Weird problem with starter today. Opinons welcomed!

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harrisonm

harrisonm

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So I started my car today and there was a terrible grinding noise coming from under the hood. 69 Barracuda, 340, 4 speed. It didn't sound like knocking rods, so I made a snap decision to leave it running to investigate. It seemed to be running fine, and I saw nothing rubbing, and I was positive it wasn't from the clutch area. So I shut it off. The engine shut off, but the starter motor was still spinning away. That was the noise, the Bendix drive was still engaged while the engine was running. But with the key now in the OFF position, why was the starter still spinning. By the time I grabbed a 1/2 inch wrench and took off a battery cable, the battery was starting to get a bit weak. So I put a charger on it. I was pondering as to whether I had a bad starter relay, a bad starter or, probably least likely, a bad ignition switch. An hour later I hooked the cables back up and it was, of course fine. It started right up, and everything worked fine.
So here is my dilemma: Maybe it will never happen again, maybe it will happen again soon when it is not in my garage. I assume there is no way to test for a problem that goes away like that. I am considering replacing the starter (Lots of fun with headers and PS) and starter relay just because, but I hate to go to that time and expense for a glitch that may never happen again. So what do you guys think?
 
Most likely a stuck starter relay, or even the wire going down to the solenoid has "crossed" to the battery cable. Original cables were a molded assembly and that can happen.
 
Don't fool yourself unless you want to feel like a fool.
The starter doesn't get power unless the starter relay sends it there.
Some problems don't require a lot of technical info to diagnose. I never will forget the ford Bronco that went across a Bi-Lo parking lot (without hitting anything) and tried its damnest to climb a bank until the battery died. Stuck closed starter solenoid.
You have a large wire on one side of the relay that goes to the starter. Disconnect it. Now cycle the switch over and over again and see if you can recreate a stuck relay or a faulty ignition switch.
If not, you may have wires to the starter melted together by the headers. As a service tech for several years, I learned that basic understanding, logical thinking, along with close visual inspection got them out in the streets again much faster than reading. Too many times over the years, a simple test light showed me where the fault was.
 
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I would start with the relay, cheap and easy. If that's not it you have a spair for the trunk.

The thing that concerns me is the Bendix drive not retracting. IIRC they are designed to be rotated back in when the power is off ie relay disengages and the flywheel is spinning faster than the starter.
 
I keep a 1/2 wrench in the car to disconnect the battery in cases like this.
 
Install a battery cut-off switch it could save you a lot of money and aggravation.
 
I wanna say something funny using the words "ejection seat" but it's only funny in my head. My wife says this all the time; AJ, it's only funny in your head. Better to leave it there. Man I bet it wouldda been funny......
 
Dana67Dart said:
I would start with the relay, cheap and easy. If that's not it you have a spair for the trunk.

The thing that concerns me is the Bendix drive not retracting. IIRC they are designed to be rotated back in when the power is off ie relay disengages and the flywheel is spinning faster than the starter.
Click to expand...
Sounds like good advice. I did order one today. I think that since the starter was continuously spinning, maybe the bendix drive was being kicked back and forth. I know that what you say is right. When the engine starts, the flywheel kicks the bendix back. However, wouldn't a spinning starter kick the bendix back out to grind against the flywheel?
 
Is this a mini starter? or
a factory Chrysler starter?

Cuz if it's a factory starter, I have rebuilt about a dozen of those in my lifetime. With this starter, the apron-mounted relay kicks in the solenoid that is mounted in the starter housing, which drives "the bendex" into the ring gear. This action closes a contactor inside the solenoid, which then spins the starter motor.
As long as the Bendex is in the engaged position, the starter will continue to spin, because she gets her power from a separate cable!
That Bendex is on clutch, so as soon as the ringgear is spinning faster than the Bendex is, the Bendex is just along for the ride.

This tells me that, if your starter is an old-style Chrysler starter, it is functioning just fine electrically speaking, but the Bendex shaft is probably dirty preventing it from retracting. To clean it, the starter will have to come down.
Or, it is also possible that the contactor disc is damaged, broken, or has welded contacts.
But my money is on, that the solenoid plunger has stuck in the engaged position, or the spring behind it has somehow failed. If you take it apart, do NOT grease it up, lol! That's just looking to do it over; as the grease gets cold it will get thick and the little spring may not have the power to retract it. Leave it dry.
Or it could just be sand, gravel, or just plain rust on the bendex axle-shaft..
Here is a CROSS-SECTION; sorry it's so small.....

images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTgGLcA6Uwh0SZJE2HhNZ3YJNSv9Km9lsmhJQ&usqp=CAU.jpg


images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSxrAr1fQkpv3g8cgm4i9hHqbAaKZY9tzAUFg&usqp=CAU.jpg
 
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That's a classic sign of one of two things. Either the starter relay is just at the end of its life span OR the battery is getting low. When the battery voltage drops, the amperage goes up and can weld the contacts together in the relay. Obviously, that's what happened, but whether it's from the battery or relay who knows? Relays are cheap enough. I'd hawk ebay for a good NOS one or, Ray (@halifaxhops) might have some. Cheaper than a battery.
 
Dana67Dart said:
I would start with the relay, cheap and easy. If that's not it you have a spair for the trunk.

The thing that concerns me is the Bendix drive not retracting. IIRC they are designed to be rotated back in when the power is off ie relay disengages and the flywheel is spinning faster than the starter.
Click to expand...
The bendix didn't retract, because it was working correctly. With the starter motor ENGAGED, which it was, the bendix did exactly as designed.
 
RustyRatRod said:
That's a classic sign of one of two things. Either the starter relay is just at the end of its life span OR the battery is getting low. When the battery voltage drops, the amperage goes up and can weld the contacts together in the relay. Obviously, that's what happened, but whether it's from the battery or relay who knows? Relays are cheap enough. I'd hawk ebay for a good NOS one or, Ray (@halifaxhops) might have some. Cheaper than a battery.
Click to expand...
Not me right now.
 
I had the same issue on my 87 w150 was the starter relay contacts welded like RRR said.
 
AJ/FormS said:
Is this a mini starter? or
a factory Chrysler starter?

Cuz if it's a factory starter, I have rebuilt about a dozen of those in my lifetime. With this starter, the apron-mounted relay kicks in the solenoid that is mounted in the starter housing, which drives "the bendex" into the ring gear. This action closes a contactor inside the solenoid, which then spins the starter motor.
As long as the Bendex is in the engaged position, the starter will continue to spin, because she gets her power from a separate cable!
That Bendex is on clutch, so as soon as the ringgear is spinning faster than the Bendex is, the Bendex is just along for the ride.

This tells me that, if your starter is an old-style Chrysler starter, it is functioning just fine electrically speaking, but the Bendex shaft is probably dirty preventing it from retracting. To clean it, the starter will have to come down.
Or, it is also possible that the contactor disc is damaged, broken, or has welded contacts.
But my money is on, that the solenoid plunger has stuck in the engaged position, or the spring behind it has somehow failed. If you take it apart, do NOT grease it up, lol! That's just looking to do it over; as the grease gets cold it will get thick and the little spring may not have the power to retract it. Leave it dry.
Or it could just be sand, gravel, or just plain rust on the bendex axle-shaft..
Here is a CROSS-SECTION; sorry it's so small.....

View attachment 1715821481

View attachment 1715821482
Click to expand...

His bendix is fine. It was retracted because the relay was sending power to the starter. That's how they work. Starter starts spinning, the bendix kicks out. His starter simply stayed running, so the bendix stayed engaged, AS DESIGNED.
 
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