Want to build a 77 360 suggestions please

Discussion in 'Small Block Mopar Engine' started by Steve Agrella, May 16, 2018 at 5:46 PM.

  1. Steve Agrella

    Steve Agrella Well-Known Member

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    i just acquired a 74 Duster with a 360, It did have a 318’, I want to build a 400+ hp street motor, any suggestions on which way to go would be greatly appreciated.
    It has a mild cam and a a 360 Edelbrock manifold with a 750 Edelbrock carb.
    The engine is pretty much gutless.
    I like the 268 Voodoo cam, would like to build around that will probably also run FItech injection on it.
    No LS for me
     
  2. Abodybomber

    Abodybomber Breaking street machines , since 1983.....:)

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    What compression, gear , tire size ,and transmission do you intend to use ?
    Cam choice ,is best left ,for last.
     
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    • Steve Agrella

      Steve Agrella Well-Known Member

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      Compression 9.5
      Gears 343 81/4 rear end
      Tires rear 275-60r-15
      Front 245-60r-15
       
    • 72Dart6pack

      72Dart6pack Harder Better Faster Stronger.

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      I built this from a 1977 360. It's now a 408
      6 Pack.

      IMG_24941.jpg
       
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      • Steve Agrella

        Steve Agrella Well-Known Member

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        That is a bad ass MoFo, May I ask what it cost and do you have a build list you would care to share
         
      • 72Dart6pack

        72Dart6pack Harder Better Faster Stronger.

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        With 6 Pack setup included. $8200.
         
      • 72Dart6pack

        72Dart6pack Harder Better Faster Stronger.

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        Just something I threw together. Lol

        IMG_25071.jpg

        IMG_24961.jpg
         
      • Steve Agrella

        Steve Agrella Well-Known Member

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        • 318willrun

          318willrun Stomper 4x4... we kept energizer in business FABO Gold Member

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          What's gutless? What is your goal for the car? Let me explain. A 360 with a mild cam and 4bbl, if tuned properly, should be around 325 hp gross? So if this is "gutless", and you think adding 75 hp will go from "gutless" to "world beater", then I would step back and access. Is there a certain E.T. you are hoping to achieve that would make you happy? Tell us a little more....
           
        • Wyrmrider

          Wyrmrider Well-Known Member

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          Hi Steve a cam change is not going to do it bottom end will feel even more gutless
          describe your headers
          since you are going to need new pistons I would
          go to the pic a part sale memorial day weekend and grab a 360 with 308 heads (or a late model magnum motor from a wreck)
          get a 408 rotating assembly as you are going to do the rods and buy pistons anyway
          build your new short block (pump gas friendly)
          you will be there with 308 heads and when you get your inheritance you can get some aluminum heads and make really big power
          re-read abodybomber's post- you think about a cam and do spring seats and cut down the guides but do pick cam last- and Lunati is one of the few off the shelf choices
          keep the build pump gas friendly- the extra cubes helps that
          then do a quick engine swap with your current 360 which you can keep as a spare or sell
          your recent purchase has most likely been rebuilt and you have no idea what's inside
          I'd do two things- compression check and report (does it run without pinging on regular gas?)
          and check the timing chain if you have a valve cover off you can check the cam lift and report -- cam could be retarded what ignition, have you done the dist curve?
           
        • Dfr360cuda

          Dfr360cuda Well-Known Member

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          I am doing the same thing but...
          In slow motion
           
        • AJ/FormS

          AJ/FormS 367 FormS clone 3.09-1.92-1.40-1.09-.78od 3.55s

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          Here's my recipe, what I built, edit;my combo;
          zero decked, 63cc closed chamber aluminums, a fast-rate 223@.050 FTH, headers, AG, and 750DP.
          That will be 11.0Scr/9.0Dcr/186psi/164VP . IDK how much HP that might make, but I can guarantee that you will not be disappointed running the biggest fattest street tires that will fit in the stock tubs. I guarantee it.
          If a stick car, you can run a fast-rate 230@.050FTH ..
          Run the lift up as high as you can within the limits of the heads.
          Check your piston to valve clearance carefully.
          Do all the oiling mods
          Edit;I Run 7000rpm springs and I recommend a 6800 rev-limiter, and I got a decent 8000rpm 270* sweep tach.
          Get your valve geometry set up right.
          Make sure your pulleys all line up perfectly.
          _______________________________
          With an automatic,Run any 340/360TC you want/have, and at least a 3.23.. If you want to optimize your zero to 60 in second gear, run 4.56s and a small diameter tire, a 3000/3200TC and hang on tight. The right gear to optimize it in first gear is 3.23.
          With a stick, it don't much matter, but the 3.55 is pretty nice. The optimum gear for zero to 60s are 4.30z for second, and 3.23s in first, 3.55s won't make it, unless you're like me.... just give her to 7000 and see if she hangs together.
          Sell that 318fully dressed as it is.
          _____________
          I hadn't heard of a 3.43 rear gear, but if you really got one, run it with a SG, a tight one, cuz she's gonna need the two-wheel drive.
          _________________
          Oh wait, you want to keep the 318? lol. here we go again.
          Wyrmrider nailed it, go stroker, but I'd be inclined to stop at 3.79 stroke.
          Almost the only way to make pressure with a street 318 is to stroke it, or supercharge it.
          IMO, factory-stock aluminum heads on any 160psi engine are kindof a waste, of money, cuz they will easily support 195psi and perhaps more. That's 22% more pressure, than the 160 safe iron pressure. At 185psi you can put any streetcam in that hummer, whereas in the iron equivalent engine, the bottom goes soft in a hurry.
          The aluminum heads may still outperform almost any factory iron head you put on there at 160 vs 160psi, but you're spending a lotta money to break even and on a 318cid engine, it's pretty hard to affordably get the psi up high enough to take optimum advantage of them.
          Some guys have bored their EARLY 318s out to 4.00, making them 340s.
          ___________________
          now a 3.79 stroker makes a 370 cuber, and it only takes 75.7cc Total chamber volume to make an 11/1 engine, to use aluminum heads optimally. That's too easy. Practically a slam-dunk. The above 223 cam will fall in with 61*ICA and make the 11/1 Scr into a 9.0Dcr/187psi/VP of 166, just like the 360 described in the opening paragraph. Compare that to the 318 factory VP of about 114, and yours if still at stock compression ratio,a VP of "gutless", around 102 with a small cam.
          Ok, to be fair, to run that same 223 cam with iron heads, and an ICA of 61* your 318cid engine would need to be at 9.8Scr to maximize the pressure at 160psi .............................. and the VP would come in at; wait for it........ 124 about the same as a stock 360 2bbl...IIRC.
          Here's the thing; if you decide the 223 is too small in your iron headed 318, the next bigger cam may drop your pressure to 155, and VP back to stock 318 status at 113..
          Whereas with the aluminums and 187psi, the pressure would still be pretty good at 178, and the VP still at 133, about the same as a factory 340(134).
          _________________
          Read about VP here;V/P Index Calculation
          IMO, people don't put enough importance on this VP thing. While it's true you can just put a higher stall TC in your combo, to get past that soft zone; that does nothing for engine efficiency. And it make downshifts pretty much mandatory to blast off likeddy-split. And really, if you are already putting pistons into your engine, a couple of hours playing the calculator, can make the difference between a rip-snorting combo, and a gutless pos.
          And with the possibility of gas soon becoming very expensive, IDK if you can afford to overlook efficiency. I mean we went thru that once in the 80s. When cheap Arab oil dries up, the USA will have to start selling your home-country gas, and you know nothing made in the USA is cheap!
          ______________________________
          Oh wait, it currently has a 360 in it! Well then, back to the top: My combo

          Edited for Rumble
          I run 7000 plus springs and .020 preload, so that when I miss a shift and see the tach passing 8000... on it's way back down..... I can just jam it back into third and carry on like nothing ever happened. It beats the heck out of replacing all the valves. Sure I couldof installed a rev-limiter, but why?; my engine doesn't care.
          And if I had 4.56 and an automatic; at the top of third I might be looking for another gear, it happens. And with an auto, you know I won't be lifting.. so that's why the recommendation followed.
          OP asked for suggestions. I offered my recipe, cuz there is not one thing I would change. IMO, it's got to be as close to the ultimate street 360 based combo, as it gets.
          93 in the 1/8 calculates, IIRC to 433 hp,at my weight that day. I drove there, I ran it 4 times, With one completed run. And then,I drove it home.
          That's good enough for me.
           
          Last edited: May 16, 2018 at 9:31 PM
        • Steve Agrella

          Steve Agrella Well-Known Member

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          I’m not sure what the condition of this engine is in, I was told
          it was rebuilt 12,000 miles ago, not sure looking at the paint on the motor not sure that really happened or not.
          The motor right now sputters and misfires when I get on it, checked the timing its at 12 degrees ideling at 900 rpm ??
          I would like to get into low 13s with this car
           
        • mopowers

          mopowers Well-Known Member

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          Are you sure the compression ratio is 9.5:1? If you're going by what the book says, it's likely way lower, which may explain the 'gutless' comment. What pistons are in the motor?
           
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          • Steve Agrella

            Steve Agrella Well-Known Member

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            I’m not sure what the condition of this engine is in, I was told
            it was rebuilt 12,000 miles ago, not sure looking at the paint on the motor that’s really happened or not.
            The motor right now sputters and misfires when I get on it, checked the timing its at 12 degrees ideling at 900 rpm ??
            I would like to get into the high 12slow 13’s
             
          • Steve Agrella

            Steve Agrella Well-Known Member

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            I’m sorry misunderstood I thought you meant the CR I was shooting for, don’t know I haven’t checked it yet
             
          • rumblefish360

            rumblefish360 so close yet so far away

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            AJ, 7K springs?!?!?!

            ROFLMAO!!!!!
            :rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl:
             
          • rumblefish360

            rumblefish360 so close yet so far away

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            Sputters and misfires?!?! Start with new plugs, wires, cap & rotor.
            Check the state of the carbs tune!
            Readjust the initial timing (vacuum advance hose disconnected and plugged off.) to 15*. 20* max.
            Limit total timing to 52*’s. (Vacuum advance hose attached.)

            Report back what you think then.
             
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            • forphorty

              forphorty Well-Known Member

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              If you haven't seen this already Post your 12 second small block combos My two cents: pushing compression ratio to the (theoretical) limit might gain a little more power but all the math in the world can't account for every possible scenario (heat, bad gas, etc.) on the street. And don't be afraid to put some converter it. Skip right over the 11 inchers and go straight to a 9.5 or 10.
               
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              • crackedback

                crackedback FABO Gold Member FABO Gold Member

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                Initial timing, total and the curve will provide big benefits in how the engine runs. Stock engine like 12* or more initial. Cammed up one even more.

                It takes work to get it right depending on the distributor.
                 
              • AJ/FormS

                AJ/FormS 367 FormS clone 3.09-1.92-1.40-1.09-.78od 3.55s

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                I hear you but my combo has always been happy on 87E10, at up to185psi, since 1999 and well over 100,000 miles.
                Some guys here on FABO have reported running as high as 205psi with aluminum heads, (strokers IIRC), still on pump gas.It would be pretty expensive to run 205psi, and I expect those guys are diligent.185psi with aluminum heads,IMO, is no big thing.
                But I do agree with you as to heat. To that end I built a rock-solid cooling system, and run fresh-cold air to the carb. A 433hp street engine is a fairly serious effort, and to make it a DD as I did, yeah, you gotta pay attention. You will never ever see an electric fan under my hood;ever. Old-school just flat works, and gives me tremendous peace of mind. I haven't given it a thought since about 2001.
                I can't speak to convertors cuz I'm a stick guy since 1970, almost exclusively.
                So why did I say what I did about TCs? Cuz that's how confident I am that my combo has the bottom end goods. I have never ever waited to a certain rpm to floor it. I have never ever had a bog or a hesitation. I have never ever babied the secondaries in to avoid detonation.
                I have a starter gear of 10.97(3.09x3.55) which is a blip it,dump it, and go, deal. I can put the line-loc on, rev it to maybe 1500 guessing, and feed it clutch and throttle til the 295s break loose, then reduce the throttle to maybe 1200/1000 and just let the 295s roll over in a heap of howling. That's always a big hit for my local fans. That little 223 cam used to bust the tires loose in second gear at any speed up to 50/55 with just a foot stomp, with those same 3.55s. And of course once spinning, they are gonna continue until I shift into third. Around town,I pretty much never look at the tach, and stomp it whenever I feel like it.
                If you don't know this; a 1969 440 Magnum calculates to a VP of 156.
                My little 223 cam calculated to 162. With a handle like "forphorty", I'm guessing you know all about how hard that 440 Magnum mighta pulled back in the day, down below 3500 say. Now try to imagine a 367 pulling 4% harder, also below 3500.
                The current 230* cam calculates to 153; this with the only change being a 3* later ICA; 3 measly degrees. But this is still 98% as hard as that BB
                The first cam I had was the 292/108 and it VP'd at 143 even at 11.3Scr, and I thought that was just too doughy for me. I pulled that out almost as fast as I could. Yet 143 is nearly 12% higher than a factory 1969 340(128), and 19% higher than a factory 360 2bbl(120).
                Like I said;
                Edit for forphorty;
                this is not a rebuke or attack on you, merely a recap of my experiences. Your statements in post #19 are all valid, IMO. Also when I say "people", that is people in general, and is not somehow directed at anyone in particular.
                 
                Last edited: May 18, 2018 at 2:44 PM
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                • 318willrun

                  318willrun Stomper 4x4... we kept energizer in business FABO Gold Member

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                  Don't need 400 hp to go high 12's/low 13's. A-body with 3.43 gears will get there with what ya have. Just need to really work with it.
                   
                • rumblefish360

                  rumblefish360 so close yet so far away

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                  Like like like!!!