Tunnel ram or no tunnel ram...

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Here’s the TR set up we have floating around for the green car. A couple old downleg 780’s. It may find its way onto the current engine at some point.

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That weight was with a TF. Hemi was iron headed though at that time. Should be a tad lighter this go around. Hopefully I’ve shaved 100-150 off it with the changes I’m making. I did run 4 speeds in it for a minute.
 
Sharktooth grill would look good with this scoop… Will this ever end? ;-)
 
great looking car
looks just like the street/strip car from the late 70s that made me a mopar guy forever 340 w2 nitrous legit 10 second street car that was hauling the mail then

Thank you I wanted to get billet wheels but this would change the look. I became a Mopar guy because of my friends big block Barracuda. Now it’s his sons car.

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OK I had time to test this and observe how it behaves and I’m not too happy with my findings.
Jets were initially 78 square, IAB 76 and carbs utilize 3 circuit fixed emulsion metering blocks by BLP. I need to ask the builder for idle restriction sizes on top of the blocks.
I already tried 70 jets in fronts with 4.5pv without significant change. I also tried radical iab change in iab from 64 size to 86 size.
I was told that jetting has influence on idle mixture in 4150 carbs that’s why I played with jetting. First problem which I disregarded in the beginning is that I can’t setup good idle mixture both in gear and in park. To be exact when I set it to idle well in gear with around 14.2 afr after putting it in park I get 12.2 afr. With 14.2 afr idle is nice and steady, afr is moving by .2 both ways very slowly. Rpm is 900 which pulls about 4-5inHg. When I put it in park afr goes to as low as 12.2 and never reaches 13, rpm jump to 1100-1200. Behavior is pretty much the same with different iab, just different amount of fuel given via mixture screws.
Seems most stable with 82 iab and 1 1/8 out mixture screws but I can’t really say for sure.
Next problem which I didn’t notice with 1st driving is the fact that I can’t get stable cruising. When I get moving it’s 13.5-14.5 afr after short distance it leans out (I assume no more fuel from squirters) to 16-17 afr and car falls on its face. I need to pump gas pedal to keep it running. When I let off the gas it stabilizes. This is below 3000 rpm. When I push it further into rpm range it seems to be better, it’s on the rich side but drives steady and top and power is very good with lots of torque.
This behavior is consistent with square jetting and pv usage. With 4.5 pv I used 70,71 and 72 size jets.
I guess I need 2 circuit tapped metering blocks and expert configuring then right for my car.
Air bleeds for 3rd circuit have no holes, they are just plugged.
When you drive it hard all the time, you don’t really notice the problem ;-)

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That’s a loooong post. I think I said before you NEED power valves on the primary side. And IIRC you said the carb builder said to not use them. Either way, they need to be in there and set the opening at 2 numbers lower than cruise RPM.

The second thing I notice is it looks like all 5 emulsion holes are open. There is no way that will work properly. You need 3 MAX and they need to be in the .024 range if you are going to use 3 emulsion.

Why are the carbs 3 circuit? With all the emulsion (and even when/if you correct that) you don’t need 3 circuits. Unless you have HUGE carbs on a small engine or you are using an oxygenated fuel or you are using E85 or methanol.

You didn’t mention idle feed restriction sizing. Are the IFR’s at the bottom of the metering block or at the top? They should be in the lower position. What size are the idle air bleeds? All those things matter. Or Power Valve Channel restriction sizing.

What size is the Main Air Bleed?

I could be wrong but those carbs need some work. You need to pin all those holes and write them down and post them here so we can see exactly what the tune up is.

This is where “Holleyitis” comes from. That thing should drive like a dream but it won’t with no power valves, emulsion that causes “slugging” which you are seeing in your wildly fluctuating A/F readings and that idiotic 3rd circuit.

Of course, these are just my opinions so take them for what you paid for them.

What a freaking shame.

EDIT: I just read your post again. If the 3rd circuit air bleed is blanked (no hole) then you do NOT have a 3rd circuit and that’s a damned good thing.

All the rest of my post is accurate. I’m just glad you don’t have a 3 circuit carb. That makes this way easier and cheaper to unscrew.


EDIT II: I just went back through this thread a few pages and saw pictures of these carbs. I forgot they have down leg boosters. I even mentioned that annular boosters are probably a better choice.

That said, you have what you have and you’ll probably need a SKOSH more emulsion with down leg booster than you would with annular boosters but certainly not all 5 emulsion holes open.

Hopefully that’s my last edit…
 
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That’s a loooong post. I think I said before you NEED power valves on the primary side. And IIRC you said the carb builder said to not use them. Either way, they need to be in there and set the opening at 2 numbers lower than cruise RPM.

The second thing I notice is it looks like all 5 emulsion holes are open. There is no way that will work properly. You need 3 MAX and they need to be in the .024 range if you are going to use 3 emulsion.

Why are the carbs 3 circuit? With all the emulsion (and even when/if you correct that) you don’t need 3 circuits. Unless you have HUGE carbs on a small engine or you are using an oxygenated fuel or you are using E85 or methanol.

You didn’t mention idle feed restriction sizing. Are the IFR’s at the bottom of the metering block or at the top? They should be in the lower position. What size are the idle air bleeds? All those things matter. Or Power Valve Channel restriction sizing.

What size is the Main Air Bleed?

I could be wrong but those carbs need some work. You need to pin all those holes and write them down and post them here so we can see exactly what the tune up is.

This is where “Holleyitis” comes from. That thing should drive like a dream but it won’t with no power valves, emulsion that causes “slugging” which you are seeing in your wildly fluctuating A/F readings and that idiotic 3rd circuit.

Of course, these are just my opinions so take them for what you paid for them.

What a freaking shame.

EDIT: I just read your post again. If the 3rd circuit air bleed is blanked (no hole) then you do NOT have a 3rd circuit and that’s a damned good thing.

All the rest of my post is accurate. I’m just glad you don’t have a 3 circuit carb. That makes this way easier and cheaper to unscrew.


EDIT II: I just went back through this thread a few pages and saw pictures of these carbs. I forgot they have down leg boosters. I even mentioned that annular boosters are probably a better choice.

That said, you have what you have and you’ll probably need a SKOSH more emulsion with down leg booster than you would with annular boosters but certainly not all 5 emulsion holes open.

Hopefully that’s my last edit…
With and without power valves it drives pretty much the same.
Carbs came with 76 iab and I also tried using 64, 82, 86 to see what happens. Wanted to get more turns on mixture screws hoping to stabilize the idle.
I will take better photos of the metering block, but it seems 3 of 5 holes are functional. There are no restrictors down low, only on the top and there is a restrictor in main body.
These metering blocks are used by BLP with power valves as they are in their weekend warrior carburetors.
This is it: BLP Fixed emulsion 3-circuit metering block BLP Fixed emulsion metering block [ 51701B-5R-FE ] - $53.95 : BLP, Xtreme Performance Made In USA

I really don’t know why they are 3 circuit. This is how they were built. Before I bought them I asked the builder if I can street drive with them, he said yes but I assume it’s my English that’s the problem because I heard they were built for racing last time we talked.
I used his advice regarding setting them up.

I know you suggested annular boosters but I think only TMC uses them. BLP, APD, Bigs, Thumper all use downleg which makes things more difficult especially where I am. My access to parts is not existent, all needs to be imported half way across the world with 3 weeks of waiting minimum and I’m taxed to oblivion. 1500$ carb bought in USA becomes 2400$ carburetor after shipping and taxes.
I jumped on these, because with used stuff you sometimes can avoid import tax and I lucked out this time.
I figured if they are essentially BLP I can change all I need in the process to of making them work well on my car.
Also frankly these are expensive carbs so I expected more effort put into metering blocks. I didn’t expect practically off shelf stuff used.
Now I need to either get tapped blocks and set them up with good advice of someone experienced or order finished blocks from someone knowledgeable. I like working on my stuff but every mistake delays this thing working well for another 3 weeks…
I went thru so much crap because of this car that’s sometimes I think how do I still go on with this. I’m literally hated by most neighbors because of noise and smell. Would be nice if the thing at least run good enough to make me not give a damn about all the enemies I made having it here.
I’m sure it can work well eventually but I hoped for something better especially after asking the builder about them before money changed hands.

The good thing is power, I really see that once I setup this stuff right, the car will work much better.
 
That’s a loooong post. I think I said before you NEED power valves on the primary side. And IIRC you said the carb builder said to not use them. Either way, they need to be in there and set the opening at 2 numbers lower than cruise RPM.

The second thing I notice is it looks like all 5 emulsion holes are open. There is no way that will work properly. You need 3 MAX and they need to be in the .024 range if you are going to use 3 emulsion.

Why are the carbs 3 circuit? With all the emulsion (and even when/if you correct that) you don’t need 3 circuits. Unless you have HUGE carbs on a small engine or you are using an oxygenated fuel or you are using E85 or methanol.

You didn’t mention idle feed restriction sizing. Are the IFR’s at the bottom of the metering block or at the top? They should be in the lower position. What size are the idle air bleeds? All those things matter. Or Power Valve Channel restriction sizing.

What size is the Main Air Bleed?

I could be wrong but those carbs need some work. You need to pin all those holes and write them down and post them here so we can see exactly what the tune up is.

This is where “Holleyitis” comes from. That thing should drive like a dream but it won’t with no power valves, emulsion that causes “slugging” which you are seeing in your wildly fluctuating A/F readings and that idiotic 3rd circuit.

Of course, these are just my opinions so take them for what you paid for them.

What a freaking shame.

EDIT: I just read your post again. If the 3rd circuit air bleed is blanked (no hole) then you do NOT have a 3rd circuit and that’s a damned good thing.

All the rest of my post is accurate. I’m just glad you don’t have a 3 circuit carb. That makes this way easier and cheaper to unscrew.


EDIT II: I just went back through this thread a few pages and saw pictures of these carbs. I forgot they have down leg boosters. I even mentioned that annular boosters are probably a better choice.

That said, you have what you have and you’ll probably need a SKOSH more emulsion with down leg booster than you would with annular boosters but certainly not all 5 emulsion holes open.

Hopefully that’s my last edit…
I tried sending you pm but your inbox is full.
 
Ok, look at the BLP 3 circuit block you posted and look at yours. Two different part numbers.

If you really have a 3rd circuit, there should be a brass tube sticking into the venturi. If there isn’t one, it’s a 2 circuit carb.

Lots of guys use annular boosters. BLP sells them. I get mine from Mark Whitener who is Lightning Carbs. The annular booster (in my opinion) is the best option for most anything with a cold intake.

One of the reasons you are changing bleeds and not getting any changes is the emulsion stack you have. I can’t see from the pictures but unless 2 of the holes holes are not drilled through to the well you have all 5 of them open. You need to pin them to see what size they are and how many are open. If you don’t have a pin gauge set you can use drill bits to get the exact size of the holes.

I know it’s all the rage (still after it’s been proven it’s hard to beat a ”conventional” emulsion stack) to run all that emulsion but it causes what is called “slugging”.

Its what happens when you have a straw and you are trying to suck the last little bit of soda or whatever out of the bottom. You’ll get some soda and then some air and then some soda and then some air.

Thats whats happening with your emulsion right now. The booster pulls a “slug” of fuel and the it gets a “slug” of air and that continues on.

Its also what when you turn on a garden hose and you get some water and then some air. Until all the air is purged from the hose you keep getting slugs of water and then slugs of air.

In your system you never purge all the air because the emulsion is open to the Main Air Bleed.

I know it’s difficult and extremely expensive to buy stuff from the states. That really sucks. At this point, I don‘t think you have 3 circuit carbs and that’s a good thing.

Once you get your holes sized and mapped it’s pretty easy to change brass and block some holes. But we need to know what you are starting with first.

It sounds like T slot restricters are already in the main body so that’s good. We need to know what size they are as well.

Once we know that it’s simply a matter of giving you a good baseline tuneup to get you started and then your tuning changes will make a difference.
 
Those are 2 circ blocks, I use That exact block all the time. Agree your emulsion is jacked. Being multiple carbs I’d go down to only 1 and 4 at .026-.028. The lean symptom you describe at low rpm may be too much transfer slot restriction. Like RB said and I think I did previously, you need to break the carbs down and pin everything. You need a know what you have to determine where you go. The carbs sound completely out of whack except for WOT which is typical. I do like annular carbs myself as well but, I don’t see any reason the downlegs won’t work well, they just need work. You need to invest in both sizes of numbered drill bits and order up some brass 6-32 , 8-32 , and maybe 10-32 brass set screws 3/16 long. Those are going to become you best friend.
 
Ok, look at the BLP 3 circuit block you posted and look at yours. Two different part numbers.

If you really have a 3rd circuit, there should be a brass tube sticking into the venturi. If there isn’t one, it’s a 2 circuit carb.

Lots of guys use annular boosters. BLP sells them. I get mine from Mark Whitener who is Lightning Carbs. The annular booster (in my opinion) is the best option for most anything with a cold intake.

One of the reasons you are changing bleeds and not getting any changes is the emulsion stack you have. I can’t see from the pictures but unless 2 of the holes holes are not drilled through to the well you have all 5 of them open. You need to pin them to see what size they are and how many are open. If you don’t have a pin gauge set you can use drill bits to get the exact size of the holes.

I know it’s all the rage (still after it’s been proven it’s hard to beat a ”conventional” emulsion stack) to run all that emulsion but it causes what is called “slugging”.

Its what happens when you have a straw and you are trying to suck the last little bit of soda or whatever out of the bottom. You’ll get some soda and then some air and then some soda and then some air.

Thats whats happening with your emulsion right now. The booster pulls a “slug” of fuel and the it gets a “slug” of air and that continues on.

Its also what when you turn on a garden hose and you get some water and then some air. Until all the air is purged from the hose you keep getting slugs of water and then slugs of air.

In your system you never purge all the air because the emulsion is open to the Main Air Bleed.

I know it’s difficult and extremely expensive to buy stuff from the states. That really sucks. At this point, I don‘t think you have 3 circuit carbs and that’s a good thing.

Once you get your holes sized and mapped it’s pretty easy to change brass and block some holes. But we need to know what you are starting with first.

It sounds like T slot restricters are already in the main body so that’s good. We need to know what size they are as well.

Once we know that it’s simply a matter of giving you a good baseline tuneup to get you started and then your tuning changes will make a difference.
Actually when you look at the photo at BLP website you will see that I have exactly the block I posted link to. I confirmed that with BLP as well.
I will post photos of the block to show holes in stacks. I see which ones go thru when I blow air thru them.
 
Ok, yours are slightly different part number, don’t visually see the difference on the face. Could be an issue.

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Those are 2 circ blocks, I use That exact block all the time. Agree your emulsion is jacked. Being multiple carbs I’d go down to only 1 and 4 at .026-.028. The lean symptom you describe at low rpm may be too much transfer slot restriction. Like RB said and I think I did previously, you need to break the carbs down and pin everything. You need a know what you have to determine where you go. The carbs sound completely out of whack except for WOT which is typical. I do like annular carbs myself as well but, I don’t see any reason the downlegs won’t work well, they just need work. You need to invest in both sizes of numbered drill bits and order up some brass 6-32 , 8-32 , and maybe 10-32 brass set screws 3/32 long. Those are going to become you best friend.
Please have a look at this photo.
I will post better photos of blocks today.
Not only BLP said these are 3 circuit but carbs builder as well, he said and I quote “there is hidden 3rd circuit in these carbs” whatever this means…

I also wanted annular carbs but frankly whoever I talked was surprised why I’m asking about it and putting any pressure in having these boosters. I made some calls believe me.
I’m not saying it’s a bad idea, just giving you what I heard from APD, Bigs, Pro Systems and others.
TMC uses annular as standard and these carbs were what I really wanted till this pair came up for sale.

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Yours are typical 2 circuit blocks worth adjustable emulsion. All holes come tapped from BLP. I spent an hour on the phone with them yesterday.

Nevermind, just read your whole post. Time for some new blocks. I’d scrap that whole 3 circuit idea, I know some guys think they are great. You don’t need it in dual 4150’s.

I haven’t encountered a 3 circ 4150 yet, I see the main body has the bleeds though. Pretty strange, I’d love to have a better look at the set up just so I understand it better.
 
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Just a thought, can the 3rd circuit be killed on those metering blocks (or main body’s) without affecting the operation of the normal 2 circuits? They can easily be tapped to make adjustable. Probably be my first option. If not then a new set of 2 circ blocks.
 
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