Vague Steering, How to improve?

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Kent mosby

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Currently I have a stock manual steering box in my 1973 scamp with a big block motor. It is 2.5 turns to lock each way so I assume that is 24:1. I do not mind the ratio but I can turn the steering wheel 45 degrees without much turn of the car at speed. Very vague feeling. The entire front end is new with a kit from Dr Diff with
2 NEW powder-coated upper control arms with bushings and ball joints INSTALLED
2 Lower ball joints
2 Outer tie rod ends
2 Inner tie rod ends
2 Tie-rod adjusting sleeves with clamps
2 Lower control arm bushings
2 pairs, strut rod bushings (2-piece improved design).

Is this normal to have so much vagueness in the steering? What are the options to reduce the vagueness. I am not going to do autocross. Most of the time on the street and some drag strip stuff. I have the camber at -.25 both sides, caster +2.5 and 3.0 with essentially 0 toe-in. Is this a sign that the steering box is worn and needs to be rebuilt/replaced? What can I do to reduce the sloppiness of the steering wheel?
 
First thing I would suspect with all those new parts is a steering box LOOSE ON THE MOUNTINGS. This does happen

You need a helper, wife, etc, or if you get ahold of me I might. (Broken ribs LOL) Anyhow, with someone working wheel side to side, get a light and get dirty. Start at coupler, look carefully at upper shaft and coupler for play between the two, then play between coupler body and box shaft.

Then look at pitman and steering shaft. Almost exactly as steering shaft moves, pitman should follow with very little delay Look for play in the lower bearing where the pitman shaft exits the box. Side to side or up/ down.

Now get underneath, look at pitman shaft and pitman, then center link of pitman and end joint. In other words, one step at a time look at every single joined piece that moves in relation with other. Look for play and especially up/ down movement of idler arm.

Tires can have a tremendous effect. Cheap bias tires can "feel" as if they are adding play as can "drag race skinnies"

Look in the shop manual for the procedure on box adjustment.

I did basic simple stuff to mine before I tore it apart, and it turned the thing into a different car. Rebuilt front end, stiffer T bars and front anti sway bar made tremendous handling difference

If you are running an odd combo of mismatched front/ rear tires, and or problems such as rear shackles can, believe it or not, "transfer" the problem to seemingly a front problem.
 
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Thanks Del,
I will have a look at everything. I have a lift that will allow me good access. I did not replace the idler arm. I never thought about adjusting the box. I will run through all components in order and look for slop. I will post what I see and go from there. I have a FSM and will look at adjusting the box, being certain that I am centered before making adjustments.
 
I would add the 0 toe could increase wandering feel.

My 67 dart 24:1, 318,000 mile warn out front suspension has only a few deg of steering wheel turn before resistance at a stop. While driving it is more like herding then steering. But it tracks straight so it is not a problem.

It did feel better after an idler replacement.

But follow the steps 67Dart273 outlined. It is exactly what I would have recomended
 
You gotta problem somewhere. Bad steering coupler, pittman arm, idler arm......something somewhere is bad. You need to get under there and check it out. These old girls never were road race queens, but they do handle very nicely for an old car when everything is in good shape.
 
Post 2 says it all. You have a lift . If the tires are hanging it is harder to find the play. I like the weight on the ground. It make any play show easier. On my Dart I found a bad steering shaft to box coupler. Then found my Box loosened and was moving. Lastly I did get some play out by adjusting the box. All this after I changed Bushings and all Balljoints and steering linkage. Good luck.
 
You MUST do this with weight on the tires. Even checking ball joints.......outlined in the shop manual........means weight on the tires / and / or/ weight on the LCA
 
4 post lift. Weight will be on tires. I will check it out tonight.
 
The 0 toe is a problem. Not saying it's the only problem, but it is a problem.

When your wheels are rolling down the road they tend to pull all the slack out of the rest of your steering system, tie rods, etc. The tie rods do have some play, and even a small amount x 4 different tie rods ends can be significant. That's why toe-in is specified in the alignment. The wheels start with a little toe-in, so when you're rolling down the road and the tires pull the slack out of the system your tires are actually straight ahead or close to it.

With zero toe-in, when you're rolling down the road you probably have a little bit of toe-out, which will make the car feel flighty and loose.

With all the other new components, I would be looking at the steering box moving on the K frame or the steering coupler as Del suggested. Another possibility is that the steering box mount on the K frame is cracked, I had that issue on my '74. Steering was vague, seemed like a lot of input was necessary before the wheels moved. Had a helper turn the wheel while I looked at the steering box, the entire steering box and mount was moving and opening up a crack in the weld where the steering box mount was welded to the K frame. Factory weld had failed.

Dana67Dart said:
For what ever it is worth i just tested and I'm getting 5.75 turns lock to lock., 24:1
Click to expand...

He's measuring from center to lock in each direction, and probably not counting part of the on-center dead spot.

Stock 24:1 is about 5 1/2 turns, 16:1 is close to 3 1/2, and the aftermarket 20:1 is about 4 1/2.
 
Something else to look at is your steering coupler. Not sure about a 73 model, but when I rebuilt my 66 coupler it made a huge difference in the feel of the steering wheel.
 
Here is what I found. To be clear, when parked, I can easily move the steering wheel 45 degrees. Call it 22.5 right and 22.5 left before meeting resistance that is more than “ finger pressure”. The coupler, box, front suspension are all tight, idler arm as well. What I see as flexing or moving without moving the pitman arm is the sector shaft. Small leaking of lube at that sight. This YouTube video shows what I see.
How to proceed next?
 
Kent mosby said:
Here is what I found. To be clear, when parked, I can easily move the steering wheel 45 degrees. Call it 22.5 right and 22.5 left before meeting resistance that is more than “ finger pressure”. The coupler, box, front suspension are all tight, idler arm as well. What I see as flexing or moving without moving the pitman arm is the sector shaft. Small leaking of lube at that sight. This YouTube video shows what I see.
How to proceed next?
Click to expand...


Looks like it's time to rebuild the steering box, that slop would be coming from the bottom bushing or bearing (depending on the style of the steering box).
 
While that is "something" I'm fairly sure it does not account for that much "slop" in the wheel

(Once I thought I was wrong but I was mistaken LOL)
 
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67Dart273 said:
While that is "something" I'm fairly sure it does not account for that much "slop" in the wheel

(Once I thought I was wrong but I was mistaken LOL)
Click to expand...

Yeah, I agree with that too. It shouldn't be there at all, but that's not 45° of play either. Although if the box is that worn out at the bottom then it may be worn out that badly internally as well, which could account for more slop.

It may not be the only problem, but it is a problem.
 
Thank you for all the help. I will get a new one. I do not want to rebuild one. Just need to decide which one is best for my purpose. Street driving and trips down the track occasionally. Is the 16:1 PST box the one to get? I have a 15 inch steering wheel and I don't mind the extra effort. I have 195/65-15s on the front
 
Boy I don't know. How tough is the steering now with that B in there? You might expect a lot more steering effort. Frankly, I was more than happy with the handling on mine/ stock box after I got it all together. I was however running some wide 14" on the front. If I live long enough it will have 'Stang Bullitt 17's on the front "I hope."

I would not want much more effort on mine, but my arms aren't what they once were.

What you might want to do is spend "less" on a good used box and see where you stand first
 
Kent mosby said:
Thank you for all the help. I will get a new one. I do not want to rebuild one. Just need to decide which one is best for my purpose. Street driving and trips down the track occasionally. Is the 16:1 PST box the one to get? I have a 15 inch steering wheel and I don't mind the extra effort. I have 195/65-15s on the front
Click to expand...

I don’t think you’d have a problem with the 16:1 box with 195’s and +2.5* of caster.

But I may not be the best person to ask, I run a 16:1 manual box with 275/35/18’s and +6.5*’s of caster and I don’t think that’s a problem either. I use my car as my daily driver too.
 
I will get the FSM out this weekend to look at how to do this
 
My best guess is that you will be able to take some of the slop out by adjusting, but if it's been driven that way for a long time, the gears (and bushings) are probably so worn out as to need a complete rebuild.
I got a 16:1 box for my Dart (also B engined) :) and 195/70R14 tires in the front. It's only really heavy when standing still. Otherwise it feels very firm and responsive, like a go-kart.
 
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