Set "total" timing on a stock 318 two-barrel where?

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dibbons

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I used to run 35 degrees total timing in my bracket race small block Mopar as recommended by most race manuals. I was wondering if the total timing suggested for competition at 35 degrees would apply to a stock 1972 318? Don't have a dyno, so what have others found to be the best timing set? Thank you.
 
My 68 318 with nothing more than a 4 barrel, headers and msd distributor likes 15 initial and 34 total running on 91e10 gas. For your 2 barrel and i'm guesing stock single exhaust, try 10 initial and see what it likes
 
35 (initial+slots) is a very close to ideal SB amt & definitely a good number to start with & with a DD 318 you will be fine. I would set the initial with the "vac gauge method" (or 15-20 is fine) then shorten the slots with the FBO $22 plate (by far the best bang for the buck for this) to get 35 total (can capped) then toss the heavy spring with the elongated loop on one end & sub in a mr gasket or MP light spring in its place for a good start & go heavier on either one if it pings up thru the gears on your hottest/driest (most likely to ping) day (any spring combo advances in a linear rate ex for the OE elongated loop one) then plug in the can & adj it to stay under the pinging point in everyday driveing under varying load/RPM conditions (CCW slows its rate). bottom line NO pinging allowed ever but you want to stay fairly close to that line but NEVER over it. if you accell at a lower than WOT rate then plug in the can before the doing spring work/changes.
 
I've always believed that individual engines are all a bit different. Heads, pistons, cam, probably even type of exhaust / headers and maybe header length may have a small role. "Approach carefully" and watch for damage on plug readings

Nowadays, O2 wide band, infra red temp readings, etc make guesswork "less" I also "guess" that common alcoholized "pump" gas is more forgiving

The cam MAY hide obvious audible ping and of course at WOT and high RPM you won't hear it either
 
Thanks for the reminder. I need to check mine after I get back from the Mopar Nats. I think it's probably at about 15 degrees initial and it's pings all over the place.
 
Why are the factory specs for initial timing around TDC +/- 5 degrees and mostly everyone on this forum is setting initial at 10-15 degrees? Did the factory know something we don't?

While we are on the subject of timing, I will mention that I installed a Pertronix Billet Distributor #D141700 about a year ago. The instructions are very complete regarding centrifugal advance and how to customize it. The factory installed springs/limiters allow 5 degrees advance @ 1500 RPM, 10 @ 2000 RPM, 16 @ 2500 RPM, 22 @ 3000 RPM, and then full 24 degrees @ 3500 RPM and above. That is fine and dandy, but there is NOTHING in the instructions (or website) regarding the operation and specifications of the vacuum advance. I sent an e-mail question to them today in which I asked for specific information on the profile of the vacuum advance. I thought is was strange the vacuum advance was not even mentioned anywhere and to the best of my knowledge gas mileage can really be improved with a working vacuum advance.
 
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All I can say is regarding ideal timing as recommended here, been messing with a 78 Magnum my son recently picked up with a 360, unknown lumpy Erson cam, Demon Street Demon 625, duals and unknown compression or supposed aftermarket pistons (likely below 9:1) the initial timing WAS at 10°, the idle speed was cranked up excessively and vacuum gauge at idle was barely @10. After yanking the points! distributor apart we discovered stock springs, a 19°(38°} cam/plate! So it was at 10° initial, the plate added theoretically 38° at when? and then the vacuum added unknown advance. All over and just shitty. So I welded the plate to yield 9°(18°) yanked the heavy spring and added a Mr Gasket 925b, marked the balancer, and set the initial at 16° and adjusted the vacuum to add about 10° all as a baseline based on reading elsewhere and here. 16° initial, 34° total and with 10° vac advance for part throttle. What an improvement, backed the idle down, tweaked the idle screws, got 13 inches, thing cranks instantly, even when hot and recranking after some heat-soak, idle is strong, in park and in drive, sharp throttle response, and a few runs up and down the road revealed no pinging anywhere, so much better and now ready to really dial it in. Read up and apply the knowledge from here and elsewhere. It works.
 
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Why are the factory specs for initial timing around TDC +/- 5 degrees and mostly everyone on this forum is setting initial at 10-15 degrees? Did the factory know something we don't?
Sometimes it was for emissions. Sometimes it was so you could use really cheap gas. Or both.
 
But mostly it sets the T-port sync, so you have a nice smooth transition from idle to part throttle. Too much idle-timing, and a reset to lower the rpm, tends to dry up the transfers and that causes flatspots and hesitations.
Since most people never floor the car at low rpms, not having the power timing cranked up down there, makes it easier to get it right at later rpms say from 2800 to 3600. Then you can install a big fast-acting Vcan and get the part-throttle power back where it needs to be.
Power timing on almost all typical pushrod engines is more or less the same; 34 to 38 degrees after about 3600rpm.
You are of course free to experiment; just be sure to stay out of detonation..
 
Here is the answer from Pertronix regarding the vacuum advance of their Mopar small block billet distributor:

The vacuum advance is set at 16 degrees total @ the crank and starts @ 7(inHg) and all in @14(inHg).
 
Why are the factory specs for initial timing around TDC +/- 5 degrees and mostly everyone on this forum is setting initial at 10-15 degrees? Did the factory know something we don't?

While we are on the subject of timing, I will mention that I installed a Pertronix Billet Distributor #D141700 about a year ago. The instructions are very complete regarding centrifugal advance and how to customize it. The factory installed springs/limiters allow 5 degrees advance @ 1500 RPM, 10 @ 2000 RPM, 16 @ 2500 RPM, 22 @ 3000 RPM, and then full 24 degrees @ 3500 RPM and above. That is fine and dandy, but there is NOTHING in the instructions (or website) regarding the operation and specifications of the vacuum advance. I sent an e-mail question to them today in which I asked for specific information on the profile of the vacuum advance. I thought is was strange the vacuum advance was not even mentioned anywhere and to the best of my knowledge gas mileage can really be improved with a working vacuum advance.

The TDC or in some cases AFTER was for emissions. If you look up something like a 65 hemi, you get a much different picture. Bear in mind ALL engines 68/ later were emissions laden, starting in 66 in CA. Even the 68 340 stuff had a better curve than the later ones

So far as vacuum, that has it's own problems, because different carbs can provide different amounts of vacuum, and can cause ping at light/ medium throttle settings. And then you have (I believe it's) FBO who insists the ONLY way to run vacuum advance is at full manifold vacuum
 
35 (initial+slots) is a very close to ideal SB amt & definitely a good number to start with & with a DD 318 you will be fine. I would set the initial with the "vac gauge method" (or 15-20 is fine) then shorten the slots with the FBO $22 plate (by far the best bang for the buck for this) to get 35 total (can capped) then toss the heavy spring with the elongated loop on one end & sub in a mr gasket or MP light spring in its place for a good start & go heavier on either one if it pings up thru the gears on your hottest/driest (most likely to ping) day (any spring combo advances in a linear rate ex for the OE elongated loop one) then plug in the can & adj it to stay under the pinging point in everyday driveing under varying load/RPM conditions (CCW slows its rate). bottom line NO pinging allowed ever but you want to stay fairly close to that line but NEVER over it. if you accell at a lower than WOT rate then plug in the can before the doing spring work/changes.
Will the FBO plate work in any distributor that fits a Mopar engine? The reason I ask is because I have a "ready-to-run" distributor and I need to see about fine tuning the timing once I get my car going again.
 
That FBO plate fits the Chrysler OEM distributor (I just dropped one in a 73 factory dist) the original OEM based MP distributor, and likely the chinese copies from Cardone and elsewhere that replicate the OEM design. Fitting other aftermarket distributors with different advance units is highly doubtful, FBO would maybe know?
 
I called FBO and asked him and when I said I have a ready to run distributor with hei he just said "I don't know WHY you guys do that!! Hei is NO BETTER than Mopar or the kits we sell!!" he did say though that if it's a Mopar based shaft and pot I should work. Need to check it out.
 
Wherever it runs the best.

There are general starting points, then the tuning part of the journey begins. Some 318's like 32 some 40 before vacuum advance. So you have to find the sweet spot.
 
Wherever it runs the best.

There are general starting points, then the tuning part of the journey begins. Some 318's like 32 some 40 before vacuum advance. So you have to find the sweet spot.
THIS POST ^^^^^ and not just 318's ! Let class begin by quoting... "Wherever it runs best"...... :D
 
Will the FBO plate work in any distributor that fits a Mopar engine? The reason I ask is because I have a "ready-to-run" distributor and I need to see about fine tuning the timing once I get my car going again.
It sits down on the tips of the (2) 1/4" pins that protrude up thru the slotted cam plate to limit its travel. the center hole is 19/32". it is a round circular thin plate .035" thick/2.5" OD. it has pairs of holes for 10-12-14-16-18 crank degrees of advance.
 
I like The FBO Limiter plate i have three of them in different engines and cars , but sometimes your engine for example only wants 10 degrees of initial Timing, and you want to aim for that 34 total. Well The FBO plate can only give you 18 degrees at minimum so you can only achieve 10 Initial+18 Mech=28 total. You wont be able to achieve this 34 total base line. Wish he sold two versions, another limiter plate for milder motors that has the options of 18 20 22 24. What i had to do is use the fbo plate used a slots that i wouldnt ever need and open it up to get more mechanical.
 
I like The FBO Limiter plate i have three of them in different engines and cars , but sometimes your engine for example only wants 10 degrees of initial Timing, and you want to aim for that 34 total. Well The FBO plate can only give you 18 degrees at minimum so you can only achieve 10 Initial+18 Mech=28 total. You wont be able to achieve this 34 total base line. Wish he sold two versions, another limiter plate for milder motors that has the options of 18 20 22 24. What i had to do is use the fbo plate used a slots that i wouldnt ever need and open it up to get more mechanical.
Arriving a little late to the show. I was able to get 25 degrees of mechanical advance with the FBO plate by filing carefully the 0 degree slots which I would never have used anyway. Pretty much the same as you would do after welding the slots on the cam. My 2 cents.
 
Wherever it runs the best.

There are general starting points, then the tuning part of the journey begins. Some 318's like 32 some 40 before vacuum advance. So you have to find the sweet spot.
Anyone want to offer some words on the experience of an engine liking 32 better than 30? or what ever the total advance is.. And how do YOU personally go about experimenting to find out what the engine likes best.. All on a street car, no drag strip near by..

THIS POST ^^^^^ and not just 318's ! Let class begin by quoting... "Wherever it runs best"...... :D
I'm interested in how others determine what is "best". Initial seems to be fairly easy to determine, but total advance I am much less clear about.. AND It is something I am going to be playing with this summer..
 
@chryslercruiser
Determining the best Power timing for a street car is by testing how long it takes to cover a certain distance, with not enough timing, and then repeating the test with an additional 2 degree. Repeat until the car slows down, then subtract 2 degrees.
This test must be run in just one gear.
The tires must not spin.
At the start of the test, the rpm has to be high enough that that the mechanical advance is all in.
At the end of the test, the rpm must be at or near the cam's Powerpeak but not much higher than 5 to 10 %.

This usually requires the use of Second gear. but
Depending on your rear gears, and cam, this could put you well into speeding territory, so you may have to attempt the test in first gear. but if the tires spin when you lay into it, you'll have to increase your speed until the tires no longer spin.
Say by 3500rpm in First gear, your combo will no longer break the tires loose. and say you have 3.23 gears. Thus 3500 will be about 32 mph.
And say your cam Power peaks at 4500 rpm, and plus 500 gets you ~45 mph.
So run your test from 32 mph to 45 mph, on a flat level no-traffic road. Mark your speed-O at 32 and 45..
Get a helper, with a stop-watch, in the back seat, looking over your shoulder, watching the speedo needle to start/stop the timer. YOU, concentrate on the road.
What yur gonna do is go hammer down at around 30 mph, so that by 32, the carb has settled down, and the engine is in max-effort mode. And when the Speed-o needle hits 45, your helper stops the watch, and you get an ET. write it down. turn around and go back to the starting point.
Add your two degrees and repeat. As you get closer to perfect, you may have to run multiple runs, at the same timing to generate an average ET.

With a V8 car, this test works better in SECOND gear, but the speeds will be excessive. I'm not gonna pay your speeding tickets.
But, you don't have to run all the way to 5500 or whatever. If you have so much power to weight ratio, that it only takes 2 seconds to complete the test in Second, it's gonna get harder with each run, to get an accurate ET. Thus you will be tempted to do the test in Third gear, in the which, wind-resistance will slow the rate of acceleration down, making it easier to be accurate.
If you get pulled over at 5000rpm =112 mph, do not mention my name.

If at any time you hear detonation, STOP the test! I ain't buying you new pistons either.
Be safe.

BTW, my helper was an accelerometer.
Like the GTECH-Pro SS.
Mine, not a Gtech, came out a year or two earlier and required a magnet to be installed on the driveshaft, and a pick-up installed to generate and send the pulses to a small ECU mounted in a tachometer-like housing. By inputting the weight of the vehicle, this device was able to generate a graph of the engine horsepower at each 100/ 200rpm (I forget). From the hard data, I could see the power increase with each timing increase. and when the power plateaued, I discontinued the test.
Then I went back and without increasing the Power Timing; by using a two-stage timing curve, I was able to increase the timing below 3500, and picked up some torque down there, using the same tool and test procedure.
The GTECH does the same, and by using GPS, it does not require the installation of the Driveshaft counter. But it costs a lot more.
No, I do not recall the name of my unit. Wait it just came to me; DYNO-RAD.
 
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