Spark/ignition issues?

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VSTwister

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I've run into another brick wall.....

In trying to make adjustments to my carburetor, something else has come up so now I can't tune the carb because the engine won't run!

The package: 71 Scamp, stock 318, 904 trans, 4bbl Holley 1850 carb with Weiand Stealth intake, upgraded to Mopar electronic ignition years back (4 pin, single ballast, orange box), with accel wires, super coil, and plugs. All else stock replacement or original. Oh I did add a Sunpro tach recently.

Car was running fine for the most part, hard cold starts and some backfiring through the carb so yesterday I took the carb off to make some bench adjustments to the fast idle and secondary plates. Put carb back on, cranks but no firing up. A few times it did actually fire up, but it ran REALLY bad and just barely (at around 300-500rpm) and would stall. Getting fuel, check. Getting spark...sorta. On #1 wire, I was getting what seemed to be an intermittent spark fire. When it did, it was a good blue spark, just not consistent it seemed. Last week I did have some issues with getting no spark at all, but after finding the main coil wire was not connected tightly, that seemed to do the trick.

Today I was trying to troubleshoot the problem some more. It seemed now though I was getting a consistent good spark but still engine cranks and does that "almost ready to fire up but not quite" routines. But it won't even fire up the least bit now. Checked power to ballast resistor and resistor ohms...all comes out fine. Power is a little weak at 10.5 to 11 volts (but battery is weak from cranking too, it is at 12.1 volts right from the terminals) and ballast ohms are 1.4. Went to get some dinner, came back and tested for spark again. Now no spark at all! Checked power to coil, is there (again weak at 11.5 volts but there) and also checked ohms of coil terminals to their specs, all comes out fine.

What else can I check and what could be going on? I figure I can check the ECU and distributor but I don't know how to test them for proper function. I'm really confused at why I was getting random/intermittent spark and now no spark at all. Since upgrading to electronic ignition years back, I've never had trouble with it. I did think that maybe for some dumb reason the tach I'd recently installed was interfering since the one wire goes to the coil. But it was running with it hooked up and also I found no difference when disconnecting it today to troubleshoot.
 
Try replacing the spark box.Did you test the coil?
 
Just had this same thing with my sons '54 Dodge truck with a /6 and Mopar ignition. We started it up for the first time last saturday and it ran fine. When we went to start it Sunday morning, nothing, just intermitten firing of a few cylinders and would not take off. The plugs were nasty so we changed them out but still the same thing. I told my son to put a differnent box on it and it fired right up. I think your orange box is dead.


chuck
 
You did hook up the PCV hose right? Not trying to be captain obvious here, but a big vacuum leak, or the wrong base gasket will make anything run like sh*t.
 
Just had this same thing with my sons '54 Dodge truck with a /6 and Mopar ignition. We started it up for the first time last saturday and it ran fine. When we went to start it Sunday morning, nothing, just intermitten firing of a few cylinders and would not take off. The plugs were nasty so we changed them out but still the same thing. I told my son to put a differnent box on it and it fired right up. I think your orange box is dead.


chuck


Hmmmm....will it really cause ignition to be intermittent? I figured it'd work right or it would fail completely. It has a ground wire, doesn't it? Or does it get ground just from being mounted to the car body? It should have ground, since it ran fine before, but I guess overtime that physical connection could get flaky.

My plugs are old but low miles on them, they look fine except for the black soot from the car running too rich (another reason why I'm trying to adjust the carb) and same with the wires but again little mileage. I have new wires to be put on but that can't be the case for complete failure of spark anyways.

BTW, when I did put the carb back on I DID forget to hook back up the PCV hose, but I remembered it after cranking the engine twice. After that I checked to make sure I had all my connections proper to rule out a fuel issue. Again no spark, so there's definitely a problem there.

Thanks for the replies everyone! I'll try looking at the orange box tonight. Is there a way to test this thing with just a dmm? Any specs on it?
 
The box grounds thru the bolts attaching it to the body. I have had boxes completly fail also. But I have had them do just like you and I described. It would partially fire what seemed like about 1/3 of the cylinders and it would almost go but it just wouldn't take off. I switch the box and it fired right up. It made it easy for me to try another box because I have 3 or 4 of them from parting out cars.


Chuck
 
The box grounds thru the bolts attaching it to the body. I have had boxes completly fail also. But I have had them do just like you and I described. It would partially fire what seemed like about 1/3 of the cylinders and it would almost go but it just wouldn't take off. I switch the box and it fired right up. It made it easy for me to try another box because I have 3 or 4 of them from parting out cars.


Chuck

Well you've got me sold on it. Out to get a new box this weekend. Although the standard parts stores around here don't seem to carry the perfomance orange or chrome boxes. Just black. I might get one of those to keep as a spare and use until I get the orange one again.

I had a 4 door Dart that I wanted to keep for spare parts, but I had to get rid of it (wife wouldn't let me keep it and I live in town so it couldn't stay sitting out). Since getting rid of it I've thought of half a dozen parts I could use from it now.

Thanks Chuck! I'll let you know what happened when I get a new ecu. You'll be the first to know if that doesn't work. :lol:
 
sounds like you may have blown the power valve. it will leak gas and run like crap at low rpm. its caused by backfire. basically just floods the engine.
 
sounds like you may have blown the power valve. it will leak gas and run like crap at low rpm. its caused by backfire. basically just floods the engine.


I've been concerned about this too, with the backfiring it has done, but I'm hoping the blowout protection is keeping it safe until I get that problem fixed. And there is the obvious problem of no spark. Waiting on order of an ecu....
 
change only 1 thing at a time to eliminate the variables. after the new box, get it running and THEN mess with the carb again. good luck.
 
....... Although the standard parts stores around here don't seem to carry the perfomance orange or chrome boxes. Just black. I might get one of those to keep as a spare and use until I get the orange one again.
......

Unless you are reving the engine to 6000 rpm all the time the orange box or chrome for that matter will not buy you anything. What those MP performance boxes do is extend th rpm range, they do not do anything for low rpm performance.
 
Unless you are reving the engine to 6000 rpm all the time the orange box or chrome for that matter will not buy you anything. What those MP performance boxes do is extend th rpm range, they do not do anything for low rpm performance.

What happens when the engine revs past the limits of the orange box? Does it misfire? Will the orange box act as a sort of poor man's rev limiter?
 
Well I bought a new box. It's just a plain aftermarket one from AutoZone. Chrome though not black.

I plugged it in, and I got spark back. However it seems the spark is more orange now than blue. But I'm back where I was....the engine almost wants to start up but does not. I got spark for sure at coil wire, but I'm still thinking it's off when firing to the cylinders. Unless it takes longer for one cylinder to repeat fire and I'm not cranking long enough, but I don't think so.

I checked the ohms on the pickup coil in the distributor, it read out 285. I read somewhere that the range should be 150-900 so that seems okay.

Cleaned up all contact points on the rotor and cap, although they weren't bad. Well, the rotor had some black buildup on the tip, but it's clean now. Hasn't seemed to make a difference in the problem anyway.

Because it's still the same problem, I'm thinking my orange box was fine and somehow from crank after crank it got zapped or something. I had spark with it when this problem first occured, then it had no spark at all. Now back to spark but no firing up.......argh.
 
Distributor is clamped down tight. I had timing set, advanced to about 10 BTDC and it was running smooth.

Edit: I checked this by getting the timing mark pretty close to sitting at 10 BTDC and rotor is pointing towards the #1 cylinder wire. So okay there.


Cam timing jump? How does this happen?
 
Alright, something fishy is going on. I sometimes lose spark altogether. I have it right now, and I just checked all cylinder wires and they are getting spark and seem to be in time (pattern of timing light flash is same to the eye). (I keep checking this quickly by using a timing light for the strobe. Occasionally I have been doing it by pulling a wire and holding close to ground, when my son is around that I can have him crank over the engine.)

Even when cranking to check all cylinders are firing it did not start up. Damn near close though, it's just at that point of wanting to.

Coil gives me a good 13+ volts when ignition switch is in run position.

Obviously I have an ignition problem....but back to my original post of this all starting with the removal of the carb for a few minor adjustments, I have a question about vacuum. Will poor vacuum cause the fuel not to atomize correctly therefore also be my problem? When I put the carb back on, I just left the same gasket on. Are they strictly one time use? It was a new gasket, just bolted on the carb with it a couple weeks ago. It was all still intact, came off the intake cleanly and stuck to the carb. Seemed to still seal tightly when I put it back on.
 
I would at minimum clean the plugs first if they are not firing you will get no strobe. You mentioned they were black from running rich. That will kill a spark just by itself. Good luck
 
There are only three vacuum lines in the carb, they are either hooked up or blocked, yes.

Probably shouldn't have a computer so close to the garage, cause it's easy to post the hell out of a thread. lol. Okay, so I'm finding something strange about the coil (or the wiring going to it perhaps). With the key in the run position, and when there is no spark working, I get about 1 to 1.5 volts from the pos side of the coil to ground. (As I mentioned earlier when I had spark, I get 12-13 volts on it.) Sound like the coil is flaky? I thought yeah, that's gotta be it. So...I had the old original coil lying around so I tried to use it to see if that made a difference. Nope. It could be bad too though, I can't really trust it too much. Hard to pinpoint a correlation in getting spark vs. no spark too. Something is amiss there, that's for certain.

The search continues....
 
What happens when the engine revs past the limits of the orange box? Does it misfire? Will the orange box act as a sort of poor man's rev limiter?

All inductive ignitions whether they are point or electronic have less output as the rpm'' increase, this is exactly opposite of what the engine needs. Electronic ignitions by design have an advantage over points in that there is no condensor to bleed of some of the power when the points open, that's why they used dual point systems.

The orange box as well as the chrome or gold from MP have better components inside that allow for faster switching plus they have have higher current carrying ability so that hotter coils and lower resistant ballast resistors can be used. These allow for the rpm's to go higher more reliably. A stock box with the best of everything else in the ignition may allow the engine to rev higher than a system with average parts and an orange box.

I wouldn't count on the ignition box to act as a rev limiter.
 
There are only three vacuum lines in the carb, they are either hooked up or blocked, yes.

Probably shouldn't have a computer so close to the garage, cause it's easy to post the hell out of a thread. lol. Okay, so I'm finding something strange about the coil (or the wiring going to it perhaps). With the key in the run position, and when there is no spark working, I get about 1 to 1.5 volts from the pos side of the coil to ground. (As I mentioned earlier when I had spark, I get 12-13 volts on it.) Sound like the coil is flaky? I thought yeah, that's gotta be it. So...I had the old original coil lying around so I tried to use it to see if that made a difference. Nope. It could be bad too though, I can't really trust it too much. Hard to pinpoint a correlation in getting spark vs. no spark too. Something is amiss there, that's for certain.

The search continues....
What voltage reading are you getting at the positive side of the ballast resistor? If it's 1 volt, there's a wiring or ignition switch issue. If it's 12 volts or more, it's a ballast resistor problem.
 
What voltage reading are you getting at the positive side of the ballast resistor? If it's 1 volt, there's a wiring or ignition switch issue. If it's 12 volts or more, it's a ballast resistor problem.

That would be the brown wire connected to the + side of the ignition coil I assume. Yes, it's 12V there. It's also 12V on the blue wire side too, that's connected to the voltage regulator. Well, close to it. I get more like 11.5V both sides. If the resistor blew open one side would be dead wouldn't it? Also, when I try to start, that resistor gets hot to the touch pretty quick. And it rings out at 1.4ohms. I already put in my replacement just to be sure, but that didn't work either.

Thanks for sticking with me on this with suggestions/help. Tomorrow will be a delay as it's anniversary for me and wifey so obviously car will have to be ignored. lol.
 
That would be the brown wire connected to the + side of the ignition coil I assume. Yes, it's 12V there. It's also 12V on the blue wire side too, that's connected to the voltage regulator. Well, close to it. I get more like 11.5V both sides. If the resistor blew open one side would be dead wouldn't it?
Yes, it sure would, so it seems as if the ballast is OK.

It does seem odd that the ballast is getting hot when you're trying to start the engine, as the ignition switch should only provide power straight to the coil, bypassing the resistor. Hmmm.... If there is a short somewhere in the ignition switch or wiring, I suppose current could run back through the resistor. I'll need to think about this.
 
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