So....What is YOUR opinion on VIN swaps ?

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OK, new to all this...
Just where can the VIN number be found say like on a '73 Scamp, other than the plate up on the driver side dash.

I got a '73 that was used as a Drag race car for 25 years, pretty much a shell, I believe it was originally a Slat Six but has a V8 'K' member in it now and a Ford 9" in the rear. Please help me, with where I can find and verify the VIN, PLEASE.

Ken
 
You will find the numbers on the radiator support upper flange on drivers side. Usually covered with a yellow antifreeze use sticker, and on the drivers side trunk weatherstrip mounting rail under where the weatherstrip glues down to hide them about midway between the front and rear of the trunk opening. The bodys numbers wont be the full vin, rather they will be i believe the last 8 digits of the vin. These numbers are supposed to match the last 8 of your vin.

This was started in 1969 i believe. The blocks and transmissions also had machined flat spots for the 8 digit stampings matching the dash vin. All this was done originally for theft purposes to identify stolen cars or major parts from them. Now for collector cars its to identify that every thing from the body to the engine to the transmission all match the vin for "numbers matching" status showing it still has all its major parts it was born with. This is why the hubbub over a rebody or swapping vins to a lesser body.

Hope this helps
Matt
 
adriver said:
Here a number. There a number.
Ring around the rosie, Humpty Dumpty had a great fall and all the kings men couldn't bake a pie with six pence.
I can't help but feel that asking your friendly DMV what to do about your car project is like asking the IRS for tax advice.
That's how I feel anyway.

IRS — Talk is Cheap! » Let's Talk About: US Tax
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I do know one thing dont ever tell em in texas that your reconditioned car on a "green" salvage title has got a different engine in it than what it was built with originally. They will want to affix a new state issued vin to it. People swap engines all the time, but the state takes issue with that on green title paperwork.

Again know the laws in your state regarding rebuilds, salvages etc.
 
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moparmat2000 said:
You will find the numbers on the radiator support upper flange on drivers side. Usually covered with a yellow antifreeze use sticker, and on the drivers side trunk weatherstrip mounting rail under where the weatherstrip glues down to hide them about midway between the front and rear of the trunk opening. The bodys numbers wont be the full vin, rather they will be i believe the last 8 digits of the vin. These numbers are supposed to match the last 8 of your vin.

This was started in 1969 i believe. The blocks and transmissions also had machined flat spots for the 8 digit stampings matching the dash vin. All this was done originally for theft purposes to identify stolen cars or major parts from them. Now for collector cars its to identify that every thing from the body to the engine to the transmission all match the vin for "numbers matching" status showing it still has all its major parts it was born with. This is why the hubbub over a rebody or swapping vins to a lesser body.

Hope this helps
Matt
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Thank you, I just want to verify for myself. I do not intend nor have any reason to have DMV "inspect" for numbers.
I've never had them do that before. The VIN thru the windshield on the driverside dash matches the title, why would they want to look further?
It isn't like this is a rare Porsche or anything, it's just a 44 year old Plymouth Scamp.

Has anyone had an experience with DMV wanting to 'delve' deeper into the VIN numbers if the title is good and the dash VIN matches, especially if the dash VIN tag obviously looks like it has been there for 40+ years.
My '71 has a like "paper" tag with the VIN on the drivers door, but the one on the '73 has been gone for probably quite a while as the car has been repainted a few times.

Just trying to get get a good handle on all this.

Ken
 
'Cause said:
Thank you, I just want to verify for myself. I do not intend nor have any reason to have DMV "inspect" for numbers.
I've never had them do that before. The VIN thru the windshield on the driverside dash matches the title, why would they want to look further?
It isn't like this is a rare Porsche or anything, it's just a 44 year old Plymouth Scamp.

Has anyone had an experience with DMV wanting to 'delve' deeper into the VIN numbers if the title is good and the dash VIN matches, especially if the dash VIN tag obviously looks like it has been there for 40+ years.
My '71 has a like "paper" tag with the VIN on the drivers door, but the one on the '73 has been gone for probably quite a while as the car has been repainted a few times.

Just trying to get get a good handle on all this.

Ken
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They usually dont look further than the title and dash numbers. It is a 44 year old scamp, as you said probably a slant sux car. Hardly valuable in the grand scheme of things. Check the body numbers for your own piece of mind and head on down the road.

Where this starts to become an issue is with the high dollar muscle cars, and reselling such cars, possible fraud, passing off counterfeit fakes as legit etc. Back in the day in the 80s and 90s we made garden variety cars into muscle car fakes. The engine size is in the vin on a mopar so i never worried about passing off a fake i made as legit.
 
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I've had the cops come to my house to verify the VIN on cars that didn't have titles, and have had them question the number of characters in the VIN! I've also been stopped at the border for over 2 hours because the customs girl couldn't wrap her head around the number of characters ina 1966 VIN, despite all of the proper paperwork being filed and accepted!! Most municipalities, police, and really even the DMV doesn't always understand the old VIN systems!! They only know what the DMV tells them!!
 
Yup then they go OMG your 11 digit vin is fake because they ALL are supposed to have 16 digits, sorry honey only the newer cars do!!!
 
OK, there is a metal tag screwed to the inside drivers side inner fender right on the flat top area, it has a bunch of mostly 3 letter codes and the VIN at the bottom. Is this common?
 
'Cause said:
OK, there is a metal tag screwed to the inside drivers side inner fender right on the flat top area, it has a bunch of mostly 3 letter codes and the VIN at the bottom. Is this common?
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Yes, its the data plate the codes are for paint, trim, and options it had, including axle and ratio. It also includes the vin to match the dash. Did you find the other 2 sets of stamped numbers on the body i told you about?
 
I don't like what it leads to!

I have met the owner and have seen a 69 RR that is ser# 000013. Hemi 4speed, track pac option with special Press Preview fender tag. SEQ 213. Built at Lynch Road with a build date of 7/28/68.

This car apparently went to Motor Trend or similar for Press Preview and shakedown. It ended up in a dealer sales rep hands in Atlanta GA. and was then sold to the current owner in January of 69.

The car was wrecked in late 69 in the front. The radiator support was replaced but the original was kept and still present with the # stamped. Great foresight on the owners part to keep it. All the other #'s on the car, engine/trans/VIN and sheet metal are original and in place. I believe it still gives full credence to what I believe was the first or second 69 Hemi RR produced.

My take is the body/engine/trans/fender tag/vin plate all make a car. Cutting out numbers and splicing them in to foreign metal should never happen! If 90% is there and a piece that has a serial number stamp must be replaced then the original should be saved and presented with the vehicle!

Items that are regularly serviceable should not be considered as changing the originality of the vehicle IMO.
 
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Yes that was great foresight on the owners part when it was wrecked. But really, how many people actually think of that? Not many. They are just happy to get their car repaired. As far as engine and trans matching numbers that only started in 1969, so prior to that having an engine and trans with casting date numbers prior to vehicle build date is usually sufficient.

What about warranty blocks. They are in demand. The vin partial pads are machined, but no digits stamped. So if your high dollar resto project is missing its date coded block, do you find a warranty block cast 1 month prior to your car build, and stamp your vin partial on it, and use it, or look for a warranty block cast a year or 2 after your cars build date and pass it off as a warranty block with no numbers but correct for a resto?

I would say scenario #1 is fraud, stamping the vin partial in a warranty block to pass it off as original. Scenario #2 is prob legit, any number of these cars were run hard and blown up, in this case its entirely possible the original engine could have been destroyed and replaced under warranty.
 
moparmat2000 said:
Yes that was great foresight on the owners part when it was wrecked. But really, how many people actually think of that? Not many. They are just happy to get their car repaired. As far as engine and trans matching numbers that only started in 1969, so prior to that having an engine and trans with casting date numbers prior to vehicle build date is usually sufficient.

What about warranty blocks. They are in demand. The vin partial pads are machined, but no digits stamped. So if your high dollar resto project is missing its date coded block, do you find a warranty block cast 1 month prior to your car build, and stamp your vin partial on it, and use it, or look for a warranty block cast a year or 2 after your cars build date and pass it off as a warranty block with no numbers but correct for a resto?

I would say scenario #1 is fraud, stamping the vin partial in a warranty block to pass it off as original. Scenario #2 is prob legit, any number of these cars were run hard snd blown up, in this case its entirely possible the original engine was destroyed and replaced under warranty.
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If it is missing it's VIN stamped block for what ever reason, than it can never be numbers matching again! Legally!
 
moparmat2000 said:
Yes that was great foresight on the owners part when it was wrecked. But really, how many people actually think of that? Not many. They are just happy to get their car repaired. As far as engine and trans matching numbers that only started in 1969, so prior to that having an engine and trans with casting date numbers prior to vehicle build date is usually sufficient.

What about warranty blocks. They are in demand. The vin partial pads are machined, but no numbers stamped. So if your high dollar resto project is missing its date coded block, do you find a warranty block cast 1 month prior to your car build, and stamp your vin partial on it, and use it, or look for a warranty block cast a year or 2 after your cars build date and pass it off as a warranty block with no numbers but correct for a resto?
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My 69 "S" has a warranty block with the pad unstamped! I could have stamped it but that is not honest. The pan rail underneath the starter is stamped with the 69 information from Trenton including the build/production date. It is April 69! I think it was fairly common that some of these got warranty blocks.
 
For this reason I never expect to find the original given what I know and not having the original owner information!
 
SGBARRACUDA said:
If it is missing it's VIN stamped block for what ever reason, than it can never be numbers matching again! Legally!
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Thats true, but it hurts the value less if its plausable that it could have been a warranty block if your restoring a high dollar muscle car where the driveline is long gone, and begs the question, would that be deceitful using the warranty block.
 
1969383S said:
For this reason I never expect to find the original given what I know and not having the original owner information!
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Good chance you won't find it. When your Formula S was new years ago and had it's engine go bad, no one could have known what it would be worth today and save the block. Back then it was just a car that needed a engine.
 
moparmat2000 said:
Thats true, but it hurts the value less if its plausable that it could have been a warranty block if your restoring a high dollar muscle car where the driveline is long gone, and begs the question, would that be deceitful using the warranty block.
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If you stamp it? Yes
 
SGBARRACUDA said:
If you stamp it? Yes
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I meant using it as is and not stamping it. Saying it was used because the original was blown up, when your project may have came without an engine. If so thats still decietful. And if you dont say anything its between you and God.
 
Well what ever story you told about the engine that the car now has wouldn't help or hurt the value. Unless you had the paper work showing that the engine was in fact a warranty block replacement. But most people are not likely to hang onto that paper work thru the years.
 
SGBARRACUDA said:
Good chance you won't find it. When your Formula S was new years ago and had it's engine go bad, no one could have known what it would be worth today and save the block. Back then it was just a car that needed a engine.
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It would have been noticable to stamp the pad knowing the car was built in October 68 per the fender tag and the pan rail has a stamping of 4/69!!!!! I still feel like it is legit enough!
 
1969383S said:
It would have been noticable to stamp the pad knowing the car was built in October 68 per the fender tag and the pan rail has a stamping of 4/69!!!!! I still feel like it is legit enough!
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It is legit, somebody prob drove it like an animal when it was new and spit the rods out of it, viola instant warranty block.

I worked at a chrysler plymouth dealer in 1986. We did 3 warranty blocks in the year i worked there. One being a police packaged fury patrol car purchased by a local medical center for parking lot patrol duty. They certainly didnt need a certified calibrated speedo or a 360 for policing a parking lot. It came in on a flatbed with 4 bald eagle GT+4 tires, and an oil slick under it. They blew it up, and a rod was sticking out of the pan lol.

Point is this **** is pretty common. I bet even more so in the muscle car era.
 
moparmat2000 said:
It is legit, somebody prob drove it like an animal when it was new and spit the rods out of it, viola instant warranty block.

I worked at a chrysler plymouth dealer in 1986. We did 3 warranty blocks in the year i worked there. One being a police packaged fury patrol car purchased by a local medical center for parking lot patrol duty. They certainly didnt need a certified calibrated speedo or a 360 for policing a parking lot. It came in on a flatbed with 4 bald eagle GT+4 tires, and an oil slick under it. They blew it up, and a rod was sticking out of the pan lol.

Point is this **** is pretty common. I bet even more so in the muscle car era.
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Kinda my thinking, the info stamp on the pan rail from Trenton falls into that six month window from car build. Only thing is I have heard that warranty blocks back then were affixed with tag screwed in near the middle core plug on the passenger side. If so my motor has not had that tag since I bought the car in 1984. I have never seen one of those warranty tags so I do not the how truthful it is.
 
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