Service Technicians vs. Auto Mechanics

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b5demon said:
AGREE!! Flat rate time has alot to do with good or decent techs turning into hacks just to try to make time. Warranty flat rate times any more are a joke.
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I'm not sure I agree with that analysis. I think if a man has the larceny in him, it'll come out regardless. I lost my *** for years on some warranty situations, but it always worked out in the wash elsewhere....and honestly. There's enough honest work out there for everybody.
 
Lonewolf3165 said:
I dont care what you call me. Just don't compare what I do to the guy in the coveralls on the commercials who they potray to be a "grease monkey" like Gruber on Andy Griffiths. I don't mind being called a technician or mechanic if you respect what I have to do to be good at it. I can fixt the 50 year old stuff as well as the 2012 models because I have applied myself at my work & rose to the challenges put in front of me. Keeping up w/ new technology instead of fearing it. Learning from mistakes & knowing what my weakness may be & dilligently working to get better in those areas. I have worked mostly in dealerships my carreer, but have worked in independent shops & now own my own shop. The industry has changed from what it was for our fathers. It is way more specialized now than ever. That's also why you have a Service Advisor in the white shirt talk to you & not the technician. And the SA's job isn't easy either! I fix cars from the dealers & other independants who couldn't figure it out or more often then not, were just too lazy to go through the necessary steps to properly diagnose a problem.
It comes down to this: The quality of work you will get doesn't matter if it's from an independant or a dealer, only if the individual who is working on your car that day cares enough & is knowledged enough to do the job right. Flat rate pay systems force time & money to be a major consideration to most technicians(or mechanics) when job quality & customer satasfaction should be 1st priority.

I'm a Factory Trained & ASE Master Auto Technician w/ 30 years exp. & I'm proud of it because I know what it takes to be good!
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Well!!! I've been biting my tongue since this thread started. The fact is that The OP really doesn't seem to respect what we do/used to do for a living like so many people. They have to rely on others so much to repair their items and then start a thread bashing us. The fact is that a Good shop has a variety of talented people. Some are great at Diagnosis by symptom. Some are great Parts changers with amazing little fingers to manipulate the little bolts and clips(That would be me. Lol:glasses7:) Some are amazing at the new fangled OBD systems. The fact is that they are all valuable. I honestly resent the OP a bit for the way seem to look down their nose at us as a whole. JM2C and if I'm wrong for this post, I am sorry but it's just the way it all came across to me. I started driving Truck 4 years ago because I could double my income due to quite low pay for Mechanics here in my neck of the woods. But I'll always consider myself a Mechanic even though technology has moved so far since I was in the game. I also know that I could jump right back in it and be successful because I am a Fixer. Like many of us on this Forum!!! Sorry for the Rant, You may go back to your regularly scheduled program now.
 
StrokerScamp said:
I'm not sure I agree with that analysis. I think if a man has the larceny in him, it'll come out regardless. I lost my *** for years on some warranty situations, but it always worked out in the wash elsewhere....and honestly. There's enough honest work out there for everybody.
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Stroker I agree with you I've been a tech at the same dealer for over 18 years now and have seen it happen time and time again. I would rather loose a couple tenths here and there rather than have the car come back again with issues but not everybody thinks that way.
 
StrokerScamp said:
I'm not sure I agree with that analysis. I think if a man has the larceny in him, it'll come out regardless. I lost my *** for years on some warranty situations, but it always worked out in the wash elsewhere....and honestly. There's enough honest work out there for everybody.
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amen! i feel the same way, i watched the chosen ones get spoon fed all the gravy because they couldn't fix a car... couple guys couldnt even use a multi meter.
 
A good dealer tech can usually beat the warranty flat rate time but not always.

So about 60 ohms is what I should be reading, I first unplug the PCM, that is where one of the termination resistors are and the easiest to get to. The other one is in the cluster module and I don't want to take the dash apart if I don't have to. So PCM disconnected at the OBDII connector I now read 120 ohms so I know the other resistor is good and the wiring inside the car is good. Under the hood at the diagnostic port I now measure my CAN line resistance and read 0.7 ohms. So I know my problem is under the hood as by disconnectiong the PCM I have effectively split the wiring in two.

Reconnect the PCM and go to the next easiest module to disconnect. That is the ABS/ESC module. Unplug it, measure the resistance again and I have 60 ohms. The HECU is shorted internally. End of diagnosis now I get 15 minutes to write up what I found, what readings I got and how and where I got them.

We typically do 6 or 7 cars like this and they all have to be completed in the time allowed plus pass a written test at the end of the class.

I'm not offended by the "stealership" term as I realize you just don't know what goes into running a new car dealership service department or the expense. It typically cost about $1000 to send a tech to training for 2 days and we average about 6 days of training a year. Multiply that by 15 techs and you see where the expense comes from. This isn't even taking into consideration the diagnostic equipment and special tools cost which is also very high.

The factories require that techs are trained to certain levels in order to get paid for those repairs under warranty. Otherwise they charge the claim back and the dealership eats it.

I'm not trying to put anyone down just want to educate you on why the cost is higher at the dealership and the difference between a tech and a mechanic. You get a highly trained individual that knows the product well. Are there bad techs? Sure, but if they can't pass the training classes they don't last long. Are there good mechanics? Sure but their knowledge is usually limited. I've seen good mechanics do a fine job at replacing a timing belt, but because they didn't know one little thing they didn't get the balance shaft in time and the engine vibrated horribly. It looked right though.

Or has anyone ever replaced a timing belt on the Isuzu 3.2 V6? If you don't know how to set that one you will never get it right.

As others have stated earlier, times have changed. I work hard at my job and am constantly learning something everyday. I love what I do and I take pride in my work. I don't rip people off. I live by the golden rule, treat others as you yourself would want to be treated.
 
. Guitar Jones said..

"Or has anyone ever replaced a timing belt on the Isuzu 3.2 V6? If you don't know how to set that one you will never get it right."

Ahh yes, Those are tricky because the cams have a reduction gear on them, so if you are off time you can't simply just spin the gear around to line it up.

I don't know how we got there though...
 
Guitar Jones said:
It's all about knowledge. You don't just pay for the labor to do a job, you also pay for the knowledge.
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X2
Here a quote I saved :
REMEMBER THAT INFORMATION' IS NOT FREE SOME ONE HAD TO PAY FOR IT. YEARS OF EXPERIENCE,SCHOOL, OR TRIAL AND ERROR SOME ONE PUT IN THE MAN HOURS FOR IT SO DON'T GET MAD IF U DON'T GET WHAT U WANT WITH OUT GETTING YOUR OWN HANDS DIRTY FIRST.
 
OwdKasd said:
I am sorry if you felt I don't respect the knowledge and skill. I am not bashing people who know what they are doing. I was ranting on not finding someone that can do the job even though I'm willing to pay for them to do it. I did say that dealerships are expensive for repairs but that wasn't news to anyone on this group. Even though they are expensive, I trust the work will be done and to my satisfaction or I wouldn't be leaving my car with them. They have service records on this car back to when it was driven off the lot new. With no one else to turn to, they are the best equiped to deal with my vehicles issues.

Sorry I stepped on toes. I thought this would be a group who understands loving an older car and needing to find someone to work on it. I was feeling like if the people I talked to didn't have an App for it on their iPhone that they couldn't fix my rough idle lol
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needsaresto said:
LOL,too funny but very true. I guess the real difference is a mechanic is a guy who was trained to think and use his brain to fix problems. A tech apparently doesnt have a brain,just a computor..
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Wow all this is interesting. At the Auto shop I went to in high school the teacher I had told me the exact opposite. A Technician is someone who is trained correctly, and a mechanic is someone who is an uneducated tinkerer. I found that to be a great insult. I do prefer it because I get dirty and greasy and covered in filth when I fix a car. BUT then again, in my opinion it is a signal of changing times. MECHANICs work on MECHANICal things, TECHNicians work on TECHNological things.

After 2 years of Auto Shop I still feel that I did a better job of educating myself by taking apart my Charger, than wasting 2 hours every day 5 days a week for 25 weeks a year...twice.
 
Guitar Jones said:
It's all about knowledge. You don't just pay for the labor to do a job, you also pay for the knowledge.
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100% correct. ...and that's a tough thing to convey to some customers because all they see is the bottom line.
 
Good news! They just called and both the cost and the time was less than expected. If she runs as good as new then I will never complain about the dealership white shirt and ties again!

Just glad to have my girl back home soon!
 
Today's cars are more complicated than cars of the 1990s and those cars are more complicated than those of the 1980s and so on.

Last week a co-worker was asking me what a MAF Sensor was and what does it do because that was what the readout told him the fault was. His car had sputtered and quit running. I explained to him the function of the MAF sensor and why his car quit.

The transmission on my 1994 Toyota Camry V6 XLE went bad. I took it to the independant Toyota shop that I trust and the owner told me to take it to a local independant tranny shop. It was there that I talked to the owner about the transmission and discovered that there were 13 sensors on the car that had the transmission in the loop and that he would check them all first before he could determine if the transmission needed rebuilding. (The discusssion took place next to a 1968 Hemi GTX that was on the rack).

I can trouble shoot the pre-1980s cars fairly well because those cars are what I learned on when I was a "grease monkey".

Now, I take a modern car to a shop or the dealership because I seek the people who have the knowledge and the experience to repair the car correctly. I could learn how to do it myself but that would take a lot of learning time and equipment purchase.

The OP was lamenting that modern auto techs are seeing cars that they can not work on. Seems about right to me since, in my lifetime, cars have gone from carbs, distributors, and points to FI, crank triggers, and coil packs not to mention MAF sensors and fuel pumps in the gas tank.
 
There are probably only three of us in this shop that have worked on a carburetor. Myself and my older son being two of them. And he only knows because I taught him on my race cars. lol
 
HAGJewels said:
I am sorry if you felt I don't respect the knowledge and skill. I am not bashing people who know what they are doing. I was ranting on not finding someone that can do the job even though I'm willing to pay for them to do it. I did say that dealerships are expensive for repairs but that wasn't news to anyone on this group. Even though they are expensive, I trust the work will be done and to my satisfaction or I wouldn't be leaving my car with them. They have service records on this car back to when it was driven off the lot new. With no one else to turn to, they are the best equiped to deal with my vehicles issues.

Sorry I stepped on toes. I thought this would be a group who understands loving an older car and needing to find someone to work on it. I was feeling like if the people I talked to didn't have an App for it on their iPhone that they couldn't fix my rough idle lol
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Don't judge the whole group based on Me.:glasses7: But even look at your second sentence above "I am not bashing people who know what they are doing" You're judging people even though you are the one who has to bring it to someone else to get it fixed. This happens in all walks of life but IMO it's always wrong.
 
Guitar Jones said:
Here's an example of what we go through at training.

This is a 2012 Tuscon, it starts and runs, but will not shift out of park, and the motor driven steering is inop. The ABS, EBD, ESC and ETC lights on the dash are on.

You get a DVOM, the GDS (laptop communication tool) and the electrical schematic book to diagnose the vehicle. No screwdrivers, wrenches, or tools of any kind.

First step is to hook up the GDS to the OBDII port and see if there are any codes in any system. The vehicle will not communicate with the GDS at all.

What's your next step?
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Check for power to ECM and BCM, replace bad fuse and continue.
 
cascius said:
70DartSedan said:
MECHANICs work on MECHANICal things, TECHNicians work on TECHNological things.QUOTE]

So you're saying that todays car's aren't technological?
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Guitar Jones said:
cascius said:
I think he's saying that needsaresto has it backwards.
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No, what it is, is that cars are mechanical, computers are technical. It is unfair to say someone who works on modern cars is either one. This gets hard now, to determine where the line between the two, it's fuzzy.

My point is you've never heard of a person say "I'm a 'Computer Mechanic" have you? Not me. I bring this up because cars and computers have been melded together by Detroit.
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A little late to this thread but I'll put in my 2 cents. I really hate that everyone these days is going to the "this onboard computer will tell me the problem" approach when it comes to diagnosing cars. I've been a mechanic in the army for 2 years now and it's the same damn thing in the motorpool. We have a new system called an MSD which is LITERALLY just a panasonic toughbook style laptop that has all the technical manuals loaded onto it like PDFs with a "diagnostic" (also known as search) function. The army spent millions on these things along with time training us how to use them and I can go out there and diagnose a vehicle quicker just going by what I know. Hell the printed technical manuals would be quicker than that damn computer if you got half a head on your shoulders. Fortunately for me one of my sergeants is the "old guy with grease under his nails" and shares my opinion about the 'puters, so whenever we're supposed to do classes on how to use the computers we usually go off an find something to fix the real way.
 
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