What's wrong with this picture Part 2, but much more serious this time.

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ProjectBazza

ProjectBazza

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In my initial "What's wrong with this picture" post I was feeling kinda cocky, and I'll admit I had consumed a couple adult beverages while posting that one.

This post is semi-related to that one, but now things are more serious.

Recall I'm working on a RHD, 1971 Valiant VG from Oz, and I removed the front suspension, k-member, and steering, as the owner had (past tense) a complete rebuild kit in the trunk. Yesterday I got (almost) everything ready for re-installation, and this morning I decided to clean-up the area around the frame-mounted steering box (the subject of my initial post), as this was the area that suffered the most from that God-awful upside-down engine mounted oil filter (one of my first posts on this site).

Well, let's just say it's a damn good thing I've done all of this work, as here's what I discovered when I started cleaning/degreasing around the steering box:

Initial "WTF?" shot:
IMG_4576.JPG


And then another with the steering box removed and things cleaned-up a bit:
IMG_4578.JPG


I haven't broken out the grinding wheels/discs yet to see the full extent of the crack(s), but it's bad enough that I can physically move the two frame sections side-to-side with just my bare hands if I push/pull really hard at the bottom. (There's a similar crack on the outer part of the frame, but the pictures I took are too dark and blurry.)

Bazza always said the front end was "loose", and that's the reason he bought the front-end kit from Oz. But to be perfectly honest, the bushings and tie rods that I worked with were bad, but not "that bad". Looks like I just found the proverbial "smoking gun" here.

What really sucks (insert my whine here) is we recently moved here, and I don't have 240V power in the outbuilding (yet) to run my wire feed.

Not sure how I'm going to handle this just yet (rent/buy a 115V welder, hire this out, run 240 power...), but thought I would just pass along this little Oddity from Oz to y'all while I start opening-up more adult beverages and contemplating what to do next.

Heading towards Comfortably Numb,

Jim
 
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Ooooof.
The time to fix that is NOW. Once the crack is buried under recently installed parts, it may be impossible to get a good weld on it.
Do you have any mobile muffler installation guys around there? That can be gas/torch welded. We have some mobile exhaust companies that travel around with trucks. They have tubing benders, torches and sometimes even a generator and 110 or 220v welder.
 
Knowing that there have been episodes of cracking with k member mounted steering boxes, this almost makes too much sense and deeper mind melds of wtf were they thinking?
 
We get a lotta that in roundy-round stock cars, frame weak at the firewall, lotta sideways stress.
Appearance isn't as important as strength for us, we'd weld it, plate each side, and a gusset to a solid frame/bar accessible.
Makes a great case for rack and pinion .
 
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In Australia, I've read that to legally sell the cars originally built by American automakers, they had "Local Content Laws" where a specific percentage of equipment on cars had to be sourced from the within the country.
Being right hand drive, they had to devise some manner of steering that was different than the American LHD versions. The C pillars look different, the fenders too. Alternators were sometimes from a different vendor. I don't know about A/C compressors or P/S pumps but those are other ways to UP the percentage for the local content laws.
 
First, determine if that is just stress cracks, or in combination of internal rust-induced stress cracks...
If the metal is solid, weld it up; and then fish plate all the sides you can get to. And don't be shy about it.
Don't mess around with a 110 welder on that, either. If you don't have 220 in your shop yet, rent a generator for the day.
 
Quick update:

A damn mouse did this!
IMG_4591.JPG


IMG_4588.JPG


As I was working on this I saw all of this "stuff" packed inside there (pics above), and when I opened it up some more I found the entire frame rail, from BEFORE the front k-member bolt on back, was packed with these tiny little seeds about the size of a sesame seed. I would estimate I got about a pound of them out, so far, but there's still more in there that I wasn't able to get out yet due to wetness and what-not. Have to let things dry out and keep working at it, I guess.

Thankfully there seems to be some sort of internal bulkhead just to the right of the upper steering box hole, as I can't seem to punch anything through there. And blowing air "up" from one of the holes further down the frame doesn't produce any results.
IMG_4599.JPG


I'll put some batteries in my inspection camera and have a look-see tomorrow evening sometime, but considering how many of these I ingested and inhaled this afternoon, I'm just hoping these are US-based seeds, from a US-based mouse, and not some weird biohazard seeds from a secret lab in Oz or NZ with a genetic mutation virus that's going to eat my brain from the inside out!

:lol:
 
Kern Dog said:
In Australia, I've read that to legally sell the cars originally built by American automakers, they had "Local Content Laws" where a specific percentage of equipment on cars had to be sourced from the within the country.
Click to expand...

I've heard the same, in that there could be no less than 40% "local content" in these imported vehicles.
 
Bazza.....your humor is great. Thank the Lord for that. There are TOO many dullards in this world!
 
Kern Dog said:
Alternators were sometimes from a different vendor.
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Yup. I forget the brand name, but this one has an "oddball" (for us) alternator that is giving the local rebuilder fits.

Thankfully the best-known, and most well respected Lucas guy here in the Sates, is located in Shakopee, MN, about 30 minutes from where I work, and I'll be dropping-off the OEM distributor with him sometime this week for a rebuild.
 
When I saw the first photo I suspected it is rusted from the inside

The mouse accelerated the issue
 
I concur the bushings weren't very bad... The steering box mount however.... How far is the shop from the electrical panel? How about the dryer? Any chance a big extension cord could be made to work?
 
Looks like you opened it from the bottom, I think I would open the inside up to the top flange so some 1/4" plate could be slipped inside & plug welded to the inner & outer rails, then form a piece of metal to the shape of the cut away area to fill the cut away metal.... Invisible & stronger than it was originally....
 
thats a feature they all have... eventually
the 50s cars and truck with similar set up also suffer.

car designed to last 10 years max and we are 50 years on...

that chassis rail has a zig zag of steel inside
and it has through hole strengtheing tube inside

a flat steel jig can help with repair use your steering box mounting ears as the template for your template...:)

this welded in structure blocks drainage of any water going into the rail
it also means that the drivers side rail is very stiff in this area and bendy towards the front
and the other rail is just plain bendy all the way along

so you get a concentration of fatigue and corrosion just before the steering box mount

suggest its rebuilt with a drain hole either side of the mount
standard repair section for A body can be used.

but you need to weld in the strengtheing i.e some round tube or whatever
so the steering box bolt doesn't crush the rail.

i made mine from filing cabinet but these days repair pressings are available.

do it once and its good for another 50 years

Dave
 
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alternator should be 55 amp Email alternator (aircon/taxi/police car) 35 amp if not

Email was the name of a large company that made stuff under licence way before anyone came up with electronic mail...:)

hence they made Carter BBS and BBD carbs and Carter fuel pumps
they also made eletcrical parts like alternators all show the name Email on the part

the lucas parts tend to be the wiper motors
the bosch parts stater motor and distributor, coil , and the ocassional alternator later on
the hella parts some lights
the VDO parts instrumentation and senders 12 volt no 5v regulator
Prestolite parts some wiper motors
switches local copies of chrylser design or imported
lights chrysler design a tail light bulb holder is the same as the US etc

most connectors lucas/lucar spade
some connectors Chrylser bullet in imperial sizes (igntion switch etc)

Dave
 
1WildRT said:
I concur the bushings weren't very bad... The steering box mount however.... How far is the shop from the electrical panel? How about the dryer? Any chance a big extension cord could be made to work?
Click to expand...

I didn't want to mention your help on the LCA's w/o your approval, as it wasn't my place. But now that the cat's out of the bag, let me state publicly: Thank you so much!

Also, with regards to the frame cracks and and extension cord, two options have come to the forefront so far. First, my neighbor's son is an electrician who needs his furnace and A/C replaced, and I'm a commercial HVAC guy. While I really don't like working on residential equipment, his father/my neighbor suggested I may be able to work-out some sort of barter with him on the labor (HVAC install against running 100 Amp service). Plus, he (my neighbor) thinks his son may have a big ol' extention cord they use on jobsites, and he's going to call him about this today.

Secondly, a friend of a friend (who I've met only a couple times) builds street rods for a living, and his place is only about 30-40 miles away. I called him on my drive-in this morning, and we both got to thinking about hauling the entire car over to his shop for the frame work.

So the wheels are in motion....

Thank you again!

Jim
 
I know its alot of work but you should replace the whole frame rail if you can. I walked away from a Plymouth Duster a few years back because it had welded 1/4 steel plates over frame rot...on the left front right behind the control arms. But that's another thing if the frame rail goes back that far I think it does all the way to the torsion bar cross member.
 
Dartswinger70 said:
I know its alot of work but you should replace the whole frame rail if you can. I walked away from a Plymouth Duster a few years back because it had welded 1/4 steel plates over frame rot...on the left front right behind the control arms. But that's another thing if the frame rail goes back that far I think it does all the way to the torsion bar cross member.
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Totally agree, but that frame rail was never designed to take the torque that box puts on, what is, - a sheet metal frame.
The replacement would need reinforcement regardless, prob covering that whole section,
It's not going to appear stock, it's gonna look altered.
Good design and workmanship, and skill, will make that look professional.
That's just poor design, - many more of those running around,? - cuz that won't be the only one with that issue, like ford truck frames at the steering box.
jmo
 
While I agree the idea of mounting the steering box on the frame rail that was never designed for a steering box wasn't a great idea, I think it could be plated inside the frame & built back considerably stronger than it originally was and still be an invisible repair if properly executed..

I tend to think the frame was weakened when the steering box mount bracket was welded on, I'm betting it was burned in hot looking for good penetration & likely undercut the metal of the frame rail creating a weak area... The rodent just added his little touch after the fact...
 
frame on an austrlian mopar as standard does have zig zag section that bridges both sides of the rail from top to bottom and steel tube strengthening inside for the bolt hole.
it provides an ideal rust trap inside the rail so it rusts from the inside to the outside and cracks

total production from 1962 to 1982 of A body style vehicles for Australia and the rest of the Right hand drive world had them like this

and the method was used on US made Right hand drive export cars as well. the barracudas out of hamtramck for UK Aus SA west indies japan etc used the same steering box and mounting
it all seems to originate from the pre monocoque/unibody cars of the 40s and 50s.
the first right had drive valiants used a 5 tooth sector just like the ones used with the worm screw boxes.

however i agree its not the best design. but then again a 1 tab cantilevered steering idler mount on the K frame aint exactly sensible either :)

not welding or bolting the top of the upper arm mount to the lower section of the inner fender, the US doesn't Australia does with a stregthening plate and what ammounts to a wheel stud pressed through from the top or they did on the later cars

history gets its chance to prove one way or another what was good and what was less so.

Dave
 
1WildRT said:
I think it could be plated inside the frame & built back considerably stronger than it originally was and still be an invisible repair if properly executed..
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That's what we're hoping for as well. I put the k-member back in (no steering or suspension), we braced-up the front of the car so that it could be moved (the car, not the frame), and with some large-wheel casters and a flatbed tow, it's now in the shop of a guy who builds street rods & pro touring cars for a living. Not sure when he will be able to get to it, but he understands the situation, and says he'll fit it into his schedule "somewhere".

(Re; "no steering or suspension": I haven't even gotten around to opening up the box and digging out the LCAs you sent back to me yet!)

Dave999 said:
frame on an austrlian mopar as standard does have zig zag section that bridges both sides of the rail from top to bottom and steel tube strengthening inside for the bolt hole.
it provides an ideal rust trap inside the rail so it rusts from the inside to the outside and cracks
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The other day I ran across a Youtube video of someone in Oz who had opened-up the frame of a VF or VG, and in that video were pictures of the bracing you're talking about. When I mentioned this to the guy who's going to repair this frame, he asked me to send him a link so he could see it, and he promised to "do my best" to copy it.
 
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Nice!!! but with a drian hole or a place to spray in cavity wax when cool :)

could probably do it by plug welding in sections of 1/4 or half inch steel tube across the inner cross section of the rail in a pattern like 5 on a dice

single sheet metal skin won't cut it.. needs the braceing.

double edged sword mind as decribed previously end up with 1 damn stiff section of the rail on the drivers side and a bendy one on the other :) i think its the lack of uniform bendyness and the torque applied by the box once the corrosion sets in that eventually gets em.

Dave
 
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Dave999 said:
single sheet metal skin won't cut it.. needs the braceing
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That's the idea, and I'm pretty sure he's going to brace the lower/bottom portion of the frame, as well as both sides, before welding-in a sheetmetal "cover plate", if you will, to make it look as OEM as possible.

Thankfully the vehicle isn't driven much (3-4 car shows, the occasional Sunday drive, etc), and the LH/passenger side "frame" sounds pretty solid, so I'm pretty sure this will be the last time repairs will be needed for quite some time.
 
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