That would not be legal in the state of Fl. I built wrecks out of a salvage auction for years. Still involves an inspection by FHP and still issued a rebuilt salvage tittle.
So....What is YOUR opinion on VIN swaps ?
- Thread starter Kern Dog
- Start date
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If one goes to the federal motor vehicle document linked in an earlier post, it left open leeway for individual states' laws & statutes, and if You are the owner of said vehicle
and attached VIN. As has been repeated, it is all just sheetmetal, and those who would do it fraudulently to deceive intentionally will conceal it the best they can. I know
of one such vehicle personally done two and a half decades ago, at the time it was going on I wasn't aware of the fraud, it was later that I discovered what the "resto" was
really all about. The bottom line, if You actually possess a legit rare bird, and are using a donor unibody structure, it is just metal. Will You argue that hacking out the floors,
rockers,trunk pan,extensions,inner fenders,donor fenders, rear wheelhouses,quarters,tailpanel,donor/replacement valences, that You still have the same car because the
'A"pillars & trunk surround are still there? I think it should be legal for the reason that it would then be documented by those who want to save something rare, and doing
it is the most physically sound way to restore it instead of insisting on patching 3 small crippled pieces of the "original" to say "It's still the real deal!" If the job is done
right & documented, what is the difference. I believe in "Buyer beware", if You want to buy a 6pak or Hemi car, and drop 6 figures for it You should be prepared to investigate
& do the homework......or else You're coming by Your $$$ a little too easily.
and attached VIN. As has been repeated, it is all just sheetmetal, and those who would do it fraudulently to deceive intentionally will conceal it the best they can. I know
of one such vehicle personally done two and a half decades ago, at the time it was going on I wasn't aware of the fraud, it was later that I discovered what the "resto" was
really all about. The bottom line, if You actually possess a legit rare bird, and are using a donor unibody structure, it is just metal. Will You argue that hacking out the floors,
rockers,trunk pan,extensions,inner fenders,donor fenders, rear wheelhouses,quarters,tailpanel,donor/replacement valences, that You still have the same car because the
'A"pillars & trunk surround are still there? I think it should be legal for the reason that it would then be documented by those who want to save something rare, and doing
it is the most physically sound way to restore it instead of insisting on patching 3 small crippled pieces of the "original" to say "It's still the real deal!" If the job is done
right & documented, what is the difference. I believe in "Buyer beware", if You want to buy a 6pak or Hemi car, and drop 6 figures for it You should be prepared to investigate
& do the homework......or else You're coming by Your $$$ a little too easily.
K.O. SWINGER
Meeting in the alley since 1976
I hate deceit! it is a lie plane and simple.they need to be sued and then have there *** kicked,but I know first hand of someone paying more money than you would believe for a six pack 440 cuda vin tag .
moparmat2000
Well-Known Member
Not in texas it isnt, or wasnt until recently. Only requires a regular vehicle inspection by a registered service garage that does motor vehicle inspections. I have repaired and flipped 2 salvage cars myself, however neither of these included swapping any vin numbers, why that would be illegal. It also may be that they were both 1990 daytona ES hatchbacks, 1 was a V6 5 speed , the other a 2.5L automatic, and really who gives a flip about those. It starts with a TX salvage title turned in to the state, and ends with a legit texas blue title.
State recently closed the loophole now though. They will not issue any salvage titles as rebuilders. Once they get wrecked and the insurance companies total them, they go to the salvage yards, vins are put in a database and they are gone forever.
I have 1 last salvage title for a 1988 daytona shelby Z t top intercooled car collecting dust in the corner of my shop. Being that the salvage title was issued in 1999 before the closure of this loophole, fixing it and driving it is still valid under the old law as grandfathered in. and i can repair the car legally. No frame damage, car was never wrecked, just junked very tired with 197,000 on the odo.
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moparmat2000
Well-Known Member
Its only illegal if its getting put on a different vehicle than the one that came with it. Again the law states it can legally be removed for vehicle repair and or restoration, its illegal to move it to a different body.
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Obviously not one cares if your swapping /6 titles around. Mostly were talking put a 340 title on your car and there not exactly the most high dollar cars anyways you only get a little more if it's a 340. As long it ain't stolen and your building it from the ground up to be that car I have no problem if some use a different rust free shell to me that's more original than a car made out of 90% aftermarket sheet metal.
i think your question involves two different concepts: 1. illegally transferring a VIN number and 2. "rebodying" a "restored" car.
"removing a VIN" is pretty easy to understand - you have physically removed the VIN number on one car and physically attached it to another car. THAT is illegal. period. but what about your second question - how much of a car can you "replace" and still have the "original" car? my understanding is that replacing over 50% of an original car makes that car a "rebodied" car. a "rebodied" car IS NOT "illegal" so long as the original VIN number on some part of that car remained on that car. HOWEVER, you DO have to disclose these repairs if you sell a "rebodied" car or you may be in for a civil lawsuit.
look at what plymouth did on the a body barracudas 67-69. on those cars, the "VIN" or "order number" was stamped on the radiator support (front of car), the same official number was placed on the dash or drivers door pillar (middle of car) and the same official numbers were stamped on the driver's side trunk water channel under the weather stripping (rear of car). for these cars, for a front end collision, you could "legally" cut out the original stamped number on the radiator support and put that number on the "replacement" "repair" part. that would be legal. the same process could be done for the dash and rear trunk water channel numbers.
now suppose you had a 69 barracuda that was hit hard in the front and back. if you replaced the entire "front clip" and then put two new rear quarters, deck lid, lower valance and a few other misc. panels, you would probably have replaced more than 50% of the car. assuming you replaced the official numbers on the new parts, you would have a "rebodied" car. in the collector car market, rebodied cars are NOT worth as much as cars that are ALL original or that have only a few body parts replaced. that is why not disclosing all the repairs to a vehicle when you sell it opens the seller up to a civil lawsuit.
so again, two concepts: an "illegal" car with a replaced VIN number OR a "legal" car with its original VIN but still being a "rebodied" car.
I think your trying to candy coat an illegal act. If you REBODY a car, what part of it still displays the VIN number? The Vin plate you re riveted to the dash? I can't speak to laws everywhere, but years ago before there was Car FAX and companies like then that makes it harder to "hide" cars that are clipped down the center and sold to an unknowing buyer, like our early A-bodies and others, states had to come up with a method to try and control unscrupulous dealers and sellers. I use to buy cars from a auction place called Sadisco. You found all sorts of vehicles from all kinds of back grounds. There were wrecked,stolen,abandoned, donated, insurance fraud vehicles, burned vehicles ETC. They either had no tittle, you would be given a certificate of destruction, a Salvage tittle, rebuildable paper work, or bill of sale on off road vehicles. Example, I bought two 1996 Ford Escorts, one with a Salvage title, the other was a rebuildable tittle. One hit in the front, one hit in the rear. both had 1500 and 2400 miles on them. I took the one with the rebuildable tittle that was hit in the front and took the front clip off the other one that was hammered in the rear and wound up with a Rebuilt tittle after going thru the inspection process at FHP. My dad wound up with a nice low mileage Escort and I had less than 2000.00 after fixing it and selling off the remaining parts I didn't use. But from that day forward, the tittle to this car had a rebuilt tittle and the tittle stated just that. So when my dad sold it or traded it in, the buyer knew what they were getting
It's wrong ...... PERIOD
Always buyer beware... if i was in the market to buy and ORIGINAL
I would have to see...
- Original vin stamped in body in correct locations ...
- VIN tag with correct rivets ...
-underhood VIN plate
- Number matching engine and trans .........
->>>>>> BUILD SHEET <<<<<<<
Until i see all this ... it is nothing more than a car or truck ....and the price drops from there ....
Always buyer beware... if i was in the market to buy and ORIGINAL
I would have to see...
- Original vin stamped in body in correct locations ...
- VIN tag with correct rivets ...
-underhood VIN plate
- Number matching engine and trans .........
->>>>>> BUILD SHEET <<<<<<<
Until i see all this ... it is nothing more than a car or truck ....and the price drops from there ....
moparmat2000
Well-Known Member
This is why my 67 barracuda will never amount to anything in the collector car world. Originally a slant sux 3 on the tree bench seat combo with no a/c and manual everything. Only options it had as built was a trip odometer and a vacuum gage. The underhood data plate was long gone as was bench seat and the back seat which included the broadcast sheet. I am building it how i want, still has the slant sux vin tag. So be it. I'm not building it to flip otherwise i would have started with a more valuable optioned one.
Not trying to play the devils advocate here however what about the brand new dynacorn bodies? You can now get 67-68 mustang fastback bodies, 68-69 camaro coupe and convertible bodies, i believe even 70 challenger and 70 barracuda bodies. These all come with a certificate of origin. As a matter of fact classic industries sells a brand new challenger "skeleton" this is the complete body minus rear quarters, roof skin, dutchman, and taillight panel.
So a guy has the $10k or so and buys a brand new body, and has a rusted all to **** mustang coupe, camaro, challenger, or cuda with good clean paperwork and swaps everything into a factory new body shell including ALL the vin tags, body number stampings included. If thats illegal, then the gubmint would have put a stop to them selling these bodies.
Maybe they are legal because they have a certificate of origin that comes with them and the intent is always to swap everything into them including all the vin numbers. They were not a /6 car or anything else to begin with. Maybe the thought behind this is that every one of those original vin stamped car bodies at some point in time coming down the assembly line were not stamped either until a certain point in the assembly process. And until they were stamped with numbers they were all the same.
I dunno just a thought. I know if i had a hemi or 440+6 challenger or cuda that was truk lagoon rusty and completely unfixable, id probably concider a dynacorn rebody before just parting it out and crushing it. Would that be as decietful as using a 318 car as a body donor, or less decietful since its a new bare body that never had any numbers stamped into it?
Not trying to play the devils advocate here however what about the brand new dynacorn bodies? You can now get 67-68 mustang fastback bodies, 68-69 camaro coupe and convertible bodies, i believe even 70 challenger and 70 barracuda bodies. These all come with a certificate of origin. As a matter of fact classic industries sells a brand new challenger "skeleton" this is the complete body minus rear quarters, roof skin, dutchman, and taillight panel.
So a guy has the $10k or so and buys a brand new body, and has a rusted all to **** mustang coupe, camaro, challenger, or cuda with good clean paperwork and swaps everything into a factory new body shell including ALL the vin tags, body number stampings included. If thats illegal, then the gubmint would have put a stop to them selling these bodies.
Maybe they are legal because they have a certificate of origin that comes with them and the intent is always to swap everything into them including all the vin numbers. They were not a /6 car or anything else to begin with. Maybe the thought behind this is that every one of those original vin stamped car bodies at some point in time coming down the assembly line were not stamped either until a certain point in the assembly process. And until they were stamped with numbers they were all the same.
I dunno just a thought. I know if i had a hemi or 440+6 challenger or cuda that was truk lagoon rusty and completely unfixable, id probably concider a dynacorn rebody before just parting it out and crushing it. Would that be as decietful as using a 318 car as a body donor, or less decietful since its a new bare body that never had any numbers stamped into it?
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moparmat2000
Well-Known Member
Here ya go. Wow theres even more bodies. The chevelle body is a new one. They sell the challenger as a skeleton like the chevelle too. But i couldent find a pic to screenshot.
You post 50% where is that law? Your car is no different than any other car wheither you rebuild it with AMD-Dynacorn or any other Taiwan products or cut parts out of another vehicle.Theft or deceit is the issue. These vehicles/machines have been rebuilt altered since the day they were dropped off at the dealership by the dealer, body shops, or owners.I buy vehicles from Coparts and other salvage pools.
moparmat2000
Well-Known Member
Exactly, and being the dynacorn bodies do NOT come with a vin sequence number on them, and DO come with a certificate of origin they are essentially seen as just a "part" to a car. A major part, but only a part none the less. Technically a dynacorn body is not a car, just a part.
The law is written to prevent taking vins and vin number stampings from one car and fraudulently putting them on another car. You know because of vehicle theft and chop shop issues. A dynacorn body is not concidered a car until everything is installed and it runs. This is like saying an aftermarket motorcycle frame is a motorcycle. Its not!! Its a part with a certificate of origin. Granted a major part, but only a part. Its not concidered a motorcycle until its assembled into one.
Using a dynacorn body and swapping the numbers into one isnt theft or even concidered deceit. Heres a what if for you. What if chrysler decided to manufacture these shells instead of dynacorn? They would also come without vin partials stamped on them and would be essentially a replacement part. So if chrysler themselves stamped out new replacement bodies to replace rusty ones would that then be ok?
Btw if i could hazard a guess, dynacorns next body shells will probably be 68-70 dodge chargers since AMD makes most of the pieces to build one already.
I am kinda curious as to what mr jimharvard thinks on this one since he is a lawyer.
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Here you go WHAT ifing the hell out of this subject. Buy a complete new body and affix your 440 6 pak tittle to it, It's illegal period. Maybe someone here has already gone thru this process with a new body purchase? Legally it will not be tittled a 1970 V code Challenger!
Dartnut
Don't hate me because i'm beautiful
It's all about someone doing a conscious misrepresentation of a motor vehicle.
(For profit or not)
That is the illegal part.
(For profit or not)
That is the illegal part.
I couldn't have said it more to the point! Thank You
moparmat2000
Well-Known Member
Not what effing the hell outta the subject, its a valid question. The only difference is its an aftermarket manufactured body shell with a certificate of origin VS a used body shell.
Ditto with a motorcycle. You take a wrecked harley davidson with a good title and use its engine which has a vin that matches the title and put it into an aftermarket frame made by any number of frame manufacturers, is that deceitful? I dunno, but plenty of people do it all the time, all it takes is a DMV safety check to get it registered when built.
Easy enough to get the straight info on this. Contact Wyoming DMV and ask them!
jos51700
Green Bearing thread connoisseur
So I'm curious.
Let's say GM Guy buys a GM something or other with body on frame construction. It's toast, but the title is clean.
Said person buys a clean parts vehicle, and replaces the hood. No harm, no foul, right?
What if he replaces the frame? To my knowledge, this isn't an issue. The VIN lives elsewhere on the vehicle, so if I'm wrong, please tell me.
As he progresses, he replaces everything BUT THE VIN PLATE. Does the law specify a certain percentage of the vehicle that must remain original? As mentioned, some vehicles require removing the VIN plate for restoration.
On our Mopars, it's a little different.... unibody cars aren't so cut n dry.
Let's say GM Guy buys a GM something or other with body on frame construction. It's toast, but the title is clean.
Said person buys a clean parts vehicle, and replaces the hood. No harm, no foul, right?
What if he replaces the frame? To my knowledge, this isn't an issue. The VIN lives elsewhere on the vehicle, so if I'm wrong, please tell me.
As he progresses, he replaces everything BUT THE VIN PLATE. Does the law specify a certain percentage of the vehicle that must remain original? As mentioned, some vehicles require removing the VIN plate for restoration.
On our Mopars, it's a little different.... unibody cars aren't so cut n dry.
moparmat2000
Well-Known Member
Now if chrysler made those new replacement bodies and not dynacorn would it still be not be a 1970 V code challenger when assembled and titled? I mean it would be a factory chrysler body.
Again not trying to play the devils advocate, just trying to state that theres other what iffs on this subject.
Also DMVs in different states require different things and such to jump thru the hoops in each prospective state. What is concidered legal in one state is not necessarily legal in another state.
Theoretically you could use the entire rad support and trunk weatherstrip rail assy off your rotted V code challenger and transfer both to a new dynacorn body, and its still a V code challenger. The law does not state how much of the car must remain original, only that you cannot transfer that identification to another "car" a replacement " body" technically isnt a car yet, anymore than a motorcycle "frame" is a motorcycle.
Your asking the peanut gallery here. Get the fax from the state you live in. At DMV.
jos51700
Green Bearing thread connoisseur
When we replaced frames at the dealership, we had to remove a VERY distinct portion of the frame and return to HD for verified destruction.
Otherwise someone would buy an aftermarket frame (which can be had minus steering head)and reuse the VIN.
Most customs are built from state assigned VIN Numbers. The motor on the number doesn't mean much, although it used to be used by some makes add a vin back in the day.
Here again your splitting hairs. I can attest to Fl only, and them I don't know the law inside and out. That cars tittle would be imprint " Rebuilt Tittle". Now how your state would deal with transferring that tittle, I can't say. BUT what this tells a perspective buyer of this car 1-2 10 years down the road, is that NO this is not a survivor or even an original restored 1970 V code 440 six Pack Challenger. And that you should expect to pay less, a lot less than a real original. How would you like it if you thought you bought the real deal, and paid a premium price, only to find out it isn't? I know I would not be happy.
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