So, I have to know........ (solid vs hyd)

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dodgetkboy78

dodgetkboy78

EDELBROCK HEADS SUCK!
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99.999999999% of you here seem to run hydraulic cams, and 95% seem to run stock style non adjustable rockers.......

Being someone who despises the not so handy invention called a hydraulic lifter, I am curious why most use them?

Is it cost? The fact you don't have to adjust them ever ever never ever? Is it the beautiful sewing machine sound? WHy do you use the stock stamped rockers?

I just have been on the internet for like 8 years now, and have always been baffled as to why people build their performance engines with hyd valvetrain.....

Or am I just strange, because I prefer solid......
 
Well, yeah, you're strange. But I don't think it has anything to do with your valvetrain.

(Sorry, wasn't it a two part question?)
 
I always used to run hydraulic cams. Then one day in about 1975 I put a 340 in my beat up old Landcruiser, and I decided I wanted NO possibility of lifter pump-up when screwing around in the sand and mud.

So I found a guy to grind a little mechanical cam, my instructions were that I wanted "as close as you can get to a 71 340 factory cam."

That thing was NOT real "lopey" but it pulled good and would wind over 7500, if you got a little carried away in the sand.

NOW THAT SAME CAM is in the "interim" engine in the 67

I sure like solid lifters. If I live long enough to build a 'real' engine for the 67, it's gonna have mechanical tappets.
 
well as 273 pointed out a mech cam has no operating rpm limit unlike a hyd, even hyd roller style lifters...

having to adjust them once maybe twice a year to some people is just more work or beyond there comfort range(why i dont know, i did it @ 13 using a 65 chry manual)
 
whats wrong with stock stamped rockers they are super light weight and get the job done on 90% of the street cruisers, i have comp adjustables on my solid cam 360 but know guys who have run deep into the low 11's with a over 500 lift hyd cam and stamped rockers the mopar shaft design is a good one that does not need girdles like other brand X makes
 
The honest answer for me is I'm going back to a hyd. roller because I don't need the added rpm ability of a solid. Todays hydralics are way better at their jobs than their predessors and it allows me to concentrate on other maintanence items in my limited time. Now I can spend more time dicking around with carb jetting (which I never seem to get right).
 
You fingered me. I changed from solid lifters to hydraulic in my '65 273 though kept the adjustable forged rocker arms. However, wrong to assume everyone on FABO wants a performance engine. Not me, though 99% do.

I had to replace the cam and lifters anyway. I switched to hydraulic because of much better cam choice and I didn't want to adjust valves regularly. I have done so way too many times on my 69 Dart 225 and Mercedes diesels, and have much better things to do with my limited time. Also, with hydraulics I could try Rhoades lifters which may increase mileage. I am probably giving up some high rpm performance, which is the 273's forte, but I don't plan to scream in my street driving anyway.
 
In terms of customers... Most want the power, they also don't want the noise. I've had noise compaints from the natural sounds of the lifters, especially with the thin, sound-projecting MP cast covers. I've even had complaints about the clips on the locking header bolts making noise. The other issues are cost and need. But primarilly it's noise that bugs them. I prefer solids myself, more because I can get more torque, a better idle, and better overall performance from them. But like you hear from the Grinch - "Oh the noise, noise NOISE!!!" It's hard to explain it's normal and acceptible, regardless of power level. So that's why I recommend them a lot.
 
Honestly, with today's very advanced hydraulic lifter designs, you'll probably never feel the difference in 99% of street driven engines. Even the difference between hydraulic and solid roller lifters. The hydraulic lifter has come a very long way since its inception. More precise metering systems allow for much higher RPM capabilities than the once standard "5500". Just about the only place you'll see the difference will be on a dyno or a dragstrip......but you WILL see a difference there.
 
Every mfgr switched to hydrolic lifters so there must ahve been a good reason for it.
I haven't done the reseach so I dont know what the reasons were. I dont believe the noise and/or need of periodic adjustment was the main reason though.
Relieving some of the residual pressure on valve springs, stems, and spring retainers, in a standing engine may be part of several reasons combined.
I do look forward to out with solid and in with hydrolic in my street only 273 build. The noise/adjustment issue being my reason regardless what more I might learn through research.
 
Actually, the noise level was indeed the main reason. There are several manufacturers that still use mechanical lifters, not the least of which is Toyota. Few can argue their reputation for longevity.
 
hydraulic lift motor cant rev like a solid lift motor and hydraulic lift is less fynicky. not all hydraulic lift cams need adjustable rocker arms either, it just depends on how wild you get with cam selection. theres nothing wrong with hydraulic lift, their obviously great for the street and can provide good power. In a nutshell it comes down to how many rpm you want to turn and how much matinence you want to do/not do.

regards,
david
 
I believe it has to do with the fact many of us actually like to drive our cars on the street and not via a trailer. Many of us would rather spend time on other aspects of the car then making adjustments internally to the engine. Unless it's a full all out strip car there is nothing wrong with hydraulic.
 
moper said:
In terms of customers... Most want the power, they also don't want the noise. ....................
Click to expand...

I'm sure that's true. IN my case, I WANT the noise. Anybody that's ever heard the clanking bellow of a 425 hp '09 knows what I mean. Anybody who remembers a 30-30 Duntov knows what I mean.




StrokerScamp said:
Honestly, with today's very advanced hydraulic lifter designs, you'll probably never feel the difference in 99% of street driven engines. Even the difference between hydraulic and solid roller lifters. .
Click to expand...

I'm sure that's true, back in the day, my old Sig Ersen ran very well, and it was good (not normally wound to) over 7K in a 440
 
A friend once had a 76 Corvette that the PO had put in a LT-1 engine with solid lifters. We were driving his car and mine (hydraulic) down by the beach one day and a guy actually stopped us and asked which car had the cool sounding solid lifters. yes they make more noise but is it a bad thing? In a hot rod, maybe not.
 
I prefer to hear the exh over the engine. But, I like loud exhausts and I dont have radios in fast cars. But, as I said, the average guy doesn't want to worry about lash, or hear anything but the rumble.
 
People who run hyd cams....
well, it could be that they are not very mechanically inclined, or lazy and dont want to adjust anything hence the use of random stock length push rods and non adjustable 1.45 ratio rockers that rob them of the cam lift they'd hoped for.

It could be that they really have no expectation of valve train stability at higher rpms.

it could be they hate getting oil on their hands

it could be that they are not building anything but stock and expect nothing more than stock power numbers...

it could be that they are un aware of the faster ramp profile that solid cams give.

It is funny when a person builds, has an engine built 'solid cam or hyd' and after all that milling and changing gasket thickness and or heads block mixing...yadda yadda....that they dont at least measure for pre load/push rod length to at least maximize the performance of the cam they chose....
 
I have had both in different engines. For my notch 273 I choose a 5500 max operating range and matched my Lunati hydraulic setup to the Edelbrock/Holly induction. I am keeping the adjustable rockers and stock 904 stall converter with shift kit in the rebuilt 904. But I am building the car for street use exclusively-------------
DR
 
1wild&crazyguy said:
People who run hyd cams....
well, it could be that they are not very mechanically inclined, or lazy and dont want to adjust anything hence the use of random stock length push rods and non adjustable 1.45 ratio rockers that rob them of the cam lift they'd hoped for.

It could be that they really have no expectation of valve train stability at higher rpms.

it could be they hate getting oil on their hands

it could be that they are not building anything but stock and expect nothing more than stock power numbers...

it could be that they are un aware of the faster ramp profile that solid cams give.

It is funny when a person builds, has an engine built 'solid cam or hyd' and after all that milling and changing gasket thickness and or heads block mixing...yadda yadda....that they dont at least measure for pre load/push rod length to at least maximize the performance of the cam they chose....
Click to expand...


I've gone hyd roller this time as I've had lobes wiped on flat tappets due to the oil formulation. Considered solid roller but the valve spring upgrade (from beehives) was going to add $$$ I can spend elsewhere.

Its a 318/390 stroker so 6500rpm is the limit and the cam grind is a hybrid (can be used on solid roller or hydraulic roller). Noise and maintenance don't bother me and it shouldn't be THAT far off a solid roller. Oh, and I'll be getting custom length pushrods...

The exception that proves the rule?
 
MoparAnglia said:
I've gone hyd roller this time as I've had lobes wiped on flat tappets due to the oil formulation. Considered solid roller but the valve spring upgrade (from beehives) was going to add $$$ I can spend elsewhere.

Its a 318/390 stroker so 6500rpm is the limit and the cam grind is a hybrid (can be used on solid roller or hydraulic roller). Noise and maintenance don't bother me and it shouldn't be THAT far off a solid roller. Oh, and I'll be getting custom length pushrods...

The exception that proves the rule?
Click to expand...

X2
Hyd Roller, Smith Bros pushrods, Comp adjustable roller rockers. But, I guess I'm just lazy and don't know what I'm doing......:violent1:
 
I've tried to avoid hydraulics. In the event you run a street/strip gear, you can "buzz" your engine pretty good at highway speed and rpms @>3000 for long periods of time - especially with a big block - take their toll on hydraulic lifters.

Usually, and it didnt' take too long, but the lifters internal clearances opened up and after the car sat for a few days, the lifters would start rattling on start up. I've experienced this with several hyd cams over the years and have since ran only solids.

Just as todays hydraulic profiles have gotten much better over the years, so have the solid grinds. Also, as Chrysler noted, the .904 diameter of our lifters offers a significant advantage over the .860? used by shivvie guys, and the solid grinds exploit it to the max. Also, today's solid grinds hold their valve clearances much better than they did 30 years ago, making them fairly low maintenance.

Plus, I love the sound of solids; gear drives; 8mm blower belts; etc, on my street cars.

Southernman
 
MoparAnglia said:
I've gone hyd roller this time as I've had lobes wiped on flat tappets due to the oil formulation. Considered solid roller but the valve spring upgrade (from beehives) was going to add $$$ I can spend elsewhere.

Its a 318/390 stroker so 6500rpm is the limit and the cam grind is a hybrid (can be used on solid roller or hydraulic roller). Noise and maintenance don't bother me and it shouldn't be THAT far off a solid roller. Oh, and I'll be getting custom length pushrods...

The exception that proves the rule?
Click to expand...

Hey MoparAnglia, I couldn't help but notice your ID, since I've got an Anglia project I'm working on as well. How about putting up a couple pics of yours; here's a couple shots of mine:
 

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Well, I love solid lifters. If I want to build a serious engine hydraulics are out. My experiences with the newer fast rate hydraulics is that the noise approaches that of well adjusted solids, maybe sometimes louder. I've had two experiences where the fast rate (XE)hydraulic cam noise was not acceptable and had to change out cams, (maybe a brand dependent issue as I replaced them with brand L and the lifters were immediately quiet. No lobes went bad either...just plagued with noise.) I've never had an issue with a solid cam (knock on wood)(now my head hurts!) and don't mind a little valve train ticking. Of course, I'm probably pretty old school as I've been adjusting lifters since 1968 and don't mind the job at all. In the past I even put a couple of hydraulic cams in my pickups and after some miles accumulated I got startup lifter clatter. Tried Rhoades lifters with one as a remedy and they even developed startup clatter. Put a Crane solid cam in that truck and ran it 110,000 more miles without an issue. My build plan for a 426 small block is includes a Hughes 4852 solid and most likely every engine I build after that will be solids. You should put up a poll......
 
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