have to get out my slides and bore the kids sometime soon.. lol. I think it's great that the internet allows those of us who share common interests to converse even though we are thousands of miles apart. Makes things a lot more interesting!!
By the way, NICE RIDE!!!
 
Unreformed, thanks for the heads up. You are right about the internet, such a great asset for people like us. Meantime, E type jag prices are for 'gentlemen of wealth' these days! Personally, Id rather spend my cash on US muscle!
Sorry about the thread hijack, guys.
 
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