Swapped out instrument cluster and car wont start

[72valiant]

I just swapped out the instrument cluster in my '72 Valiant and now the car won't start. My headlights and radio work so I don't think it's the battery plus I had it disconnected the whole time. Anyone have any pointers? My wife's gonna be pissed if I have to use her car to get to work...

 

[RedFish]

All the power inside the cabin goes through the ALT' gauge via the big red and black wires. I suspect your problem is right there.
If you allowed sparks to fly before disconnecting the battery , the fusible link under the hood is burned open.

 

[72valiant]

I unhooked the battery before I started on anything. I screwed the black and red wire back in where I found them, but maybe I didn't do them tight enough. Does it matter what order they go in? I put the black one at the end and then the red one next to it. I'll go check them again and see what happens.

 

[67Dart273]

If you have any power at all it's not the ammeter connections, otherwise headlights, etc won't work

Likely a bad connection at the ignition switch, maybe you pulled on the harness, or even at the bulkhead connector where the IGN run wire feeds through.

You can download a 72 shop manual for free here:

http://www.forabodiesonly.com/mopar/showthread.php?p=1970088617



Here:

http://www.madelectrical.com/electricaltech/amp-gauges.shtml

Diagram down this page is a simplified view of how most of these cars distribute main power

From the battery........starter relay......fuse link..........through the bulkhead..........to the ammeter.........through the ammeter.........out the black wire..........and to the welded splice. There, power branches off to the ignition switch, headlights, etc

The fact that the radio works means you have power TO the radio. There are TWO IGN wires through the bulkhead, "IGN2" which is the ignition bypass wire and goes to the coil side of the ballast, and "IGN1" which is run

 

[TrailBeast]

"Likely a bad connection at the ignition switch, maybe you pulled on the harness, or even at the bulkhead connector where the IGN run wire feeds through."

This would be my first thought on it.
The only difference the amp guage would make is that it would read backwards if you hooked the red and black up backwards.

And Del is correct that you wouldn't have ANY power to anything if it was the amp guage, or the way it was connected.

If you have any power at all it's not the ammeter connections, otherwise headlights, etc won't work

Likely a bad connection at the ignition switch, maybe you pulled on the harness, or even at the bulkhead connector where the IGN run wire feeds through.

You can download a 72 shop manual for free here:

http://www.forabodiesonly.com/mopar/showthread.php?p=1970088617



Here:

http://www.madelectrical.com/electricaltech/amp-gauges.shtml

Diagram down this page is a simplified view of how most of these cars distribute main power

From the battery........starter relay......fuse link..........through the bulkhead..........to the ammeter.........through the ammeter.........out the black wire..........and to the welded splice. There, power branches off to the ignition switch, headlights, etc

The fact that the radio works means you have power TO the radio. There are TWO IGN wires through the bulkhead, "IGN2" which is the ignition bypass wire and goes to the coil side of the ballast, and "IGN1" which is run

 

[72valiant]

All the wires look fine from what I can tell. I'm not really familiar with this cars wiring though. When I took the old dash out I had no problems. Everything came of and on pretty easily. I tried to reconnect the old dash but the car still won't start. The battery is fully charged also. There's so many wires down there I'm having a hard time finding which wire runs to the ignition. Everything else seems to work: radio, heater, exterior and interior lights. I feel like I'm in over my head, but I gotta get this thing running.

I was replacing the cluster because the temp/ fuel/ and speedo wasn't working on the old one. From what I can tell the temp and fuel still isn't working. :/

 

[67Dart273]

"Finding ignition" is easy. You don't worry about where they "go" You worry about where they go TO

Start by downloading the shop manual in the link I posted above. Go to the column. You might have to remove the small trim piece under the column. There will be two connectors coming out of the column, one is for the ignition switch and one is for the turn signal switch.

You have a meter? test lamp?

From the switch, there will be two wires (I'll have to look up color for 72) coming out of the switch and these go through the bulkhead and to the ignition system

Put your meter / test lamp on the coil + terminal. Turn the key to "run" You should read some voltage, might only be 5-6 volts or so

In the 72 Plymouth shop manual, page 8-150 is the cluster / dash wiring for Valiant

Go down to 8-150 and find "steering column" this is the switch connector. This is what you are looking for, coming out of the column. From top to bottom, "Start" is S2-12Y. This means wire circuit no. S2, the wire is a no 12 gauge, and is Yellow. This is the "start" wire which fires the start relay

Next is Q2-12BK. This is the big black wire going OUT of the switch and is hot when key is in "accessory" and "run". This feeds TO the fuse panel on stuff that is switched, like the heater

Third from top is J2B-12DBL. This is "IGN1" or "ignition run". This is hot ONLY in "run", no other position. This operates warning lights, gauges, ignition, feeds the regulator and alternator field circuit. IF YOU HAVE no voltage at the coil with the key in RUN, check this NEXT

Fourth, is J3-12BR IGN2. This is the coil "bypass" circuit and feeds voltage to the coil / ignition during cranking. This is hot ONLY when key is twisted to "start."

Fifth from top, we have J1-12R BATTERY. This is the battery voltage coming INTO the switch and should be HOT at all times.

The rest towards the bottom are not important at this time

 

[TrailBeast]

All the wires look fine from what I can tell. I'm not really familiar with this cars wiring though. When I took the old dash out I had no problems. Everything came of and on pretty easily. I tried to reconnect the old dash but the car still won't start. The battery is fully charged also. There's so many wires down there I'm having a hard time finding which wire runs to the ignition. Everything else seems to work: radio, heater, exterior and interior lights. I feel like I'm in over my head, but I gotta get this thing running.

I was replacing the cluster because the temp/ fuel/ and speedo wasn't working on the old one. From what I can tell the temp and fuel still isn't working. :/

Uh Oh, things get deeper quick.

 

[67Dart273]

About the next thing if you DO have voltage at the ignition switch connector and do NOT have voltage at the coil is to check the bulkhead connector

 

[67Dart273]

This is the ENGINE side of the bulkhead connector. You have to look at the INSIDE diagram posted above and turn it around in your head So starting with the ignition switch, let's say you are checking out "IGN1" or ignition run, J2 (J2B)-12DBL (dark blue). Now look at the wiring diagram of the bulkhead connector and find the J2 wire (which I cropped LOL) you'll find it goes to terminal "N" of the bulkhead

Now look at the PHOTO of the INTERIOR of the bulkhead connector and find "N" which is top right of the middle column.

Now turn this around in your head and look at the one in the post BELOW of the ENGINE side.

Now if you jump to engine compartment wiring for the Valiant, page 8-147, you'll see the engine side diagrammed. NOTICE the tab in the photo below. This puts "N" at the bottom right terminal of the central connector section. This should end up with a ..................DARK BLUE wire coming out of the bulkhead!!!!

 

[RedFish]

ok so if you have power everywhere and no start, I'll take another stab at it... You lowered the steering column and/or pulled down on it to get the inst' panel out. Thise changed neutral safety switch setting in column shift linkage. Move the shifter to neutral and wiggle it while trying to start.

 

[67Dart273]

ok so if you have power everywhere and no start, I'll take another stab at it... You lowered the steering column and/or pulled down on it to get the inst' panel out. Thise changed neutral safety switch setting in column shift linkage. Move the shifter to neutral and wiggle it while trying to start.

Very good point...............Column shift?

 

[TrailBeast]

ok so if you have power everywhere and no start, I'll take another stab at it... You lowered the steering column and/or pulled down on it to get the inst' panel out. Thise changed neutral safety switch setting in column shift linkage. Move the shifter to neutral and wiggle it while trying to start.

Good call RedFish.
Try neutral also.
I was thinking about the connector for the column too.

 

[72valiant]

Yeah, it's a column shifter. I did have to lower the column to get the cluster out. I'll go out and wiggle it in neutral real quick. Thanks for all the info so far! I'm learning a ton today, lol.

 

[72valiant]

I feel so dumb. I went and put her in neutral and she started right up! Thanks for the help!

I bought this cluster for really cheap and unfortunately it isn't much better than the one I had. Fuel, Temp, and Speedo still don't wanna work. The speedo will work until I hit highway speeds and then it just goes crazy. At least the new one looks prettier, and I was also able to put in some duct hoses while the cluster was out. So today wasn't a total loss.

 

[RedFish]

You're not the first...
So many have chosen to swing a small child from the steering wheel rather than remove those 3 bolts at lower column plate.
The only way to correct the neutral safety switch adjustment is to jack it up and crawl under.
If the signal switch still works as it should ( check to see you still have brake lights ) and the horn doesn't blow in turns, it could be worse.

 

[nothingbutdarts]

You're not the first...
So many have chosen to swing a small child from the steering wheel rather than remove those 3 bolts at lower column plate.
The only way to correct the neutral safety switch adjustment is to jack it up and crawl under.
If the signal switch still works as it should ( check to see you still have brake lights ) and the horn doesn't blow in turns, it could be worse.

Great call RedFish!!!!!

 

[72valiant]

I've had the old Valiant in a body shop for the past month and just now got it back. Seems I'm still dealing with an issue I caused with the neutral safety switch. So far it seems about 1 time out of every 5 cranks it won't start unless I put the car in neutral. So, I've got two questions:

How do I adjust the neutral safety switch to get the car back to normal?

And what is the correct way to get the instrument cluster out of the dash? Last time I removed just enough bolts to where I could push the column down about an inch. I'm gonna need to remove it again soon, and I don't wanna damage anything else.

Thanks!

 

[RedFish]

A factory service manual is your best guide.
You'll need to move the shifter to neutral so you should chock a wheel.
Remove 3 bolts at the column to firewall plate. Remove 1 bolt at lower right of column support and the nuts at 2 column mount studs. Carefully lower the column with steering wheel to the seat. Straight down, straight back up again.
A lot of left /right, in/out, up/down ,pressure can cause a variety of problems.