So....What is YOUR opinion on VIN swaps ?

[Lustle]

To me the only reason you would VIN swap is to commit fraud. There is no legitimate reason to swap a VIN.

If you are swapping because you've put a bunch of work into cloning a car into whatever, then you are trying to commit fraud by taking it from "clone" into "real".

If you are swapping a VIN because "oh well the old car couldn't be saved", then you are committing fraud by saying it's the old car when it isn't. And no. There is no such thing as "couldn't be saved". There's only "well it's a lot of work" and you're lazy. Guys pull model A and Ts and whatever else out of the fields all the time with nothing but a frame left (or less) and somehow manage to fix them, I'm pretty sure you can do it too. If you got a great parts car, and a terrible original car. Get to work and use that parts car for what it's for. I've seen lots of cars that guys would call "beyond fixing" come back looking great.

If you are swapping a VIN because there's a lien or some problem with it. You are DEFINITELY committing fraud. You are trying to take a car that can't be registered/insured for A REASON and swapping the VIN knowing you will be circumventing that. Whatever problem there is with the VIN. It CAN be cleared up. Either by inspection. Filing documents. Or whatever. Does it suck? Yes. Is swapping VINs easier? Yes. Does that make you lazy? YES.

Personally short of a few cars I couldn't give a **** what the VIN says. I would rather pay less for a non-H code A body, save my money and drop whatever engine I want in it and not worry about "original this or that". One day I would love to collect and own a few numbers matching rare cars. But for now all they are is more money than I am willing to pay for a car. I'm sure my 72 /6 scamp with a 420+ horse 340 in it is just as much fun to drive as any H code. And at under 10g (canadian) for it running with a built 340/727/8-3/4, with interior in good shape and paint in good shape. With a two inch stack of the work done in the years before I bought it. I'm happy with it.

 

[Mr Gorsky]

There are tens of thousands (maybe even hundreds of thousands) rebodied cars out there. Couple of hundred million cars in the US at a guess....fifty thousand rebodies seems conservative to me.

Doesn't matter what the VIN nazis say or think....rebodies are out there and common sense tells me another 100 get added every month.

No one really cares. The ice caps are melting, California is under water, the polar vortex is imminent and Sweden is under attack!! We all have bigger issues to worry about.

Enjoy your hobby while you can. You'll be dead soon enough.

 

[Kern Dog]

Uhhh, NO.

 

[Alaskan_TA]

[QUOTE="Mr Gorsky, post: 1971571253, member: 41887" No one really cares. [/QUOTE]

I care.

Several others in this thread care also.

So, who wants to buy any VIN swapped car?

No one. ;-)

 

[adriver]

question... how does he know what car is parted out and crushed?

I didn't see where your question was answered. Did I miss it?
And I think it is a good question.


I'm adding some random thoughts below.
I don't mean to impugn the motives of those that run "registries".
I'm sure they have the best intentions.
But perhaps there is a down side to supplying this alleged knowledge to "authorities".
In other words, a little knowledge in the wrong hands can be a dangerous thing.
( Apologies for the cliche. But that is a truism.)
Not to put too fine a point upon it, but is there some protection of one's assets and vested interest? That's only human.
Someone has said this car will be crushed now. I having trouble seeing the win-win if that's true.
This story is a few years old now. It there closure on it yet?
Has the car had the proper burial?
Was there an obituary?

I don't profess to know all the various (state) laws involved.
Lawyers get paid to disagree and usually put disclaimers on legal advice.
For instance if it was a crime in selling the VIN plate, what happened to the person doing it? That would be easy to find.

So legalities aside, let me close with a hypothetical.
What if the ebay items had been sold and put on a four door 74 Dart?
Lest someone say "salvage title" and/or state issued VIN, is that always an option?
And would that be nearly as funny as putting them on a Dart?
Putting them on a Dart might be as funny as the "authorities" trying to figure out what the donor car was.
Think bogus fender tag that's obviously a joke.

VIN swap= bad.
High dollar custom car = good?

 

[Mr Gorsky]

So, who wants to buy any VIN swapped car?

No one. ;-)

Anyone got a nice Demon for sale in the west?

PM me.

 

[Kern Dog]

I cut a taillight panel from a wrecked Demon in a junkyard in 2007. I kept that taillight panel for 3 years looking for a Dart Sport to modify. I needed a 70-72 front group to make it work. I looked casually but never found one reasonably priced. I looked at 4 doors mostly because who wants to scrap a 2 door Dart?
Anyhow...I ended up selling the taillight panel in Spring 2013. The next year I got a call from a guy that wanted to get out of the hobby. He had......TWO Dart Sports.
Son of a beeeeech.

 

[273]

I don't know depends on why I guess.
Saying your restoring a very rusty 340 duster and buy a solid /6 car. So you cut the front half and rear half out of the donor car and floor and roof and install on the 340 car didn't you in around about and very difficult way swap Vins ?

 

[dukeboy440]

I don't know depends on why I guess.
Saying your restoring a very rusty 340 duster and buy a solid /6 car. So you cut the front half and rear half out of the donor car and floor and roof and install on the 340 car didn't you in around about and very difficult way swap Vins ?

In my opinion, no.

First, you're not trying to pass the vehicle off as a different vehicle. You're simply taking the sheet metal from one car to the next.

Second, while you are taking the metal from a donor vehicle, this happens all the time at body shops and is perfectly legal. Why? because you're not taking the vin from the donor car and trying to put it on the project car or vise versa. You're simply taking parts from one vehicle to another while those vehicles retain their original vins.

Third, if you do this correctly, you can keep the vin sections. For example, my trunk gutter on my 74 is replaced with a solid section from a 70 dart, I simply cut out the 70 VIN from the trunk gutter and replaced it with the cut out section from my 74. Why? So that if my car is ever stolen, the VINs match. Sure, i could have left it and probably nobody would ever check it, but I didn't want a vin from a different car on my car. Im sure the same could be done with the front, i forget where that one is at though.

Now, if you were to cut the vin out of the 340 car and put on the slant 6 and try to pass that off as the same 340 car, that would be illegal, same if you'd take the slant 6 vin(for whatever reason) and put on the 340 chassis and try to pass it as the slant 6 can.

Hopefully that makes sense?

 

[273]

All I was trying to say what parts of the original car you have to keep in order to keep the original tag?

If you replace front and rear clips and floor and roof is it still the same car ?

Some people are building a car from 2 or 3 cars plus aftermarket parts.

At some point it becomes vague especially if all the parts come from one donor car.

 

[dukeboy440]

All I was trying to say what parts of the original car you have to keep in order to keep the original tag?

If you replace front and rear clips and floor and roof is it still the same car ?

Some people are building a car from 2 or 3 cars plus aftermarket parts.

At some point it becomes vague especially if all the parts come from one donor car.

I get what you're saying entirely. That's what I was trying to get out above

 

[Pentastarnut]

 

[d5667]

I have pointed out the hypocrisy of telling one person they can do the same thing as another but one is guilty and the other is a hobbyist. Perry if you are a "lawyer" of thirty years then you are the biggest hypocrite of all! You certainly cannot discern act from intent.

 

[jimharvard]

VIN swaps are fake news, they never happen.

No-one has ever done it. All 340 Demons are legit. Every Hemi Cuda is a Hemi Cuda. Anyone who says they've seen or heard of a VIN swap is a liar.

mr. gorsky,

i respectfully disagree that VIN swaps "never happen." a few months ago i ran across a very nicely restored 68 barracuda fastback being sold by a "collector car dealer." included in all the pics of the car they posted was the dash VIN number. the problem was, the VIN number was from a barracuda "coupe" NOT a fastback. i sent emails to this dealer bringing this to their attention. i also posted the information on FABO under a posting "Interesting VIN number on a barracuda". the "restorer" who allegedly built the car sent me an email saying he would "like to talk to me." i never got back to him and i don't know whether the dealer ever sold the car. but i can tell you, VIN swaps DO happen so you have to be careful when buying ANY old car.

here's the car i'm referring to:

 

[diymirage]

mr. gorsky,

i respectfully disagree that VIN swaps "never happen." a few months ago i ran across a very nicely restored 68 barracuda fastback being sold by a "collector car dealer." included in all the pics of the car they posted was the dash VIN number. the problem was, the VIN number was from a barracuda "coupe" NOT a fastback. i sent emails to this dealer bringing this to their attention. i also posted the information on FABO under a posting "Interesting VIN number on a barracuda". the "restorer" who allegedly built the car sent me an email saying he would "like to talk to me." i never got back to him and i don't know whether the dealer ever sold the car. but i can tell you, VIN swaps DO happen so you have to be careful when buying ANY old car.

here's the car i'm referring to:

View attachment 1715022976

I cant gauge his tone when he mentioned he would like to talk to you...but I guess it was more threatening then looking for advise?

 

[jimharvard]

i was recently faced with the issue of "VIN swapping" in a car i'm restoring. i bought a 69 M-Code cuda that had been cut up and altered into a drag car. it is a legitimate "M-Code" car with the correct VIN on the dash and corresponding numbers on the radiator support and rear trunk area water channel under the weather strip. the title reflects all the same numbers as are on the car. so this car is a "real" M-Code car.

HOWEVER, when the "race" guys built this car, they cut up almost the ENTIRE floor pan from the passenger area back to the trunk. they welded in a "custom" frame to accept a 4-link rear suspension. so much of the floor pan was altered that restoring it to OEM will require replacing the ENTIRE floor pan.

American Metal Direct is doing this car and i talked to them about all the work and parts needed to correct the floor pan. the shop manager and i agreed that it would be easier to buy a complete parts car and use large pieces off of that car than to try and weld in each individual reproduction panel that AMD manufactures.

so i found a complete stripped 69 barracuda body shell complete with title it is the blue car below in the pictures. that car came from out west and is almost rust free. a "well-meaning" fellow here on FABO suggested that it would be MUCH easier to just cut the VIN number off of the M-Code car at the radiator shroud and rear trunk drip chanel and put those numbers on the stripped body shell than to take the floor pan out of the body shell and put that in the M-Code car. i thanked the guy for his suggestion but stated that i would NOT consider doing that.

it is going to take much more time and work to take the entire floor pan out of the body shell parts car and put it in the M-Code (yellow) car than to just "swap" the VIN numbers. BUT THAT IS THE LEGAL WAY TO FIX MY CAR!! replacing the entire floor pan in the M-Code car DOES NOT touch the original VIN number in that car - that process is clearly only a parts replacement/repair procedure. AND, if i wanted to, i could save and rebuild the blue parts car shell as the VIN number would not have been touched in that car either!!

i bought the M-Code car to keep. but if i ever wanted to sell it, i would have NO legal issues. i would naturally disclose all the repair work that was put into the car but none of that work rises to a "legal issue." yes, i am "the lawyer with 30 years of practice" as mentioned in one of the above comments. i am interested in FOLLOWING THE LAW when it comes to my cars. obviously, there are a number of FABO readers that do not think that is required. of course, that decision and behavior is up to them.

 

[crackedback]

You can do all the plastic surgery on an old hag you want. No matter if she changes her birthday to a different date on documents, the bones are still the old hag.

 

[jimharvard]

I cant gauge his tone when he mentioned he would like to talk to you...but I guess it was more threatening then looking for advise?

you know... i have no idea what the guy would have said to me. but i did have one telephone conversation with one of the salesman when i called the dealership and i got the impression they knew there was a problem with the car. even if the guy would have been "angry", he really would not have had much of a "legal defense" to rely upon.

 

[Mr Gorsky]

All I was trying to say what parts of the original car you have to keep in order to keep the original tag?........

The only part you need to keep is the VIN tag. It's legal to change EVERY OTHER PART.

The VIN nazi's will tell you that keeping a VIN tag and replacing the bits underneath is a VIN swap. If you complete this "extensive restoration" over an extended period (say, five years)....there would be no objection. The nazi's have an issue with the speed of the restoration. Do it too quick and it's a VIN swap to line your pockets.

mr. gorsky,

i respectfully disagree that VIN swaps "never happen."

That's very good, Jim. Your sarcasm detector is faulty.

i was recently faced with the issue of "VIN swapping" in a car i'm restoring. i bought a 69 M-Code cuda that had been cut up and altered into a drag car. it is a legitimate "M-Code" car with the correct VIN on the dash and corresponding numbers on the radiator support and rear trunk area water channel under the weather strip. the title reflects all the same numbers as are on the car. so this car is a "real" M-Code car....

I have no idea what an M-Code Barracuda is, but I guess it's not a slant six car. If it was a slanty, there would be a whole lot less hand wringing....I'm sure.

You can do all the plastic surgery on an old hag you want. No matter if she changes her birthday to a different date on documents, the bones are still the old hag.

^^^Correct.

ALL these old Mopars are old hags.

Too many people here treat them like supermodels.

 

[jimharvard]

The only part you need to keep is the VIN tag. It's legal to change EVERY OTHER PART.

The VIN nazi's will tell you that keeping a VIN tag and replacing the bits underneath is a VIN swap. If you complete this "extensive restoration" over an extended period (say, five years)....there would be no objection. The nazi's have an issue with the speed of the restoration. Do it too quick and it's a VIN swap to line your pockets.




That's very good, Jim. Your sarcasm detector is faulty.



I have no idea what an M-Code Barracuda is, but I guess it's not a slant six car. If it was a slanty, there would be a whole lot less hand wringing....I'm sure.




^^^Correct.

ALL these old Mopars are old hags.

Too many people here treat them like supermodels.

yes, mr. gorsky... i missed the sarcasm comment... my apologies on that one.

a "M-Code" Barracuda is something like the "Yenko Camaro" of the mopars. it was a special edition car offered one year (1969) by Plymouth. Chrysler sent about 320 383/automatic Barracudas to Hurst Performance in Pennsylvania who pulled out the 383 and installed a 440. only coupes and fastbacks were built and all of them were auto trans. also, none of the cars were fitted with power steering or power brakes. these cars are the most valuable of the second generation barracudas (67-69) with prices ranging from a low of around $35k to a high of $75k.

 

[moparmat2000]

There was a statement made earlier about vin tag rivets. The whole point behind being able to buy the expensive VIN rivets, is to be able to replace a damaged or rusted out dash frame with a good one, and retain the original vin tag, or during a full restoration to remove the vin for a repaint and refresh of rhe dash frame, and then to reaffix the tag. The laws state that the vin can legally be removed if needed for a repair or replacement of parts provided the vin tag is reattached beck to the vehicle it was originally removed from.

It also states that if the vin from one vehicle is transferred to another vehicle that the intent is to fraudulently alter a vehicle. Which is illegal.

You can read that and spin it how you feel, but the law in that matter is quite clear.

 

[273]

There was a statement made earlier about vin tag rivets. The whole point behind being able to buy the expensive VIN rivets, is to be able to replace a damaged or rusted out dash frame with a good one, and retain the original vin tag, or during a full restoration to remove the vin for a repaint and refresh of rhe dadh frame, and then to reaffix the tag. The laws state that the vin can legally be removed if needed for a repair or replacement of parts provided the vin tag is reattached beck to the vehicle it was originally removed from.

It also states that if the vin from one vehicle is transferred to another vehicle that the intent is fraudulently alter a vehicle. Which is illegal.

You can read that and spin it how you feel, but the law in that matter is quite clear.

Yes just put your dash or vin in another car is illegal. But if your car is made up from 2 to 10 different cars which one is the original?

Some cars are pretty ruff.

Say your restoring a car the front is solid and the rear and the roof is rotted. So you rear clip it the now the car is 50/50 two cars but since the dash belongs to the front half its that car ?? But say now it's the opposite your car has a perfect rear and you front clip it from the window post to where the rocker meets the rear door jam. Now which car is it ? And if you bought the front clip from a wrecker and has no dash or ownership or if you got it from a car that's a donor car that does. Does that make a difference??

What parts do you exactly need to go with the vin to be original ?

 

[SGBARRACUDA]

Yes just put your dash or vin in another car is illegal. But if your car is made up from 2 to 10 different cars which one is the original?

Some cars are pretty ruff.

Say your restoring a car the front is solid and the rear and the roof is rotted. So you rear clip it the now the car is 50/50 two cars but since the dash belongs to the front half its that car ?? But say now it's the opposite your car has a perfect rear and you front clip it from the window post to where the rocker meets the rear door jam. Now which car is it ? And if you bought the front clip from a wrecker and has no dash or ownership or if you got it from a car that's a donor car that does. Does that make a difference??

What parts do you exactly need to go with the vin to be original ?

In Fl. it's simple, you take the finished auto to the FHP office, along with the parts receipts and the extra tittles and they will affix a bar code to your car stating it is a rebuilt wreck and you will get a Salvage tittle stating the car is rebuilt.
There is a legal way to restore/rebuild a car. Now you can sit here and what if the subject to death,if your looking for a way to put your head on the pillow and feel all warm and fuzzy inside.

 

[moparmat2000]

Yes just put your dash or vin in another car is illegal. But if your car is made up from 2 to 10 different cars which one is the original?

Some cars are pretty ruff.

Say your restoring a car the front is solid and the rear and the roof is rotted. So you rear clip it the now the car is 50/50 two cars but since the dash belongs to the front half its that car ?? But say now it's the opposite your car has a perfect rear and you front clip it from the window post to where the rocker meets the rear door jam. Now which car is it ? And if you bought the front clip from a wrecker and has no dash or ownership or if you got it from a car that's a donor car that does. Does that make a difference??

What parts do you exactly need to go with the vin to be original ?

Thats called a "cut and shut" clip the rear half onto another shell. Its legal, just go with the car that has the vin affixed to its dash and register that one. The back half is just a parts car.

A buddy of mine pieced 2 fwd caddy coupe devilles together. One was kissed in the back, one kissed in the front. He used the paperwork and title from the one hit in the back since its dash was used and front was left intact.

 

[moparmat2000]

I used pieces out of over 27 different cars in the process of building my barracuda including body parts, however the vin is intact on the original body shell, and thats what i will register it with. The only reason i think somebody would move a vin to another car is to deceive a potential buyer.

I also have a 69 notchback i purchased with the original correct vin tag it was built with. however it was a partially stripped parts car. The dash frame was sold out of it. But the seller gave me the vin that belonged to the car. This was verified by the sequence numbers on the trunk rail and core support. I was able to buy another rallye dash frame and when restored the correct original vin will be attached to this dash frame and reunited with the car it was built with.