Starter engages in run position

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ted0161

ted0161

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Starter engages in the run/on position.
It stays engaged after the engine starts and blows the fuse.
Replaced the starter relay and it still has the same issue.
If you pull the wire to the starter off of the relay as soon as it fires, it runs fine.
 
whitepunkonnitro said:
Very common symptom of a partially melted dash harness.
What year/model is the car?
Click to expand...

1974 Dodge Dart Swinger.
I bought wiper parts from you a while back.
I have the speedometer/gauges panel out and I am not finding any melted/bare wires.
I’ll dig deeper tonight.
 
ted0161 said:
1974 Dodge Dart Swinger.
I bought wiper parts from you a while back.
I have the speedometer/gauges panel out and I am not finding any melted/bare wires.
I’ll dig deeper tonight.
Click to expand...
Follow the lead from the steering column up to where it joins the main harness, and then cut away about six inches of tape wrap. You may find something right there
 
Also follow that wire from the starter relay through the bulkhead, you may also find the melted wire there. The PO of my dart, put in a push button start for that exact reason. I followed the wire and found that it had melted to a 12V on wire.

Fixed that one wire and all was good.
 
Well unfortunately, I can’t seem to find the issue.
Now not only does the starter engage in the run position, it’s not starting at all. No spark.
Nothing looks “obvious” melted/disconnected.
I’m going to find a wiring diagram to try and figure out what’s going where.
 
Did you try jumping at the starter relay to see if you have the same problem? With key in run position jump relay and make sure it's ign. switch only.
 
67Dart273 said:
BLOWS WHAT FUSE??

Is the wiring factory?
Click to expand...


There is a 20 amp fuse blade type in line where I believe a fuseable link used to be.
Starter was acting as a generator and would blow the fuse.
When that fuse blows there is no power inside the car.
 
ted0161 said:
There is a 20 amp fuse blade type in line where I believe a fuseable link used to be.
Starter was acting as a generator and would blow the fuse.
When that fuse blows there is no power inside the car.
Click to expand...

There originally is NO fuse in the starter circuit, and 20A is way too small to supply the interior. Just what is it we are working on here, year/ model? Maybe a photo of the fuse? So the wiriing is NOT factory?
 
67Dart273 said:
There originally is NO fuse in the starter circuit, and 20A is way too small to supply the interior. Just what is it we are working on here, year/ model? Maybe a photo of the fuse? So the wiriing is NOT factory?
Click to expand...
The fuse is not in the starter circuit.
The fuse works just fine as long as the starter isn’t engaged while the engine is running (acting as a generator)
The wiring harness is factory with a few repairs here and there.
 
Del said the fuse is too small and that's that! It's a fast-blo device and cannot handle a continuous load. And yes the fuse is a part of the starter circuit, just not in the way you envision it. It is in fact in the principal supply line during starting, cuz the alternator is not even on line yet.The only unfused line in that circuit, is the sub-circuit that feeds power directly to the stater solenoid from the battery.
Cut out that 20A fuse and put the proper F-LINK back in. It is a slow-blo device designed to handle many short term overloads.
But before you replace it you have to fix what is causing the overload.

I have seen this happen when certain aftermarket ignition systems are wired in and ask for the Run1 and Run 2 circuits to be bridged. Have you installed such a system?
As to the overload itself;
I have seen this overload when the amp gauge has the wires improperly oriented and it short circuits to the dash-frame.
Also I have seen the wires overheated in the bulkhead connector and fused there.
Also seen it in a bad ignition switch. This is an easy diagnostic.
Also seen a shorted electric choke do it.
Or a shorted heater blower resistor block.
Or a shorted alternator.
Or a shorted brakelite filament.That's a harder to find one.
If you ask Del he might help you with wiring diagrams. He's really really good at this stuff.
 
Last edited:
AJ/FormS said:
Del said the fuse is too small and that's that! It's a fast-blo device and cannot handle a continuous load. And yes the fuse is a part of the starter circuit, just not in the way you envision it. It is in fact in the principal supply line during starting, cuz the alternator is not even on line yet.The only unfused line in that circuit, is the sub-circuit that feeds power directly to the stater solenoid from the battery.
Cut out that 20A fuse and put the proper F-LINK back in. It is a slow-blo device designed to handle many short term overloads.
But before you replace it you have to fix what is causing the overload.

I have seen this happen when certain aftermarket ignition systems are wired in and ask for the Run1 and Run 2 circuits to be bridged. Have you installed such a system?
As to the overload itself;
I have seen this overload when the amp gauge has the wires improperly oriented and it short circuits to the dash-frame.
Also I have seen the wires overheated in the bulkhead connector and fused there.
Also seen it in a bad ignition switch. This is an easy diagnostic.
Also seen a shorted electric choke do it.
Or a shorted heater blower resistor block.
Or a shorted alternator.
Or a shorted brakelite filament.That's a harder to find one.
If you ask Del he might help you with wiring diagrams. He's really really good at this stuff.
Click to expand...
Stuck on the wrong thing gentlemen.
I realize this is going to be hard but forget I said anything about that fuse.
The fuse was and is fully functional and has been for a long time.
I have zero issues with the fuse as long as the starter isn’t engaged with the engine running.
 
AJ/FormS said:
Well Ted, you're fast sinking your ship,
Click to expand...
I realize what you are saying.
I don’t express myself well through text apparently.
I’m not trying to be rude although it may have come across like that.
I realize that the fuse is “to much protection” compared to the original f-link.
I appreciate the help.
 
ted0161 said:
Stuck on the wrong thing gentlemen.
I realize this is going to be hard but forget I said anything about that fuse.
The fuse was and is fully functional and has been for a long time.
I have zero issues with the fuse as long as the starter isn’t engaged with the engine running.
Click to expand...
If you want some help you are GOING TO HAVE to provide some info.

THERE IS NO FUSE!!! Certainly not a 20A fuse

So "let's start again?"

WHAT IS IT that you are working on? Year make and model?
EDIT............74...........sorry see that now............

IS THE WIRING factory or modified, to the best of your knowledge?

WHAT IS this 20A fuse you speak of? It seems to have been added

Look......WE are not there.........WE cannot see what you see. No idea what is going on without more information Several of us here KNOW these cars and KNOW how they work.

Someone already suggested a melted wire in the harness. That is a good possibility.

If some jackass has modified the wiring, several things are possible, including a backfeed from somewhere to the starter (yellow) wire which fires the starter relay

Added EFI, non factory electronic ignition, etc, play a part in this

What do you have for wiring diagrams?

You can download the 73 service manual from this thread........

Free service manuals

THERE WILL BE some differences between 73 and 74 wiring

Also from Mymopar you can download the same manual (which came from here LOL) as well as AFTERMARKET wiring diagrams which "can be" easier to follow BUT they sometimes leave out details and options
 
E0D7626B-D6F3-46C3-BCF4-B34A1488C12F.jpeg
A27860AC-DA72-4C3B-A21E-99797752EE29.jpeg
D5A4A8D4-3B8E-4770-BD35-93BB326CEDA8.jpeg
67Dart273 said:
If you want some help you are GOING TO HAVE to provide some info.

THERE IS NO FUSE!!! Certainly not a 20A fuse

So "let's start again?"

WHAT IS IT that you are working on? Year make and model?
EDIT............74...........sorry see that now............

IS THE WIRING factory or modified, to the best of your knowledge?

WHAT IS this 20A fuse you speak of? It seems to have been added

Look......WE are not there.........WE cannot see what you see. No idea what is going on without more information Several of us here KNOW these cars and KNOW how they work.

Someone already suggested a melted wire in the harness. That is a good possibility.

If some jackass has modified the wiring, several things are possible, including a backfeed from somewhere to the starter (yellow) wire which fires the starter relay

Added EFI, non factory electronic ignition, etc, play a part in this

What do you have for wiring diagrams?

You can download the 73 service manual from this thread........

Free service manuals

THERE WILL BE some differences between 73 and 74 wiring

Also from Mymopar you can download the same manual (which came from here LOL) as well as AFTERMARKET wiring diagrams which "can be" easier to follow BUT they sometimes leave out details and options
Click to expand...
 
Factory wiring harness with a few repairs. no added efi or anything else like that.

Now after trying to diagnose what’s going on the symptoms have changed.
Currently I can switch to the run position and it doesn’t engage the starter. However when I turn the key all the way to the start position it starts cranking but doesn’t stop when the key returns to the run position.
A minute ago I had the key in the run position and without me touching anything it started to crank on it’s own.
 
Try this........

1.....Disconnect battery ground
2.....In the engine bay disconnect the yellow start wire from the "push on" terminal of the starter relay

(There are two wires......one goes to the neutral safety switch on the transmission, the other goes into the main engine harness. That last one is what you want)
3....Take an ohmeter and with the key "locked" check resistance from the yellow wire to ground. It should be OPEN
 
E70A1007-2C3A-4037-AD80-7AB04248F0BA.jpeg
67Dart273 said:
Try this........

1.....Disconnect battery ground
2.....In the engine bay disconnect the yellow start wire from the "push on" terminal of the starter relay

(There are two wires......one goes to the neutral safety switch on the transmission, the other goes into the main engine harness. That last one is what you want)
3....Take an ohmeter and with the key "locked" check resistance from the yellow wire to ground. It should be OPEN
Click to expand...
 
Good start. Move the switch a few clicks to the CCW to the "200" ohm position

Here is what you are trying to find out..........

The start wire should be "open" with the key off in other words it should be a piece of wire connected to "nothing."

ONE THING that might complicate this is "you might" have the dreaded seat belt interlock." Look under the hood for a box about the size of a horn relay with a large red button. find the two large yellow/ yellow tracer wires going to it and cut them and join them permanently together. This is the reset box for the seat belt mess "if you have that"

What is this relay for?????

16kx4d2.jpg


If you still show a low resistance the first thing I'd try is disconnect the ignition switch harness connector and check again

If the wire goes open with switch disconnected you may have a bad ignition switch. If not you most likely have a wire melt in the harness OR someone has hacked up the wiring somehow
 
2A50511C-49E8-4E6E-88D6-5A20F11FBD5B.jpeg
67Dart273 said:
Good start. Move the switch a few clicks to the CCW to the "200" ohm position

Here is what you are trying to find out..........

The start wire should be "open" with the key off in other words it should be a piece of wire connected to "nothing."

ONE THING that might complicate this is "you might" have the dreaded seat belt interlock." Look under the hood for a box about the size of a horn relay with a large red button. find the two large yellow/ yellow tracer wires going to it and cut them and join them permanently together. This is the reset box for the seat belt mess "if you have that"

What is this relay for?????

View attachment 1715102450

If you still show a low resistance the first thing I'd try is disconnect the ignition switch harness connector and check again

If the wire goes open with switch disconnected you may have a bad ignition switch. If not you most likely have a wire melt in the harness OR someone has hacked up the wiring somehow
Click to expand...

I was one step ahead of you on the ignition switch connector, I threw a quick jumper in the seat belt interlock and the start wire went to open.
Thanks so much.
Now I need to figure out why I lost spark.
Key works like it’s supposed to now but engine cranks with no start.
 
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