1wild&crazyguy
Banned
If you do proper setup, then it's obvious you dont fall into that category... ;)
So, I have to know........ (solid vs hyd)
- Thread starter dodgetkboy78
- Start date
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If you do proper setup, then it's obvious you dont fall into that category... ;)
Gator
Mopar or No Car
I've had my 340 built in 04' with Hyd lifters ,Mopar 509 purple cam, bored .030, 3500 stall, MSD ignition, etc,...and I have really had no serious issues, just a collasped spring and a push rod going through my rocker arm. For a street machine pushing a little over 400hp I am very happy with my Hyds. I once had a Cheeevy with Solids and a matching cam and was not at all impressed with the noise. Like one poster said I like to hear the sound of my well tuned exhaust so as for Hyds. vs Solids to each its own...
1wild&crazyguy
Banned
Rat Patrol
Well-Known Member
I think 1Wild has a point, all said and done.
There's a lot of cases of guys taking time and $$ to build nice "mild" streeter motors around 300-350 HP ,
- they take care in piston selection,
- they take care in assembling for optimum compression,
- they consider best camshaft profile,
- they weigh up best induction set up,
- they carefully choose the best heads for the job..........
.....then they throw on a set of flat stamped rockers and hyd lifters with no measuring LOL! :tard:
I'd reckon the very least a mild perf engine needs is adjustable rockers, even with a Hyd lifter.
There's a lot of cases of guys taking time and $$ to build nice "mild" streeter motors around 300-350 HP ,
- they take care in piston selection,
- they take care in assembling for optimum compression,
- they consider best camshaft profile,
- they weigh up best induction set up,
- they carefully choose the best heads for the job..........
.....then they throw on a set of flat stamped rockers and hyd lifters with no measuring LOL! :tard:
I'd reckon the very least a mild perf engine needs is adjustable rockers, even with a Hyd lifter.
A very valid point I try my best to convey on a regular basis, but you caint fix stupid. You could take a stock engine, put adjustable rockers on it, get the preload just right and degree that cam in and I bet make close to 50 HP change. But people just don't buy it.
Rat Patrol
Well-Known Member
Good point on a the "stock engine" improvements as well.
port-holio
Well-Known Member
Many people buy hydraulics because of noise, and because they are afraid of lashing valves all the time. First, even with a hydraulic cam, you should still check pushrod height, or use adjustable rockers to get the preload right. Most of the horror stories about frequent lashing on solids are because they can't lash them right or can't adjust the poly locks correctly.
Many people buy solids or special hydraulic lifters because of the media hysteria over pump up. The pump up effect is basically valve float. It is avoided by proper choice of springs, and rigid valvetrain. A solid will just float, but a hydraulic lifter will fill with oil and hang the valves open. Both are bad, but one is worse than the other. Guys regularly wing LS motors to 6500rpm with hydraulic lifters.
Performance wise, solids do have an edge over hydraulics if you can live with the noise. The ramps are steeper, and the lifters can be lighter, and they are cheaper than rollers. Solids can also be tuned slightly by adjusting the lash. (like advancing/retarding, it has a minor effect on power, and won't really fix picking the wrong cam)
Where solid flat tappets come into their own is where the ramp/lift is so big that spring pressure is collapsing the hydraulics and preventing full lift. IMO at this stage it's better to go with a roller design, given that high spring pressures come with the territory.
Modern oils aren't formulated with enough wear additives to keep these cams healthy anymore. The protective zinc additives shorten catalytic converter life, and OEM converters are now required by law to have a 100,000 mile design life.
Solid rollers have the same advantages over hydraulics as in the flat tappet realm. Keep in mind that many solid grinds are crazy lift drag profiles. For a street solid roller it would be wise to select an "endurance" circle track or marine profile for longevity.
Note that to compare cams across the styles, you need to take into account lash & ramps. As a mythical example, a 225@50 hydraulic roller is similar to a 230@50 hydraulic flat tappet, and is similar to a 235@50 solid flat tappet as far as idle quality, rpm band, & attitude go.
Many people buy solids or special hydraulic lifters because of the media hysteria over pump up. The pump up effect is basically valve float. It is avoided by proper choice of springs, and rigid valvetrain. A solid will just float, but a hydraulic lifter will fill with oil and hang the valves open. Both are bad, but one is worse than the other. Guys regularly wing LS motors to 6500rpm with hydraulic lifters.
Performance wise, solids do have an edge over hydraulics if you can live with the noise. The ramps are steeper, and the lifters can be lighter, and they are cheaper than rollers. Solids can also be tuned slightly by adjusting the lash. (like advancing/retarding, it has a minor effect on power, and won't really fix picking the wrong cam)
Where solid flat tappets come into their own is where the ramp/lift is so big that spring pressure is collapsing the hydraulics and preventing full lift. IMO at this stage it's better to go with a roller design, given that high spring pressures come with the territory.
Modern oils aren't formulated with enough wear additives to keep these cams healthy anymore. The protective zinc additives shorten catalytic converter life, and OEM converters are now required by law to have a 100,000 mile design life.
Solid rollers have the same advantages over hydraulics as in the flat tappet realm. Keep in mind that many solid grinds are crazy lift drag profiles. For a street solid roller it would be wise to select an "endurance" circle track or marine profile for longevity.
Note that to compare cams across the styles, you need to take into account lash & ramps. As a mythical example, a 225@50 hydraulic roller is similar to a 230@50 hydraulic flat tappet, and is similar to a 235@50 solid flat tappet as far as idle quality, rpm band, & attitude go.
Hydraulic or solid, low compression or high, stock or full race, a lot of it really boils down to care in assembly.
Puzackly. I would venture to say that most backyard engine builder make more measurements than the factory did.
LJS30
Well-Known Member
So basically we come down to personal preference right?
moper
Well-Known Member
Yes. Owners preference.
1968FormulaS340
Well-Known Member
lol, I bet you are right.
I prefer solids because I feel they are more precise and if I feel the need, I can readjust, and get them perfect again. But I grew up with a 64 Barracuda with a 273.
Sure does. Ethier style cam make great power. It can just boil down to a few basics.
Hyd.'s offer no maintance, quite operation. The Hyd. lifter spread the durations wider so the cam can cover more of an RPM range.
Solids offer higher performance, supeior RPM and power making abilties.
How are you building your engine? The main purpose of the build/car is .......
If your doing a car for enjoyemnt, a 282/282 MP cam in a mild comprsion (9.5-1/10-1 ) ratio with ported heads can nail well over 400 HP
Some guys here went with the MP 360 create short block route and Edelbrock RPM top end package. They run low 12's OOTB with this set up in a well prep'd A body. 11's with light porting and a lightly more agressive "Race Prep'd" car.
440dart123
Well-Known Member
I love the sounds of a solid cam, but when it go's flat and wipes out your crank and rods it makes it a little scary
1wild&crazyguy
Banned
When it go's flat?
More and more people are living in this fear of ''what if''
A cam go's flat due to manufactures flaw about 1 in a 100 times.
But...
Then again, A cam also gos flat due to installer/builder error about 25 out of 100 times.
If those 25 tell you to avoid flat tappets...Tell them to kick rocks.
moper
Well-Known Member
Amen, brother...
Most failures are assembly/builder error, or errors made during install and first starting, or a combination of both. Cam faces are splash fed from the crank unless special lifters are used. If an engine is turned over and over, looking for spark, or fuel, or whatever, the odds of failure are increased dramatically.
This would be why I built my running stand.
Burntorange70
Well-Known Member
Hyd cams have come a long way. They are putting some big ones in motors now a days.
One I know of has over is a roller with 600 lift and running up to 7500RPM, 700+HP.
One I know of has over is a roller with 600 lift and running up to 7500RPM, 700+HP.
dodgetkboy78
EDELBROCK HEADS SUCK!
Boy, what did I start????
As mentioned, after lots of running at high RPM's with these cams on the street, or, in my work truck, these lifters wear, sink, and start clattertickticking. I went through two sets of Lunati lifters in my 268/276 voodoo in 50,000 miles..... My springs are perfect, and I have adjustable rockers set to the gnats ***... I just went to a solid ISKY 218/218, 441/441, 106 sep. Know what? Other than the first 2000RPM, where I couldn't tell the difference, the small port head 390 actually ran better.... The idle was smoother too.. (BTW, the ABUSED LUNATI stick was in real nice shape, terrible oils we have these days and all). But it's not just that. I keep hearing about adjust adjust adjust, I have had many solids, including every day drivers that got over 100K on them, and a lash adjust was a once of year thing.
I think everyone have good points, except for one thing..... from motor tear downs, I believe solid cams last longer than hyd cams. Why? There is no preload on a solid cams, giving the lifter a chance to oil better on the lobe. At leats thats whet I think. :violent1:
Flat cams, are caused by manufacture issues I think, more than oil, break in, and hard starting, especially those chinese made comp cam blanks you all seem to buy.
I love my solids, ticketty or no, they perform better, last forever, get better MPG in real mild form, and sound like a swiss watch.... And it makes me happy....
As mentioned, after lots of running at high RPM's with these cams on the street, or, in my work truck, these lifters wear, sink, and start clattertickticking. I went through two sets of Lunati lifters in my 268/276 voodoo in 50,000 miles..... My springs are perfect, and I have adjustable rockers set to the gnats ***... I just went to a solid ISKY 218/218, 441/441, 106 sep. Know what? Other than the first 2000RPM, where I couldn't tell the difference, the small port head 390 actually ran better.... The idle was smoother too.. (BTW, the ABUSED LUNATI stick was in real nice shape, terrible oils we have these days and all). But it's not just that. I keep hearing about adjust adjust adjust, I have had many solids, including every day drivers that got over 100K on them, and a lash adjust was a once of year thing.
I think everyone have good points, except for one thing..... from motor tear downs, I believe solid cams last longer than hyd cams. Why? There is no preload on a solid cams, giving the lifter a chance to oil better on the lobe. At leats thats whet I think. :violent1:
Flat cams, are caused by manufacture issues I think, more than oil, break in, and hard starting, especially those chinese made comp cam blanks you all seem to buy.
I love my solids, ticketty or no, they perform better, last forever, get better MPG in real mild form, and sound like a swiss watch.... And it makes me happy....
port-holio
Well-Known Member
Were these Lunati's from a few years ago? It seems like there was a rash of flat tappets wiping out regardless of maker, lift, etc.... I heard speculation that many companies were getting cheap lifters from the same places, and they had lots of metalurgical problems. There were also accusations that parts houses were buying brand name cams, and selling them as packages with cheap lifters and springs. I have not heard much since then, curious if it's still going on.....
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