So....What is YOUR opinion on VIN swaps ?

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So I'm curious.

Let's say GM Guy buys a GM something or other with body on frame construction. It's toast, but the title is clean.
Said person buys a clean parts vehicle, and replaces the hood. No harm, no foul, right?
What if he replaces the frame? To my knowledge, this isn't an issue. The VIN lives elsewhere on the vehicle, so if I'm wrong, please tell me.

As he progresses, he replaces everything BUT THE VIN PLATE. Does the law specify a certain percentage of the vehicle that must remain original? As mentioned, some vehicles require removing the VIN plate for restoration.

On our Mopars, it's a little different.... unibody cars aren't so cut n dry.
GM full frame cars have the full vin number stamped in at least 2 locations on the frame. That may be a problem. Or maybe not. My brother restored an 87 monte SS. Frame was toast, body was good, we welded in a rust free floorpan from a different year monte. He used a rust free frame from another monte SS he bought for parts. State went by the vin tag on the body. They could care less about frame numbers.

I think the guys here are talking about decieving a potential buyer of a rare optioned muscle car. So for y'all, how much metal under the vin plate needs to be replaced before its called a rebody? The laws do not state a percentage, so that must mean that 100% can be concidered for replacement. What if the only thing salvagable was the roof, some inner structure. Brackets, rad support, and trunk weatherstrip rails? What if you bought all the dynacorn pieces seperate and jigged it together and welded it up in your garage and added in some of the not rusty parts from the original body? Is it still a rebody, i mean there is a percentage of original pieces welded back in. Again the laws do not state a percentage on replacing anything under the vin number, only that you cannot transfer those pieces to another car. A repop body is not concidered a car until its assembled into one.

Again wheres our resident lawyer jim harvard on this one.
 
Ok, this isn't solving anything. It's like--------------
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When we replaced frames at the dealership, we had to remove a VERY distinct portion of the frame and return to HD for verified destruction.

Otherwise someone would buy an aftermarket frame (which can be had minus steering head)and reuse the VIN.

Most customs are built from state assigned VIN Numbers. The motor on the number doesn't mean much, although it used to be used by some makes add a vin back in the day.
I worked at a harley dealer back in 1993, we used to have to do that with the steering head as well. Cut it off and send it back. Then they would send a new replacement frame with an identical vin stamped in it to the old one. This was on collision repair deals. We also did stuff with custom bikes using paughco frames and CCI engines. Both the frames and engines came with numbers and certificates of origin. The state would issue a title which had the frame numbers, and as a custom build
 
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.... Buy a complete new body and affix your 440 6 pak title to it, It's illegal period.....

No it's not.

Drill off VIN tag. Attach VIN tag to "new replacement part" body. If you like, add bits from the donor car that happen to have identifying numbers on them.

Done. And legal.

All we've done here is replace a lot of damaged parts with new parts, Officer Dibbles :).
 
Ok, this isn't solving anything. It's like--------------View attachment 1715024820
Your right. If the law gave a percentage of original metal to be required to be remaining we would then have an answer, but it doesnt. And that omission in the law means that up to 100% of the metal below the vin plate can be concidered for replacement.
Additionally a replacement body is only a part, and not a car.

This is why swapping a vin and identification to a new body is not concidered illegal, but swapping it to a used "car" is, because of the intent to defraud, or because of the possibility of theft or a lein on the altered vehicle. This is deception, and or outright fraud.
 
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No it's not.

Drill off VIN tag. Attach VIN tag to "new replacement part" body. If you like, add bits from the donor car that happen to have identifying numbers on them.

Done. And legal.

All we've done here is replace a lot of damaged parts with new parts, Officer Dibbles :).
OK, I'm done here.. You obviously have all the answers. I'll stick to my way and have FHP inspect it and reassign a tittle on my vehicles.
 
Exactly, and being the dynacorn bodies do NOT come with a vin sequence number on them, and DO come with a certificate of origin they are essentially seen as just a "part" to a car. A major part, but only a part none the less. Technically a dynacorn body is not a car, just a part.

The law is written to prevent taking vins and vin number stampings from one car and fraudulently putting them on another car. You know because of vehicle theft and chop shop issues. A dynacorn body is not concidered a car until everything is installed and it runs. This is like saying an aftermarket motorcycle frame is a motorcycle. Its not!! Its a part with a certificate of origin. Granted a major part, but only a part. Its not concidered a motorcycle until its assembled into one.

Using a dynacorn body and swapping the numbers into one isnt theft or even concidered deceit. Heres a what if for you. What if chrysler decided to manufacture these shells instead of dynacorn? They would also come without vin partials stamped on them and would be essentially a replacement part. So if chrysler themselves stamped out new replacement bodies to replace rusty ones would that then be ok?

Btw if i could hazard a guess, dynacorns next body shells will probably be 68-70 dodge chargers since AMD makes most of the pieces to build one already.

I am kinda curious as to what mr jimharvard thinks on this one since he is a lawyer.

well... first of all, let me say... THIS IS GETTING COMPLICATED... but i will try and simplify some legal concepts.

1. the dynacorn bodies. yes, these bodies appear to be a complete car but they are considered "just a part." the reason why is because the major auto companies WILL NOT allow ANYONE to produce a complete reproduction of a car they built (like a camaro) and sell that "car" as a "camaro." all auto companies have what's called "design patents" on each model produced. they have a legal right to "their design." HOWEVER, all the companies are allowing "reproduction" of "parts" of their vehicles through "licensing agreements." that is what the dynacorn bodies are - a "licensed reproduced part." the licensing agreements have various specifications and quality control requirements that must be met before the original manufacturer will say it is "an approved" and "officially licensed" reproduction part. you can buy ANY dynacorn body and build it. however, if you then want to "title", "insure" or "drive" that vehicle AFTER it is finished, you have to comply with the motor vehicle codes of the VARIOUS STATES.

2. vehicle registration and titles of the various states. as a brief review, i looked at the motor vehicle codes of Virginia, Kentucky, Washington State, Texas and Nevada. they are ALL different in their requirements for how to handle VIN numbers; how a car must be reconstructed; what the car will be classified as - "kit car", "handbuilt or homemade", "assembled and rebuilt vehicle", etc. when it comes to Nevada, THEIR department of motor vehcles website is VERY clear: "contact us first before you begin your project." further, the requirements in nevada for building, restoring, repairing cars are VERY detailed and complex! Texas has a very nice and complete Project Manual that you can download that includes everything Texas wants you to do in restoring/rebuilding car. at this point i have to repeat what i have said many times before here on FABO regarding fixing cars: you need to look at the requirements of the state you are living in and in which you wish to title, license, insure and drive the vehicle that you are rebuilding.

3. VIN numbers, a repaired car, a "re-bodied" car. a number of folks here on FABO understand the laws on why you cannot move an original VIN from one car to another car if your intent is to "deceive" someone over the originality of that VIN so i'm not going to go into that again. however, in reviewing the various motor vehicle state laws, in some states it appears that you can place a VIN from an existing car onto one or more of the categories of cars i cited in paragraph 2. IF you do so under the procedures and direction of the state officials. these same states also provide that to solve the registration problem, you may acquire a NEW VIN number issued by the state for the vehicle you have built/repaired/reconstructed. the entire body of law for how vehicles are registered, licensed and insured is governed by state statues. the concerns over whether a car is "repaired" or "re-bodied" is more confined to the area of civil litigation - law suits. all that is too complicated to go into here but the bottom line rule to avoid these problems is to DISCLOSE EVERYTHING THAT WAS DONE TO A CAR - IN WRITING if you are going to sell the car. by doing so, the seller has provided all the information about the car and is not attempting to "deceive" a buyer. all the state vehicle sections i reviewed broke cars down into major component parts: the body, the frame, the engine and used these major component parts to define when a car was "no longer original." AND, if you are insuring a car that has had so many parts replaced that it could "reasonably" be considered a "re-bodied" car, you should disclose that to the insurance company for valuation purposes. an "original" 71 440 6 pack 4 speed Cuda is worth at least $75k for insurance purposes. that same car if being a "rebuilt re-bodied" car has a value of "maybe" $50k.

IN SUMMARY.... VIN numbers, rebuilding cars, titling cars, selling cars... all these issues should be approached by: "when in doubt, DON'T", "ask the state people first before spending a lot of time and money", "be honest" when selling a car. one can make up and be faced with an unlimited amount of "hypothetical" situations and concerns. car building and collecting is a fun hobby. it doesn't have to become overly complicated. just try to follow your state laws and if you don't know the answer to something, go to the DMV or a State Trouper Barracks. remember, if some state person ever sends you a letter or stops you regarding a concern they have over something you did on or with your car, you are in a much better position if you can say, "well i went to the DMV (State Police) on this date and they told me what i wanted to do was OK" or "i did this exactly the way i was instructed to do by _______ state official."
 
Its all good Roy, you say tomato, i say tomahto. I just read what mr jimharvard had to say on this subject. I mean he is a lawyer and all. It all makes sense.

So basically 2 major things,

1 follow state guidlines for your state, when in doubt, stop and ask questions to the right people then proceed.

2 upon completion disclose all work or replacement parts to potential buyers in writing so they know what they are getting and no civil suits for fraud later. Id recommend 2 copies of that document with the vehicles vin listed on it, and spots for buyers and sellers aignatures on them. Keep your copy in a safe deposit box.

My 67 has been out of the states database so long it will require a vehicle safety inspection as if it was from out of state by a state authorized agency before i can register it.
 
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So I'm curious.

Let's say GM Guy buys a GM something or other with body on frame construction. It's toast, but the title is clean.
Said person buys a clean parts vehicle, and replaces the hood. No harm, no foul, right?
What if he replaces the frame? To my knowledge, this isn't an issue. The VIN lives elsewhere on the vehicle, so if I'm wrong, please tell me.

As he progresses, he replaces everything BUT THE VIN PLATE. Does the law specify a certain percentage of the vehicle that must remain original? As mentioned, some vehicles require removing the VIN plate for restoration.

On our Mopars, it's a little different.... unibody cars aren't so cut n dry.


your answer may depend upon the state you live in. look at the comment i just posted about a number of states i looked at. some of the states do break down vehicles into "major components" body, frame, engine. the aspect of "percent original" has more to do with insurance valuation and required disclosure to a potential buyer. but again, look at your state DMV - i was surprised at just have DIFFERENT the states that i looked at were in regards to the "correct" procedure to handle VIN numbers.
 
Unfortunately, Jim's response is not what the criminal wants to hear! They want to be able to swap the VIN and reap the benefits of the higher valued car! A "new VIN" would be the last thing a deceptive VIN swapper wants!! Heck, very few honest VIN swappers would want to be issued a new VIN, or else that's what everybody would do!! Unfortunately, the money is in the numbers!!!
 
Unfortunately, Jim's response is not what the criminal wants to hear! They want to be able to swap the VIN and reap the benefits of the higher valued car! A "new VIN" would be the last thing a deceptive VIN swapper wants!! Heck, very few honest VIN swappers would want to be issued a new VIN, or else that's what everybody would do!! Unfortunately, the money is in the numbers!!!


Yep.... when i was a kid wrestling and "grab assing" with my two older brothers, my mother used to yell at us and say: "it's all fun and games until someone ends up in the emergency room at 3:00 a.m. in the morning!"
 
Unfortunately, Jim's response is not what the criminal wants to hear! They want to be able to swap the VIN and reap the benefits of the higher valued car! A "new VIN" would be the last thing a deceptive VIN swapper wants!! Heck, very few honest VIN swappers would want to be issued a new VIN, or else that's what everybody would do!! Unfortunately, the money is in the numbers!!!
It's true, in life I think some people want to think what they are doing is OK or legal but as a lot of people discover what they heard or believed was legal isn't! Sometimes they find out when they are arrested or sued that maybe they didn't know everything! The only thing I suggest and have been trying to make a point of is, "Don't assume anything, contact your local Department of Motor Vehicles and get the facts before you proceed"
 
It's true, in life I think some people want to think what they are doing is OK or legal but as a lot of people discover what they heard or believed was legal isn't! Sometimes they find out when they are arrested or sued that maybe they didn't know everything! The only thing I suggest and have been trying to make a point of is, "Don't assume anything, contact your local Department of Motor Vehicles and get the facts before you proceed"


here's the arrogant, asshole "lawyer" response for today: "ignorantia legis neminem excusat" Latin for: "Ignorance of the law excuses not."
 
Here again your splitting hairs. I can attest to Fl only, and them I don't know the law inside and out. That cars tittle would be imprint " Rebuilt Tittle". Now how your state would deal with transferring that tittle, I can't say. BUT what this tells a perspective buyer of this car 1-2 10 years down the road, is that NO this is not a survivor or even an original restored 1970 V code 440 six Pack Challenger. And that you should expect to pay less, a lot less than a real original. How would you like it if you thought you bought the real deal, and paid a premium price, only to find out it isn't? I know I would not be happy.
This is exactly why these"rebodied" cases are not finalized no one has drawn the line as to exactly how much original metal must be retained. The resident lawyer has made the unestablished boundary of 50% purely to his own desire to claim his car as"original" and "I only used factory original" parts. I have purchased automobiles that have been"halved-butchered" by someone that went out and bought a mig welder just like a bunch of guys here and made a machine. And these came from coparts an insurance salvage pool that came with an"original"title. I had every right to sue the builder and coparts but I have found that the only winners in these situations are the"lawyers"
 
Caveat Emptor.

How much of my 67 is original? Maybe 50% the rest is from salvage yards, a police auction, fabo etc. No fewer than 27 different cars, and a 360 out of a dodge truck lol. I'm goin with the vin on the door post, thats what the title matches.

How much of the 69 notch i also have is gonna be original? Probably even less. Maybe 25% and even more parts from different cars. I will go by its vin and matching body numbers, its what the title matches.

Yes both are frankensteins, one is a slant sux car per the vin, the other a 318 car per the vin. No intent to defraud either car if sold. The vin number states what it is. Neither cars have the data tag in the engine compartment. They are both clean slates to build what i want. A bench seat 3 on the tree slant sux barracuda doesnt sound like very much fun does it.

I built a 69 charger 440 4 speed R/T "fake" in the early 90s. Never attempted to pass it off as a real one. Oh it had all the bells an whistles an R/T would have, and the correct 318 vin number and data plate in the fender it was built with. No intent to defraud.
 
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This is exactly why these"rebodied" cases are not finalized no one has drawn the line as to exactly how much original metal must be retained. The resident lawyer has made the unestablished boundary of 50% purely to his own desire to claim his car as"original" and "I only used factory original" parts. I have purchased automobiles that have been"halved-butchered" by someone that went out and bought a mig welder just like a bunch of guys here and made a machine. And these came from coparts an insurance salvage pool that came with an"original"title. I had every right to sue the builder and coparts but I have found that the only winners in these situations are the"lawyers"
It's quite simple, follow the letter of the law in the state you live. And when you sell it represent it as such and make sure the buyer is aware of the cars history, in writing.
 
Yep- and I certainly enjoy seeing all the"Frankensteins"non original" Chrysler cars. And it disgusts me to see all the"self righteous"self acclaimed all knowing Chrysler idiots! BUILD THEM-DRIVE THEM! And quit lying!!!!!
 
This is exactly why these"rebodied" cases are not finalized no one has drawn the line as to exactly how much original metal must be retained. The resident lawyer has made the unestablished boundary of 50% purely to his own desire to claim his car as"original" and "I only used factory original" parts. I have purchased automobiles that have been"halved-butchered" by someone that went out and bought a mig welder just like a bunch of guys here and made a machine. And these came from coparts an insurance salvage pool that came with an"original"title. I had every right to sue the builder and coparts but I have found that the only winners in these situations are the"lawyers"

mr. 5667....

how on earth would you "know" that my discussion of the 50% rule was to "claim that my car was original?" further, such a statement is insulting on its face. i fully explained the process that i'm going through in restoring the M-Code Cuda i purchased here on FABO. so how in the hell would i be able to claim or defend something that wasn't accurate after the details are now posted on the internet for everyone to see? i have ALSO explained that the 50% rule i'm referring to IS NOT from state statutes on vehicle registration but has to do with civil lawsuits from buyers that thought they were getting an "original" car when, in fact, the car they purchased had been substantially repaired with different parts. in addition, there are a number of LEGAL DOCTRINES that revolve around the concept of "51%" of something. for example, in negligence law (auto wreck cases) some states have what's called "contributory negligence" doctrines meaning that the person who is found to have been "51% or greater" "at fault" does not recover any damages at all. further, in general civil litigation, going over the "50%" mark may change whether someone "complied" with a standard; "supplied the correct contracted for product"; "fulfilled the agreed upon services" - all kinds of issues turn on the distribution of behavior percentage. you are not a lawyer so i would not expect you to understand these issues. but you say you have some experience with "insurance cars" so you must know that the general rule for when a car is considered "a total loss" is when the "repair costs exceed the value of the vehicle." would you like to guess what the cut-off point is generally for those calculations? yep, you get a cigar - "51%."

i have NO idea what kind of operation or business you run. what i can say is that every comment i have provided here on FABO has been honest, accurate and based upon 30 years of legal practice in Pennsylvania. generally speaking, the fundamental legal doctrines of Pennsylvania are applicable to or exactly similar to the laws of the other 49 states. so the "general legal doctrines" i talk about can be reasonably applied to other states. finally, i have also emphasized that every person should always consult the laws of the state they live in if they want to title, insure and drive their vehicle.

mr. 5667... from you comments here on FABO, i hope you have a local lawyer who you trust and who you can consult. if you don't, i would STRONGLY suggest you get one. it may only be a matter of time when you will NEED an attorney.
 
For me I'm fixing a 2 bbl 273 cuda.
If I went looking for a commando title for it to pass it off as one yes that's wrong but if I came across a rust free shell with no title I'd have no problem swapping all my parts and title over to that car. I'm sure when most of us restore and or modify our cars we're all breaking some laws and rules out there.
 
mr. 5667....

how on earth would you "know" that my discussion of the 50% rule was to "claim that my car was original?" further, such a statement is insulting on its face. i fully explained the process that i'm going through in restoring the M-Code Cuda i purchased here on FABO. so how in the hell would i be able to claim or defend something that wasn't accurate after the details are now posted on the internet for everyone to see? i have ALSO explained that the 50% rule i'm referring to IS NOT from state statutes on vehicle registration but has to do with civil lawsuits from buyers that thought they were getting an "original" car when, in fact, the car they purchased had been substantially repaired with different parts. in addition, there are a number of LEGAL DOCTRINES that revolve around the concept of "51%" of something. for example, in negligence law (auto wreck cases) some states have what's called "contributory negligence" doctrines meaning that the person who is found to have been "51% or greater" "at fault" does not recover any damages at all. further, in general civil litigation, going over the "50%" mark may change whether someone "complied" with a standard; "supplied the correct contracted for product"; "fulfilled the agreed upon services" - all kinds of issues turn on the distribution of behavior percentage. you are not a lawyer so i would not expect you to understand these issues. but you say you have some experience with "insurance cars" so you must know that the general rule for when a car is considered "a total loss" is when the "repair costs exceed the value of the vehicle." would you like to guess what the cut-off point is generally for those calculations? yep, you get a cigar - "51%."

i have NO idea what kind of operation or business you run. what i can say is that every comment i have provided here on FABO has been honest, accurate and based upon 30 years of legal practice in Pennsylvania. generally speaking, the fundamental legal doctrines of Pennsylvania are applicable to or exactly similar to the laws of the other 49 states. so the "general legal doctrines" i talk about can be reasonably applied to other states. finally, i have also emphasized that every person should always consult the laws of the state they live in if they want to title, insure and drive their vehicle.

mr. 5667... from you comments here on FABO, i hope you have a local lawyer who you trust and who you can consult. if you don't, i would STRONGLY suggest you get one. it may only be a matter of time when you will NEED an attorney.
Thank you for that wealth of information but I neither want nor do I need your opinion! Your"assumption"as to my"profession" or actions is exactly that. Carry on with your stretch of "originality" but your hypocrisy is showing.Have a nice day"Perry".
 
Thank you for that wealth of information but I neither want nor do I need your opinion! Your"assumption"as to my"profession" or actions is exactly that. Carry on with your stretch of "originality" but your hypocrisy is showing.Have a nice day"Perry".


mr. 5667...

"karma" and "actions in life" both have a way of catching up with people. i have no desire to continue a debate or discussion with you on any point.

i will, however, close with one more "legal" concept that has to do with "self-proving evidence." the doctrine is referred to as: res ipsa loquitur

that is Latin for "the thing speaks for itself"...
 
mr. 5667...

"karma" and "actions in life" both have a way of catching up with people. i have no desire to continue a debate or discussion with you on any point.

i will, however, close with one more "legal" concept that has to do with "self-proving evidence." the doctrine is referred to as: res ipsa loquitur

that is Latin for "the thing speaks for itself"...
With all due respect-I have read your posts
 
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