Ok Mopar gurus. Yet another issue in the saga of the 1974 Plymouth Duster… So, the car ran and then it didn’t. Put a new battery in it started and ran, but then would not start again. Though the battery might be drawing power from somewhere so we charged the battery and tried to start. Upon turning the ignition to start, heard something from the area of the starter, but no start. Thought he starter pooped out. Put a new starter in it and charged the battery again. This time it made the tell-tale dead battery clicking. I don’t understanding this because I had the charger on the battery for a few hours, and it was a new expensive battery 2 months ago. Any other ideas? Ignition?
Starting issues
- Thread starter Billcode7
- Start date
-
67Dart273
Well-Known Member
You are thinking on the right track. Very first thing I'd do is to determine if you have a "draw" and then go through the cables and starter relay
To check for a draw, get the car parked, everything "off." Check things like dome light, trunk light if equipped, etc.
Remove the battery ground cable, and put a 12V test lamp in series to complete the circuit. This is best done in subdued lighting. You should see NO lamp glow at all.
If no lamp glow, or maybe a dim glow, take your multimeter and carefully set it up for the high current scale. You must be careful, as a meter current scale goes in SERIES, and too-high current can damage some meters, or pop an internal fuse. Put the meter in the ground cable in place of the lamp. Decrease the current scale setting, looking for any current flow indication. Should not be more than "just a few" milliamps
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
If this checks out, "normal" everything up, reconnect. First though, CLEAN the battery posts and clamps with a real -by - george battery post cleaner, and tighten them up. Retry the start
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Now let's make some checks. On any Mopar in these years, all use a starter relay which does two things.......
A....relieves the ignition switch of high current draw to operate the solenoid...
B....provides the component for the strategy Ma used for the neutral safety / clutch safety switches.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
You will have a starter relay, looks like this:
the big stud is a battery junction point as well as one relay contact. It is ALWAYS hot to the battery
The "square" screw terminal is the other contact and runs down to the starter solenoid
The two "push on" terminals are electrically interchangeable, and hook to the relay magnetic coil.
One terminal goes to ground through the neutral safety or clutch safety switch
The last terminal gets power "in start" from the key
ON YOUR CAR THIS WIRE may be interrupted by the SEAT BELT INTERLOCK. This is a GREAT time to bypass it and get rid of what might be a problem
Read this:
bypassing interlock system
Won't crank
Nuetral Safety
The short story is the box with the reset button, under the hood, has two "yellowish" wires. Splice those wires permanently together.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
To check out the start relay, first thing is you need a good hot battery and good cables and connections.
If the engine will not crank, hold the key into "start" and wiggle the shifter from park to neutral and back, listen for cranking or clicking
If that does nothing, identify the wire coming from the relay, from the "push on" terminal, which goes down the firewall to the transmission. One wire goes to the bulkhead connector, the other goes down to the transmission.
Pull this wire loose, and ground that relay terminal with an alligator clip lead. Be careful the transmission is not in gear, and try the key. It should crank. If so, there's problems in the neutral safety switch
If the relay clickety clicks or buzzes, this is low voltage.....concentrate on a dead or bad battery or bad cables and connections.
Hook your meter to the battery posts and hold the key to start. Does the relay click and buzz? What does the meter do? If the battery voltage is above 10.5V then you have cable problems
Post back results and we'll go on from here
To check for a draw, get the car parked, everything "off." Check things like dome light, trunk light if equipped, etc.
Remove the battery ground cable, and put a 12V test lamp in series to complete the circuit. This is best done in subdued lighting. You should see NO lamp glow at all.
If no lamp glow, or maybe a dim glow, take your multimeter and carefully set it up for the high current scale. You must be careful, as a meter current scale goes in SERIES, and too-high current can damage some meters, or pop an internal fuse. Put the meter in the ground cable in place of the lamp. Decrease the current scale setting, looking for any current flow indication. Should not be more than "just a few" milliamps
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
If this checks out, "normal" everything up, reconnect. First though, CLEAN the battery posts and clamps with a real -by - george battery post cleaner, and tighten them up. Retry the start
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Now let's make some checks. On any Mopar in these years, all use a starter relay which does two things.......
A....relieves the ignition switch of high current draw to operate the solenoid...
B....provides the component for the strategy Ma used for the neutral safety / clutch safety switches.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
You will have a starter relay, looks like this:
the big stud is a battery junction point as well as one relay contact. It is ALWAYS hot to the battery
The "square" screw terminal is the other contact and runs down to the starter solenoid
The two "push on" terminals are electrically interchangeable, and hook to the relay magnetic coil.
One terminal goes to ground through the neutral safety or clutch safety switch
The last terminal gets power "in start" from the key
ON YOUR CAR THIS WIRE may be interrupted by the SEAT BELT INTERLOCK. This is a GREAT time to bypass it and get rid of what might be a problem
Read this:
bypassing interlock system
Won't crank
Nuetral Safety
The short story is the box with the reset button, under the hood, has two "yellowish" wires. Splice those wires permanently together.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
To check out the start relay, first thing is you need a good hot battery and good cables and connections.
If the engine will not crank, hold the key into "start" and wiggle the shifter from park to neutral and back, listen for cranking or clicking
If that does nothing, identify the wire coming from the relay, from the "push on" terminal, which goes down the firewall to the transmission. One wire goes to the bulkhead connector, the other goes down to the transmission.
Pull this wire loose, and ground that relay terminal with an alligator clip lead. Be careful the transmission is not in gear, and try the key. It should crank. If so, there's problems in the neutral safety switch
If the relay clickety clicks or buzzes, this is low voltage.....concentrate on a dead or bad battery or bad cables and connections.
Hook your meter to the battery posts and hold the key to start. Does the relay click and buzz? What does the meter do? If the battery voltage is above 10.5V then you have cable problems
Post back results and we'll go on from here
mguner
How many is too many?
Does it do the same thing if you jump across the starter relay with a screwdriver? Standard procedure is to check all grounds and connections. A bad ground from engine to chassis or battery to engine can keep relay from energizing and click. Or it could be a bad relay.
Great info. I will try all that and let you know. Thanks.You are thinking on the right track. Very first thing I'd do is to determine if you have a "draw" and then go through the cables and starter relay
To check for a draw, get the car parked, everything "off." Check things like dome light, trunk light if equipped, etc.
Remove the battery ground cable, and put a 12V test lamp in series to complete the circuit. This is best done in subdued lighting. You should see NO lamp glow at all.
If no lamp glow, or maybe a dim glow, take your multimeter and carefully set it up for the high current scale. You must be careful, as a meter current scale goes in SERIES, and too-high current can damage some meters, or pop an internal fuse. Put the meter in the ground cable in place of the lamp. Decrease the current scale setting, looking for any current flow indication. Should not be more than "just a few" milliamps
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
If this checks out, "normal" everything up, reconnect. First though, CLEAN the battery posts and clamps with a real -by - george battery post cleaner, and tighten them up. Retry the start
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Now let's make some checks. On any Mopar in these years, all use a starter relay which does two things.......
A....relieves the ignition switch of high current draw to operate the solenoid...
B....provides the component for the strategy Ma used for the neutral safety / clutch safety switches.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
You will have a starter relay, looks like this:
the big stud is a battery junction point as well as one relay contact. It is ALWAYS hot to the battery
The "square" screw terminal is the other contact and runs down to the starter solenoid
The two "push on" terminals are electrically interchangeable, and hook to the relay magnetic coil.
One terminal goes to ground through the neutral safety or clutch safety switch
The last terminal gets power "in start" from the key
ON YOUR CAR THIS WIRE may be interrupted by the SEAT BELT INTERLOCK. This is a GREAT time to bypass it and get rid of what might be a problem
Read this:
bypassing interlock system
Won't crank
Nuetral Safety
The short story is the box with the reset button, under the hood, has two "yellowish" wires. Splice those wires permanently together.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
To check out the start relay, first thing is you need a good hot battery and good cables and connections.
If the engine will not crank, hold the key into "start" and wiggle the shifter from park to neutral and back, listen for cranking or clicking
If that does nothing, identify the wire coming from the relay, from the "push on" terminal, which goes down the firewall to the transmission. One wire goes to the bulkhead connector, the other goes down to the transmission.
Pull this wire loose, and ground that relay terminal with an alligator clip lead. Be careful the transmission is not in gear, and try the key. It should crank. If so, there's problems in the neutral safety switch
If the relay clickety clicks or buzzes, this is low voltage.....concentrate on a dead or bad battery or bad cables and connections.
Hook your meter to the battery posts and hold the key to start. Does the relay click and buzz? What does the meter do? If the battery voltage is above 10.5V then you have cable problems
Post back results and we'll go on from here
haven't jumped the starter relay yet. do you just touch a screwdriver to the hot terminal on the relay?
ScampMike
Despicable Damn Yankee
I prefer to use a piece of wire - helps to eliminate the possibility of touching the "wrong" thing - the wire only needs to be 6-8" long- just about anything except speaker wire.. touch one end to the battery terminal and one to the starter terminal (I think it is the bottom left terminal) you'll likely get a quick spark and the starter will engage.. no need to hold it there - it'll either spin the starter or it won't.. if it does, it is likely the relay that is suspect - - replace it and try via the key/ignition switch again.
67Dart273
Well-Known Member
No that is not true If you jumper the relay, and the starter cranks, all that proves is that the relay is not ACTUATING. In that case it could be several things..........
1.....Power not getting to the relay, IE ignition switch problems, wiring through the bulkhead, the mentioned above, seat belt interlock
2.....Relay not grounding through the neutral safety switch, so, mis-adjusted shift linkage, bad switch, poor connections at the switch or broken damaged harness.
ScampMike
Despicable Damn Yankee
LOL- you beat me to my edit - -I did change that to "it is likely the relay" - of course it could be other things...
67Dart273
Well-Known Member
This brings up another point. "Back in my day" my 69 RR rattled around until it BROKE the solenoid wire right there at the starter. These were originally a "dual" molded connector with the solenoid wire and battery cable molded together. The solenoid wire broke inside the molded terminal.
On a 383RR, "not so much fun" in Navy dress whites to reach down and start the darn thing.
On a 383RR, "not so much fun" in Navy dress whites to reach down and start the darn thing.
You are thinking on the right track. Very first thing I'd do is to determine if you have a "draw" and then go through the cables and starter relay
To check for a draw, get the car parked, everything "off." Check things like dome light, trunk light if equipped, etc.
Remove the battery ground cable, and put a 12V test lamp in series to complete the circuit. This is best done in subdued lighting. You should see NO lamp glow at all.
If no lamp glow, or maybe a dim glow, take your multimeter and carefully set it up for the high current scale. You must be careful, as a meter current scale goes in SERIES, and too-high current can damage some meters, or pop an internal fuse. Put the meter in the ground cable in place of the lamp. Decrease the current scale setting, looking for any current flow indication. Should not be more than "just a few" milliamps
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
If this checks out, "normal" everything up, reconnect. First though, CLEAN the battery posts and clamps with a real -by - george battery post cleaner, and tighten them up. Retry the start
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Now let's make some checks. On any Mopar in these years, all use a starter relay which does two things.......
A....relieves the ignition switch of high current draw to operate the solenoid...
B....provides the component for the strategy Ma used for the neutral safety / clutch safety switches.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
You will have a starter relay, looks like this:
the big stud is a battery junction point as well as one relay contact. It is ALWAYS hot to the battery
The "square" screw terminal is the other contact and runs down to the starter solenoid
The two "push on" terminals are electrically interchangeable, and hook to the relay magnetic coil.
One terminal goes to ground through the neutral safety or clutch safety switch
The last terminal gets power "in start" from the key
ON YOUR CAR THIS WIRE may be interrupted by the SEAT BELT INTERLOCK. This is a GREAT time to bypass it and get rid of what might be a problem
Read this:
bypassing interlock system
Won't crank
Nuetral Safety
The short story is the box with the reset button, under the hood, has two "yellowish" wires. Splice those wires permanently together.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
To check out the start relay, first thing is you need a good hot battery and good cables and connections.
If the engine will not crank, hold the key into "start" and wiggle the shifter from park to neutral and back, listen for cranking or clicking
If that does nothing, identify the wire coming from the relay, from the "push on" terminal, which goes down the firewall to the transmission. One wire goes to the bulkhead connector, the other goes down to the transmission.
Pull this wire loose, and ground that relay terminal with an alligator clip lead. Be careful the transmission is not in gear, and try the key. It should crank. If so, there's problems in the neutral safety switch
If the relay clickety clicks or buzzes, this is low voltage.....concentrate on a dead or bad battery or bad cables and connections.
Hook your meter to the battery posts and hold the key to start. Does the relay click and buzz? What does the meter do? If the battery voltage is above 10.5V then you have cable problems
Post back results and we'll go on from here
Ok, so I bypassed the seatbelt interlock as instructed. Jumpered the starter relay as instructed. Upon turning the ignition while the starter relay was jumpered I heard a click. Ok, possible dead battery. So, since my battery charger won’t give it enough juice to crank, I actually jumped the battery with another vehicle (jumper cables). Vroom car starts, runs for about 1 minute and dies. Turn the key again nothing. Hook the jumper cables back up and jump the battery again. Upon turning the key to start I get a click and a spark from the negative battery terminal where the jumper cable is attached… Bad battery? Cable? Relay?
ScampMike
Despicable Damn Yankee
ah ha - certainly sounds like the battery is highly suspect here - - are you SURE the charger works? when you jump started the car where did you connect? if it was to the battery in the car - - you almost surely need a new battery in your car. In fact - you jumpered from the battery post on the relay to the starter post on the relay and nothing happened? that my friend is a dead battery - you shouldn't have even needed to turn the key if you did it correctly, that move would have energized the starter key on or not
Last edited:
Yea I just connected the jumper cables from battery to battery (Pos and Neg). I get the dead battery thing, but the weird spark when trying to start it again is what threw me.. I guess I'll have to check my charger too.
superchargeddrt
Well-Known Member
Sounds like your battery is toast. Did you measure the voltage at the posts (not the cable clamps)? Should be approximately 13 volts, if not disconnect the cables and attach your charger DIRECTLY to the battery posts. If the battery is severely discharged then you will likely not see the current meter on your charger move but after about a half hour you should notice the meter start to come up. As the battery charges the meter will work it's way back to zero. Clean the posts and cables, reconnect and try again. Good Luck.
I did not measure the voltage, but I will. I think you guys are right... Battery is wasted.
ScampMike
Despicable Damn Yankee
you know - now that I reread your first post - the tell tale clicking noise tells me the relay is fine - if the relay was shot - you'd have gotten nadda - that clicking is the starter solenoid saying I feel juice, but it's way too little. AND, as the battery is only 2 months old - - look to that charger as the problem, a 2 month old battery should take a charge.
67Dart273
Well-Known Member
Bad battery and DEAD battery are two different things. Have you charged it? Determine if the car's system has a parasitic draw
Unhook the ground cable and wire a test lamp in series with the ground. Look at the bulb in subdued lighting. ANY glow from the bulb (make sure everything is turned off) means you have a drain.
Might pay to charge it and take it to someone who can load test the battery.
Unhook the ground cable and wire a test lamp in series with the ground. Look at the bulb in subdued lighting. ANY glow from the bulb (make sure everything is turned off) means you have a drain.
Might pay to charge it and take it to someone who can load test the battery.
I have charged the battery a couple of times. I even unhooked the battery cables and charged the battery by itself. I think I may have determined a draw. My son put a new steering wheel on and it kept triggering the horn. So we unhooked the horn(just the wire at the horn), but did not disable the horn switch. I think the draw might be that the horn is constantly being activated. We pulled the steering wheel off tried charging the battery again... nothing.. I will have to check to see if there is another draw, but its suspicious because the old battery and now the new battery didn't die until we put the new steering wheel on.
67Dart273
Well-Known Member
The steering wheel issue is CERTAINLY suspect. You can easily determine a draw with a test lamp and multimeter.
Another way is simply pull out the horn relay. That is what would be happening. Even if you unhook the horn itself, the relay is being activated.
But what you are not saying is.........what happens when you charge the battery? Does it crank? If not, still could be bad connections / cables AND STILL COULD BE a bad (defective) battery. "New does not mean functional." As I said, getting the battery load tested is a good idea. Lacking that, temporarily swap a suspect battery into a known working car and see if it will crank that car OK
Another way is simply pull out the horn relay. That is what would be happening. Even if you unhook the horn itself, the relay is being activated.
But what you are not saying is.........what happens when you charge the battery? Does it crank? If not, still could be bad connections / cables AND STILL COULD BE a bad (defective) battery. "New does not mean functional." As I said, getting the battery load tested is a good idea. Lacking that, temporarily swap a suspect battery into a known working car and see if it will crank that car OK
Upon jump starting the car it cranked. upon just charging the battery it does not crank (it does the dead battery click). I will pull the horn relay and try your idea of putting the battery in a different car to see what happens. maybe it could be as simple as getting a new battery. I am going to check the cables too just to make sure.
Wondering what has happened since this last post. I am having similar symptoms...
-
