UGH!!! Starter Issue. HELP!

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Old Country

Old Country

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Hey 67DART273, and anyone else that's electrically savy; I need your electrical wisdom!! Anyone...?

As you'll recall I originally had a minor starter wiring issue ("Mystery Wires" thread a couple weeks ago). Everyones gave good input which ultimately fix'd the wiring mess and she cranked over just fine. I'm still not at the stage to start it yet (radiator isn't installed) but getting very close.

A few days ago I decided to spin her over and check for leaks at the oil pressure tube to the gauge. The spark plugs are out, so she spun great. First spin was for approx 8 seconds, and no oil pressure. Repeated this for another 8 seconds, and still no pressure. The third time I got 64 psi within 4 seconds. I got out, checked for leaks, and all looked fine, no leaks.

I decided to do it one more time and within 2 seconds had oil pressure almost immediately...BUT then suddenly it sounded like the starter let go or disengaged (free spinning) but the key was still in the start mode..? The engine stopped spinning, but the starter was still whining.

I investigated, found nothing, and the starter was warm but not hot. Then I noticed the starter gear was still engaged with the flywheel teeth...? (Bell housing bottom dust cover is still off) So I used a screw driver and popped it loose (took no effort). Turned the ign key and again the starter just spins, but the engine doesn't turn...? Got under there again and the gear was again engaged with the flywheel teeth. I used my finger this time and it popped loose, snapping back into it''s normal dis-engaged position.

What the heck have I done...? Did the starter burn out or break just from THAT..? Just from spinning the engine over...AND with no plugs..? It's a mini starter roughly 1600 miles old and is used on Durango's / Jeep's...etc.

I jumped the starter relay with a screw driver (crossed the two big posts) and the same thing: starter spins but the engine doesn't move and that gear just stays slightly hung-up with the flywheel. Perhaps they all do that to some level, because I can't imagine it staying that way for long with that flywheel spinning and engine vibration. Just don't know.

I took the starter to a shop, they stuck it in a machine, said the starter was fine, passed all the tests AND the little gear was spinning like crazy.... so what the hell...? Why won't it do that on the engine? :-(

In order to combat the gear teeth not disengaing, "I ignorantly" ground away what material I safely could from the bolt holes and on the starter snout to allow a little slop and move the starter slightly away from the flywheel. My efforts made very little difference, it still gets hung (sort of) and doesn't spin AT ALL.

NOTHING I have done has effected the situation positively AT ALL... so I'm basically out of answers.

PLEASE someone save my sorry stupid butt... :sad3:

This must be very simple to someone reading this, so PLEASE share your wisdom.

1) Starter went bad..?.. even though the test machine said otherwise..?
2) Bad Starter Relay...?
3) Bad day...? yes!
 
I have yet to use any of the mini starters. I'm not aware of any "fit" issues, other than the usual--something bent, broken, or dirt, debri, etc

Sounds to me like something wrong in the starter

If the solenoid is pulling the gear (drive) out or if the gear drive itself is AFU. The "gear drive" (sometimes called a Bendix) has an over-run clutch/ ratchet so the engine does not wind up the starter motor when the engine starts.
 
Id say the gear reduction gear prolly slippin on its shaft (maybe sheared pin?)
Starter shop dont bolt the starter to an engine so this prob wont showup.
However, when bench tested, the gear still has enough "press fit" tightness to make it seem like its workin ok. When bolted to engine it slip, especially if sloppy tolerance cause starter gear to hang up in flywheel> Jus my 2 cents.
 
omahamoparguy said:
Id say the gear reduction gear prolly slippin on its shaft (maybe sheared pin?)
Starter shop dont bolt the starter to an engine so this prob wont showup.
However, when bench tested, the gear still has enough "press fit" tightness to make it seem like its workin ok. When bolted to engine it slip, especially if sloppy tolerance cause starter gear to hang up in flywheel> Jus my 2 cents.
Click to expand...

X2, I was going to say that they probably only ran a bench test and did not check the starter under a load.

sounds like the starter took a crap....
 
Get another starter. If this is a freshly rebuilt engine prolonged or repeated turning isn't good for it. it needs to run at around 2000 rpm for the rings to seat properly.
 
Okay, there went $100+ for a new starter, all looks great, turn the key... the same damn thing, although this starter sounds quite stronger.

I turned the engine over by hand (crank snout), feels nice an smooth, turns easily with no plugs, BUT the starter(s) will not turn the flywheel.... they engage the flywheel but no joy. It spun just fine while I was testing the oil pressure (see above)..but then 'something' just sort of let go, stopped turning the engine and just spun the starter...EVEN this new one, same thing.

I have no clue.
Screw driver on the relay and she spins the same as with the ign key. Drive gear engages the flyweeh just fine and when I turn the crank I can here the lil gear pop back into it's retracted position.

I have NOOOO clue. This is a REAL show stopper. :sad3:


Okay: We know it is not the starter, nor the starter relay and we know it was spinning this engine just fine with THIS wiring as is... The fuseable link isn't melted or look any different... There was no smoke like I fried some wire...but there are only two wires to the starter anyway.

Lord I have a splitting headache. :-(
If anyone has a clue, or advice... please help.
 
Does the flywheel spin when the starter cranks? Could the flywheel have come loose from the crank? Did you use the correct flywheel bolts?
 
I figured it out.... by accident. Are you guys ready for this..? After all this, all the great suggestions and brain storming and a new starter... you won't imagine.

I got under there for the last time before I pulled the new starter off and had the wife crank it over one more time so I could see exactly what was happening with the starter. AND.... guess what.. it's not the starter(s).

Did you say flywheel..? Hmmm...

Try the "RING GEAR" on the flywheel !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :angry5:

That puppy just spun round and round the edge of that flywheel sweet as ya please... and that starter just sang as it spun.

Can you believe the crap these cars put us through!? I've never heard of such non-sense... bloody ring gear?.. RU kidding me!!!! What a joke!

So I'll add about four or six carefully, precisely and evenly spaced 3/8" spots welds to weld that sucker to the flywheel and that'll be the end of this latest saga.

IF I would have just laid under there looking at THAT the first time this happened a few days back, lord... :sign3:
 
ouch....not sure I would trust welding it.......you get it out of balance in the least bit and you will end up with a vibration and may wipe out bearings and toast your engine.

your call.

glad you go it figured out though!

hard believing the welds broke on the ring gear ! if I remember correctly they have a pretty narly weld on them to begin with.
 
Hi ya Duster Dude.

My flywheel is one of those light weight steel ones, and the rings are press fit vs welded. Their cut a tad smaller than the OD of the host flywheel, and then heated, pressed-on and once cool is suppose to be tighter than a ducks behind.

Well... this one has obviously seen some abuse sometime in its past and has given up the grip. I've no history on it, but did have it surfaced and it miked-out just fine. The ring looks new, with zero wear on the teeth, so I figured it was just used in a race car (seen hardly any starts vs a daily driver). I'm now thinking whoever had it before had a new ring installed.

The spot welds will be kept VERY minimal in size and number, as I too have concerns about tossing the balance off. It's either that or tear the whole Mary-Ann apart to get the flywheel off... which is a VERY bitter pill at this stage (might as well pull the motor).

It'll be ok as long as they're very small, evenly spaced and kept to a minimum (four). If the welds break, THEN I'll pull it all apart...ugh, but not before. :thumrigh:
 
That has got to be the strangest, badluck, craziest thing that I have ever heard of. I have never ever heard of a ring gear coming loose on the flywheel. Wow, I will have to remember that. Good job catching it!!
 
If you have a lightweight flywheel, it's probably aluminum. ALL ring gears are pressed, not welded.

You have no choice. Get a new gear, or get a different flywheel.

Throw the flywheel in the freezer for awhile. Then lay it out of bricks/ concret block, and heat the outside of the gear with a torch. It should almost fall right off. Might have to help it by tapping around the edge with a punch and hammer.

However, since it has slipped, it may have tore up the flywheel enough that a new one won't hold, either. If this was a fairly new flywheel, I'd be crying to whoever sold it to you.
 
My flywheel is a 30# Mopar Performance 'steel' jobber, and it came on the car project. I had it resurfaced since I was installing a new clutch/Pressure plate. The ring gave no signs that it was nearly toast!!

To gat at & replace this flywheel at this stage... ugh..I would have rather nailed my tongue to a board than dismantle everything it took me 8 long evenings and a full weekend to do. BUT spot welding the ring to the flywheel had just waaaay too much bad ju-ju all over it...from every source and contact I made... just too many unknowns and horror stories, true or not.

BUT THEN.. I got into a few racing sights out of Austrelia, not sure how, and in there I found that this ring gear loosening apparently happens more often then here in the states (go figure?). What they do is 'PIN' the ring to the flywheel, and with great success and no vibration issues, according to MANY folk. DOH.... who'd have thunk?!

Here's the recipe:
First confirm the ring isn't cracked, split or broken. Then determine the amount of teeth and divide that by 5, 6, 7 or 8... whatever divides-out evenly, which in my case was '5' (130 teeth divided by 5 = 26).

Here's what I just finished doing (one pin at a time):
Tap the entire circumferance of the ring to ensure it's as seated and even as possible on the flywheel. Drill a hole slightly smaller than 1/8" in the valley beside every 26th tooth and into the flywheel 0.250". Using either hardened roll pins, 1/8" machine pins (my choice) and 1/8" drill rod; cut pin to the exact length and roll in JB Weld or some other automotive epoxy (added insurance) and drive the pin into the hole, seating at the base. Pin should be very snug but NOT super tight, or you could split the ring! The pin should be slightly sunken in the hole, then fill/cover the hole with the epoxy, sealing the pin. Once hardened, that pin isn't going anywhere. Dress out the tooth valleys or proper contour the next day.

Balancing..? Drill all the holes 'exactly' the same depth, custom cut all pins to 'exactly' the same length = same amount of material was removed from each hole and the pins being installed are all exactly the same length and weight... thus no balance fubar.

Recall that the ring has very little load placed on it, and what load there is is only there while cranking the engine. Those five pins equal a very substantial combined pin dia: 0.125" dia X 5 pins = 0.625" or well over a single 1/2" dia machinist pin. Can you imagine the kind of force it would take to shear a .625" hardened machinist pin...? Ain't gonna happen by just a starter. No fuss, no muss, no welding, no warpage, no flywheel weakness AND no exploding flywheels or other nightmares. :thumrigh:

Now... IF I had a large shop, air tools and piles of tools and money and time AND a couple helpers, I'd already have a NEW steel flywheel on the car. BUT as it is, that's not where I'm at... so I did what would serve my needs with what I have, and am satisfied it is a safe, efficient and productive "repair".

When I pull that engine again someday (please lordy not anytime soon), that flywheel will be quickly scrapped.:!:
 
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