Solid Roller help needed

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wigsplitter74

wigsplitter74

The Mopar Kid
Joined
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Location
Janesville, WI
My dad is putting together a '69 340 for his cuda and would like to run a solid roller cam. The car will be a street/strip cruiser with right at or a lil over 10:1CR forged Diamond pistons. The block has just been bored and decked and now we need to set it up for the solid roller cam.

he's going solid roller for the power and lifespan of it but, we need to know what needs to be done to the block and where we can get whatever we need for the block. He's going solid over hyd. roller because according to a Mopar Muscle article he read on it the lifter bores don't need the machining for a solid roller that they need for a hyd. roller. Any help is appreciated here, Pops has a 347 Ford to run down so let's help him out, Thaks much.
 
wigsplitter74 said:
My dad is putting together a '69 340 for his cuda and would like to run a solid roller cam. The car will be a street/strip cruiser with right at or a lil over 10:1CR forged Diamond pistons. The block has just been bored and decked and now we need to set it up for the solid roller cam.

he's going solid roller for the power and lifespan of it but, we need to know what needs to be done to the block and where we can get whatever we need for the block. He's going solid over hyd. roller because according to a Mopar Muscle article he read on it the lifter bores don't need the machining for a solid roller that they need for a hyd. roller. Any help is appreciated here, Pops has a 347 Ford to run down so let's help him out, Thaks much.
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If you use my roller lifters, they drop right in. No machine work neccessary and they pushrod oil as well as pressure fed oil to the bearings.
PM me if you need help picking the cam....
Brian
 
ou812 said:
If you use my roller lifters, they drop right in. No machine work neccessary and they pushrod oil as well as pressure fed oil to the bearings.
PM me if you need help picking the cam....
Brian
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Cool, I'll talk to him and I will get in touch with you. His friend that is doing the machine work is a little scared of some of the block prep, mopars aren't common around here and it's hard to find a 340 that was a std. bore and only needs .030 lol so he doesn't want to have to replace it.
 
I'd bush the lifter bores. I do that on all my solid roller builds. Otehrwise, same prep as anything else.
 
moper said:
I'd bush the lifter bores. I do that on all my solid roller builds. Otehrwise, same prep as anything else.
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The article involved oil restrictors needing to be installed in drilled and tapped holes. Ever had to do this when you've done rollers ?
 
moper said:
I'd bush the lifter bores. I do that on all my solid roller builds. Otehrwise, same prep as anything else.
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Not neccessary with my lifters. They do not uncover the oil galley untill you get lobe lifts close to .430'ish range. And if I am cutting the cam, I reduce the basecircle to drop the lifter further down the lifter bore to help keep the oil galley from being exposed.
I helped in the design of these lifters so believe me they work and drop right in with NO machining what so ever!!
I'll post a pic tonite of them...
 
moper said:
I'd bush the lifter bores. I do that on all my solid roller builds. Otehrwise, same prep as anything else.
Click to expand...

wigsplitter74 said:
The article involved oil restrictors needing to be installed in drilled and tapped holes. Ever had to do this when you've done rollers ?
Click to expand...
Is this the drill and peen procedure from the MoPar books?
How is this done?
What MM issue?

ou812 said:
Not neccessary with my lifters. They do not uncover the oil galley untill you get lobe lifts close to .430'ish range. And if I am cutting the cam, I reduce the basecircle to drop the lifter further down the lifter bore to help keep the oil galley from being exposed.
I helped in the design of these lifters so believe me they work and drop right in with NO machining what so ever!!
I'll post a pic tonite of them...
Click to expand...
Thanks for the PM OU812. I just wanted to be sure.

wingsplitter, the above quote from OU812 mentions lift to .430-ish area, lobe lift, not valve lift. Lobe lift x rocker ratio equals valve lift. Just a FYI on a just incase note. (A possible error by me on the side of caution.)

.400 (lobe lift) multiply by 1.5 (Rocker ratio) = .600 lift at the valve.
 
rumblefish360 said:
Is this the drill and peen procedure from the MoPar books?
How is this done?
What MM issue?


Thanks for the PM OU812. I just wanted to be sure.

wingsplitter, the above quote from OU812 mentions lift to .430-ish area, lobe lift, not valve lift. Lobe lift x rocker ratio equals valve lift. Just a FYI on a just incase note. (A possible error by me on the side of caution.)

.400 (lobe lift) multiply by 1.5 (Rocker ratio) = .600 lift at the valve.
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I say lobe lift because that's what's responsible for lifting the lifter...valve does not matter when your trying to keep the oil galley covered by the lifter.
Anything above .430 lobe lift you may start to uncover the oil galley so that is the reason I reduce the base circle of the cam when it's ground. It drops the lifter down in the bore so you can use larger (.450-.470)lobe lifts.
 
It has nothing to do with losing pressure at max lift. It has to do with the oil pressure dropping to nothing if and when the lifter jumps out of its bore. I've had two friends lose lower ends because of a rocker failure in high gear. The lifter popped out of the bore in each case, oil pressure dropped to nothing to the bearings (they are fed off the pass side galley) as the car slowed. So I wont run a solid roller without bushing the bores. Not to mention how bad the factory locating of the bores and the usual wear is. As far as oil mods... if you bush the bores, only thing you need to do is enlarge the feeds to the mains.
 
ou812 said:
I say lobe lift because that's what's responsible for lifting the lifter...valve does not matter when your trying to keep the oil galley covered by the lifter.
Anything above .430 lobe lift you may start to uncover the oil galley so that is the reason I reduce the base circle of the cam when it's ground. It drops the lifter down in the bore so you can use larger (.450-.470)lobe lifts.
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I gotcha Brian. I knew that, it was the thing mentioned by Wingsplitter. Questioned actually directed to Moper.

Quote:
Originally Posted by wigsplitter74
The article involved oil restrictors needing to be installed in drilled and tapped holes. Ever had to do this when you've done rollers ?
Click to expand...

I don't understand "oil restrictors" for the small block and I'm not to sure on what he means by drilling and tapped holes.
 
Oil restrictors = Chevrolet. Just because the Cheby has to have them doesn't mean the Mopar does, and it doesn't. The generally accepted method of solid roller tappet installation in a small block Mopar was to tube the right side lifter galley, redrill the feeds to the mains and block the oil to the left side galley from the #1 main bearing feed.

This was done as OU812 said to keep the lifter from uncovering the oil galley feed to the lifters and thus reducing oil pressure to zero.

I'd like to run a roller in my car but it's a hassle and expensive when my Hughes max rate of lift flat tappet with 1.6 rockers delivers near roller power for much less. I've had this cam for over ten years in two different short blocks and never had a problem. It's a .630 lift with 1.5 rocker on both int and exh with 277 and 280 @.050 respectively. With the 1.6 rocker it's .672 and with the lash nets outs at .650.

I can't justify the added expense of a roller when this flat tappet is getting the job done for much less.
 
I might add that I originally wanted the next size smaller cam as the original engine it was intended for was a 340 but since they were out of stock with that particular grind Dave talked me into this larger cam. I broke it in with just the outer springs of the Hughes recommended springs but when it was all said and done it valve floated at 7500. I wanted to twist the engine to at least 8000 so instead of the Hughes spring at 110 on the seat and 330 over the nose I used a set of Cranes that were 140 on the seat and 440 over the nose. I've never used anything but Mobil 1 10w30 in the motor and never added any additives to it.
 
Guitar Jones said:
Oil restrictors = Chevrolet. Just because the Cheby has to have them doesn't mean the Mopar does, and it doesn't. The generally accepted method of solid roller tappet installation in a small block Mopar was to tube the right side lifter galley, redrill the feeds to the mains and block the oil to the left side galley from the #1 main bearing feed.

This was done as OU812 said to keep the lifter from uncovering the oil galley feed to the lifters and thus reducing oil pressure to zero.

I'd like to run a roller in my car but it's a hassle and expensive when my Hughes max rate of lift flat tappet with 1.6 rockers delivers near roller power for much less. I've had this cam for over ten years in two different short blocks and never had a problem. It's a .630 lift with 1.5 rocker on both int and exh with 277 and 280 @.050 respectively. With the 1.6 rocker it's .672 and with the lash nets outs at .650.

I can't justify the added expense of a roller when this flat tappet is getting the job done for much less.
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I replaced a high rate UD Flattappet cam for a guy once, went to roller and he picked up .3 in 1/4! That was roughly 45-50HP.
Once you get a roller cam that LIFTS the valves up and takes advantage of the whole port, it'll make quite a bit more HP. Short lift rollers will only add 20 or so HP over FT cams.
 
ou812 said:
Not neccessary with my lifters. They do not uncover the oil galley untill you get lobe lifts close to .430'ish range. And if I am cutting the cam, I reduce the basecircle to drop the lifter further down the lifter bore to help keep the oil galley from being exposed.
I helped in the design of these lifters so believe me they work and drop right in with NO machining what so ever!!
I'll post a pic tonite of them...
Click to expand...

Do these roller lifters feed pressurized oil to the roller bearings to prevent failure from long periods of idling?
 
That may very well be true but this is a bracket car, I'm not looking to set any records and quite frankly it's quick enough right now. I just can't justify the added expense, which would have to include new pistons as the valve reliefs are already maxed out and the clearance isn't that much, .058 int and .076 exh. I can't cut these pistons anymore the piston is only .090 thick at the exh relief now. So I'd be looking at like $1500 for the roller, lifters, pistons and machine work alone and for what? 3 tenths? I just can't justify that when I can build a stroker for less and probably get more.
 
Yeah but with a roller cam you aren't sweating it out when you go to break in the engine worrying about wiping a cam lobe and then having to start over. That right there is a good enough reason for me to go roller.
 
Ok here's a link to the article, I didn't think it needed restrictors because Cheby's do, IDK dick about chevys never even turned a wrench on an SBC, everytime I mention something someone hasn't heard of I get the chevy card thrown at me WTF, I said I saw it in a MOPAR MAGAZINE ARTICLE. (done with my rant now) Here's the article.

http://www.moparmusclemagazine.com/...mall_block_roller_camshaft_install/index.html
 
wigsplitter74 said:
Ok here's a link to the article, I didn't think it needed restrictors because Cheby's do, IDK dick about chevys never even turned a wrench on an SBC, everytime I mention something someone hasn't heard of I get the chevy card thrown at me WTF, I said I saw it in a MOPAR MAGAZINE ARTICLE. (done with my rant now) Here's the article.

http://www.moparmusclemagazine.com/...mall_block_roller_camshaft_install/index.html
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Something someone hasn't heard of? WTF are you talking about, I gave you the exact information contained in the article.

Since you admit you don't know dick about Chevys it's more likely that it's you that hasn't heard of something. After all you are asking the questions because you don't know. So I'll educate you a bit, doesn't hurt to know these things and why some of these practices came about.

Many years ago, maybe even before you were born some enterprising young chap invented the roller rocker arm for the small Chevy. Everyone started using them because they allowed higher lift cams and more RPM's but soon a problem developed, with the higher RPM's came more oil into the valve cover area where it couldn't drain back to the pan fast enough. The solution was to restrict the oil to the heads, thus the term "oil restrictors" was born. And that my uneducated friend is what you asked about.

Now the reason I even mentioned it was because the unwashed ignorant masses ask about restricting the oil to the top end of the motor when they put roller lifters and rocker arms on their Mopars. Why? Well because the Chevy guys do it. they ask because they don't know. Since you were asking a pretty basic question about a small block Mopar I figured you didn't know either (which you didn't) so I gave you a little free education. You're welcome.
 
Depending on what block and lifters you run, there may be some machine work needed. I had to do some grinding on the block for the pivots on my Comp roller lifters to clear the block during lift. Just test fit them before you do the final cleaning of the block.
 
Guitar Jones said:
Now the reason I even mentioned it was because the unwashed ignorant masses ask about restricting the oil to the top end of the motor when they put roller lifters and rocker arms on their Mopars. Why? Well because the Chevy guys do it.
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LMAO! Ford 351C and M series engines also suffer from over oiling the top end when roller rockers are used. Just a FYI. :read2:
 
340sFastback said:
Yeah but with a roller cam you aren't sweating it out when you go to break in the engine worrying about wiping a cam lobe and then having to start over. That right there is a good enough reason for me to go roller.
Click to expand...

AAAAMEN!:toothy10:
 
I like my solid roller 340. My engine has the old school, standard tube kit to modify the oiling system.

The one issue i do have is that now I want to move back to a less radical set up and It has proven to be a pain in the butt.

I talked to Brian some time ago and if your engine has been tubed (like mine) it can be difficult to take real advantage of the oiling allowed by his lifters….. Although his lifters are still a better option than any out there that I have seen.

Here is a pic of one of the roller lifters i was running (Can't remember what brand)… Don't have a pic of the one that failed. (The roller broke in half and fell off)…. My fault… Still trying to decide if Im going to have Crower do a custom grind or look at other options.

Anyway…. With an inboard tie-bar you don't need to grind on the block.

DSC00068.jpg
 
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