Stellantis "ghosting" Chrysler
- Thread starter 65 Cuda 340
- Start date
-
Map63Vette
Well-Known Member
Yeah, the hard part is understanding what enthusiasts want vs what people buy and reconciling that. As much as we talk about wanting small cars with really good performance, the reality is that as expensive as cars are getting, people want to buy one car to do everything. If I'm going to drop $60k+ on a car, I need it to be able to carry groceries and a couple of people somewhere in a pinch. If you're fine with buying an expensive "weekend toy" that you only drive a couple of times a year, you're probably more likely the kind of person shopping for supercars and stuff like the Viper.
Don't get me wrong, I love the fact that you can buy a 700+ hp sedan to haul the kids to school and stop by Costco on the way home to fill the trunk with stuff. The "Hellcat everything" approach was a pretty good way to appease the enthusiasts while still catering to the majority of the market, but the market is really the problem more than the manufacturer. In the end I think we have to realize that we are a minority of the market for cars. We're the guys that turn wrenches and tweak and tune and build our own stuff. For every Hellcat sold they probably sold 10x as many base 5.7s or 6 cylinders.
DionR
Well-Known Member
Just my opinion, but I think part of the reason those regular Chargers and Challengers sold is because of the Hellcats and such. The power of a halo car. But that isn’t something you can put in hard data form, so I think the idea gets lost on management and all they see is money spent. So while those top dog options might not sell well and might even cost the company money, they miss that they sold dozens of regular models that might not have sold otherwise.
I’ve often wondered what an SRT4 Dart would have done for the model. I have never driven a late model Dart, so maybe it is a terrible car, but people love the Omni GLHS and that isn’t exactly a groundbreaking chassis. I wonder if having a “halo” model of the Dart would have made the model profitable.
But I agree, we are actually the minority and most car buyers are looking for transportation, not really fun. Worse yet, I think we kind of shoot ourselves in the foot because we look at the price tag and think “I can build something better for much less” or “I will buy used and modify it”, resulting in the model not selling well and the car company suffering and getting the message that performance doesn’t sell.
In some ways, I think the Hellcat has hurt the performance market. With the idea of 700+ hp, people can’t seem to see that a 300 hp v6 in a small, light car could be a blast.
SRT Dart did exist and they have a following.
Ferrari designed 1.4 turbo, six speed manual, same as my Renegade.
That motor can scoot and actually sounds like a Ferrari when opened up.
34.6 MPG average. In my comparably heavy Renegade.
Better power to weight ratio (in my Renegade) than a 318 powered Duster.
Ferrari designed 1.4 turbo, six speed manual, same as my Renegade.
That motor can scoot and actually sounds like a Ferrari when opened up.
34.6 MPG average. In my comparably heavy Renegade.
Better power to weight ratio (in my Renegade) than a 318 powered Duster.
Last edited:
DionR
Well-Known Member
??? In Europe or something?
Never heard of a production SRT Dart. I see they built one to race and had planned to introduce it, but the Dart was canceled before they released it as I understand it.
Map63Vette
Well-Known Member
I wouldn't disagree about the halo car stuff. It's kind of like the old "win on Sunday, sell on Monday" idea. You get eyes on the brand people in the dealerships actually looking at stuff. Competition in the market is a lot different nowadays as well. I remember back when Kia and Hyundai were kind of joke cars, and now they are putting out some really impressive stuff. I think the big three often lean a little too much on "buy American". I get it and do think we should support our own manufacturers, but at the same time they have to have something you want to buy to make that work. Competition is good and is supposed to make for better product.
All my Jeep GC/C have had design defects at 70-100 (HVAC, transmission). Maybe that's par for the course. My newer German vehicles were probably worse but people still buy them for some reason. The fact of the matter is if you don't build vehicles people want the volumes will be insufficient to survive.
DionR
Well-Known Member
???
The rebate is for people that already own one of those and trade it for a new Charger.
Not following your logic.
Map63Vette
Well-Known Member
I will say they also look quite a bit better in person. The low angle view doesn't do them as must justice as one from actual eye level.
jos51700
Green Bearing thread connoisseur
I misunderstood it. I can see where you get that, but it's not the clearest I've ever read.
I leased a Scat Pack EV about a year ago because leases were ludicrously cheap. Things have gotten worse for them since then. Nobody wants them. I would be hard pressed to buy one. Maybe the value of them has sunk as far as it will go. Leasing is a lot lower risk.
There are a lot of lemons out there, so I would check the service history really carefully. Mine has been a good one with only one trip in for service. It has not started three times for me, but I walk away for 5-10 minutes and it fires right up. Electric cars are basically rolling computers, with all the same issues. They are fairly buggy, even when at their best. Owning one without a warranty would be a death wish.
With all that said, mine is easily the nicest and most fun car I have ever owned. With 670 horsepower, it will kick the crap out of my 23 scat pack challenger wide body in about anyway you can think of.
I am not an EV guy, but the number of smiles per mile is pretty high. Mine was $80k sticker which is really ridiculous for an EV dodge. I think they were built more to compete with a Lexus or BMW at that price. Make sure you get one with the plus package, that’s where all the cool stuff is.
Go drive them, see if you can take one home for the weekend.
If you can charge at home, operating cost is really cheap. If you have to charge on the road, it is about the same as $5 gas.
They compete with teslas (which ain't cheap).
Our son has a model S tesla with the plaid package and the speed hack.
Insane 0-60.
Worth repeating.
Insane.
He pays about 25 bucks a month to charge it at home with a 240V 50 amp charger.
It's the third of four they've had.
I guess they like them.
Our son has a model S tesla with the plaid package and the speed hack.
Insane 0-60.
Worth repeating.
Insane.
He pays about 25 bucks a month to charge it at home with a 240V 50 amp charger.
It's the third of four they've had.
I guess they like them.
Yeah, a plaid is crazy fast. Two seconds 0-60. The fastest muscle cars back in the day were 5 second cars. Even my Charger at 3.3 seconds 0-60 will make me dizzy, but I am a wimp.
I heard Tesla plaid is one of the most expensive cars to insure.
I heard Tesla plaid is one of the most expensive cars to insure.
They kept them for three to four years and traded them in.
jos51700
Green Bearing thread connoisseur
Why trade them in? I'm asking from the perspective of 'mileage isn't as important in an EV'.
New features?
Better 'tech'?
Expanding family? (I.e. sports car to sedan)
It seems like trading in EV's is just a good way to drain off your equity (which also applies to ICE vehicles, and my brother trades for a new pickup every three years no matter what, and he's just rolling that debt forward over and over.)
No sir. MB only was a SMALL part. How old are you? Do you remember Jimmah Carter bailing them out in the late 70s? I do. It WAS THEIR OWN FAULT they had to have a gubmint bailout. Here is a tiny snippet from an article about it: "Chrysler struggled with outdated models and quality control issues" Yeah, uh huh. Makin BULLSHIT all the way back then. See, I know "a little" about all this, because my Uncle was Executive Director of The Federal Trade Commission in the Reagan administration for both terms. You didn't see Ford or GM get bailouts that early. Why? Cause they weren't makin the JUNK Chrysler was. Thank GOD for Lee Iacocca. He AT LEAST got them back in the red. Chrysler may not have invented front wheel drive, but brother, they sure as HELL perfected it with the K car platform. That ONE CAR LINE ALONE saved Chrysler's ***. For a short time.
It's been dead to me ever since the Mopar Performance line of parts for the legacy engines stopped production. Not that they weren't without issues like the aluminum sprinkler heads and the like, but at least they were still trying to do new things and keep the LA, B/RB, and Gen 2 Hemi engine support active as well as compete in more motorsports. It's not even a shadow of the corporation it used to be since the latest group of foreign investors took over.
Map63Vette
Well-Known Member
Yeah, I know I've seen some reviews that highlight that this is Dodge's first go at it, and because of that there are plenty of bugs. The annoying part to me is that I'm a tech kind of guy and actually designed an EV industrial truck at my last job (well, I picked parts and mounted them at least), so I'm moderately familiar with all the systems and how they operate. I would want to dig into it and fix it, but I'm certain the tools and access isn't there to diagnose things the way I would want to.
I also know it could never be my only car. No matter how entertaining it might be when you hit the throttle, I think it would be too boring for me if it didn't have more feedback for other stuff. I had a 2000 Jag XKR for a daily for a while and it was a lovely car, but just got really boring. It had everything I never had before like cruise control, automatic climate control, NAV, power everything, etc. (coming from a 71 Vette and my 67 Dart when I still had the carb'd 5.7 Hemi, so not a challenge, lol). It was super comfortable to drive and looked sweet, but it was an auto and just too insulated to me. There was no feedback and the engine was just sort of bland unless you really kicked it hard, but then it didn't feel like the rest of the car wanted to keep up.
I test drove a 5.7 and a 6.1 Challenger that I was thinking of trading the Jag in for and to me the 5.7 felt a little similar to the Jag in that the engine was fine, but you had to actually lean on it to make it feel like it wanted to go. The 6.1 to me felt more like a horse tugging at the reins all the time and you had to hold it back instead of prodding it to go like the 5.7. I really liked it, but it was going to be pushing my price range. Humorously enough I ended up with my 04 Viper instead of either because my mom had a 94 that was really fun to drive, but I wanted a roof and windows. I started looking around and found I could get one for the same price as the 6.1, so I went that route instead.
Charging at home would be a weird one for me, not because I don't have a house and garage, but because I couldn't park the car in the garage. My wife gets one side and my Viper gets the other, so the EV would have to sit outside. I could probably just put the charger on the wall between the doors though, so likely not a huge issue, but a little awkward.
Clearly remember Iacocca paying that loan back well ahead of schedule, as well.
...and wanting to vote for him as POTUS.
gm and ford bailouts came later.
mini van is what saved chrysler ......
i kept hearing rumors of a dakota replacement
had every gen loved them all
it seems like they haven't had a "new" idea in years
i kept hearing rumors of a dakota replacement
had every gen loved them all
it seems like they haven't had a "new" idea in years
I did too. REAL BAD. He'd made a goodun.
dbc105
Member
I'm a Muscle Car guy and I love EVs. I don't care about the sound, I have quiet mufflers and windows up and a/c on with everything I own. The EVs I've drove so far were fast, a couple, very fast. Nothing ssays Muscle better that extreme acceleration.
-
Similar threads
