Which Shocks For Handling??

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805moparkid

805moparkid

Slant and AFX Guy
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ok so i got springs and new front bars for my 73 dart... but what shocks?? my dad likes the KYB's but after all the threads about how they are so stiff they bounce i know to pass...

we cant afford 400 bucks worth of Bilsteins but dont want crappy shocks...

what is a good "entry level" shock?

as of now its got .910 bars, 1 1/8 front sway (for now), and 2x 003 SS springs, 235-60-16 all the way around... gonna sit on the low side...

so what do you guys like?
 
805moparkid said:
but i keep hearing they are very hard...
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But you said you can afford $400 for four Bilsteins.

So, KYB's are what's left. And you don't really have much bigger T-bars. MP sold .92 T-bars with a part number ending with "151" So the stiffer KYB's will add stiffness and roll resistance.
 
autoxcuda said:
But you said you can afford $400 for four Bilsteins.

So, KYB's are what's left. And you don't really have much bigger T-bars. MP sold .92 T-bars with a part number ending with "151" So the stiffer KYB's will add stiffness and roll resistance.
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what bars and shocks would you recommended? 1.05 and bilstiens?
 
i don't think the kyb ride hard at all. i know a bunch of guys that love the edelbocks shocks. they say they ride better then the kyb.
 
805moparkid said:
what bars and shocks would you recommended? 1.05 and bilstiens?
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Depends on all the other things you are looking for out of the car.

What are your objectives with the handling of the car?

What type of ride quality are you looking out of it?

How often do you drive it; like every day back and forth to work?


IF you were going to buy stuff for the car, I'm getting the vibe of:

.99" or 1.03" whatever is the current on sale special
Bilsteins (after or with, when you get the bigger T-bars)
Then try an adjustable rear sway bar
Offset rubber UCA bushing for 3-5 postive caster
Rubber LCA bushings

Then better Z rated 50 or 45 series tires. Will have to be bigger than 15" rim because they don't make Z rates 15" tires anymore that are a tire width appropiate to your car that are easy to buy.

I think the back is going to be a little high even with the 003 SS springs. But run then and see. Then lower the front spring hanger as neccesary. Then check and adjust pinion angle.

But it seems you current budget is $100 or so... And the car's current shocks are no good?... So get KYB's.
 
autoxcuda said:
Depends on all the other things you are looking for out of the car.

What are your objectives with the handling of the car?

want a good carver but not going to SCCA the thing, would like to surprise my friend with an S2000

What type of ride quality are you looking out of it?

How often do you drive it; like every day back and forth to work?

well it sounds like my dad will be driving it daily once we get some stuff back up to snuff on it... its his so he would like moderate good ride, not jarring but feel like its attacking the corner and not layin over


IF you were going to buy stuff for the car, I'm getting the vibe of:

.99" or 1.03" whatever is the current on sale special
Bilsteins (after or with, when you get the bigger T-bars)
Then try an adjustable rear sway bar
Offset rubber UCA bushing for 3-5 postive caster
Rubber LCA bushings

Then better Z rated 50 or 45 series tires. Will have to be bigger than 15" rim because they don't make Z rates 15" tires anymore that are a tire width appropiate to your car that are easy to buy.

he isn't a fan of rubber band tires so the side wall is his call, and really i dont care for the thin tire look either, but we are going to 16x7 rims

I think the back is going to be a little high even with the 003 SS springs. But run then and see. Then lower the front spring hanger as neccesary. Then check and adjust pinion angle.

was already planning on lowering the front hanger, i know better than to block the springs lol...

But it seems you current budget is $100 or so... And the car's current shocks are no good?... So get KYB's.

to be honest i cant remember if i changed them in the year i drove it or not... but im sure they could use help either way...
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Don't get caught up in the bigger is better idiom when it comes to choosing suspension components.

Sure it would be nice to have double adjustable, 200 buck a corner, shocks on the car, but as long as you don't go overboard with the spring/stabilizer bar rates, an everyday shock like the KYBs will do you just fine for spirited street driving. And if you think the KYBs will give you a choppy ride (when they're new, they mellow out a little with a few miles on them), just wait until you put on high rate torsion bars combined with brick bat sized stabilizer bar(s).

The important thing to remember is balance (not to mention ride quality in a street driven car as opposed to a race car, trailer or garage queen). What you are really looking for in a car you're living in everyday is something that will allow the tires work in the corners without laying over, and at the same time prevent one end of the car from washing out before the other. Too stiff a suspension (applies to either end) forces the tires to hop over the bumps and anytime a tire is unloaded or not in contact with the pavement it's not contributing to the job of keeping the car under control.

Especially if you go with 60 series tires on 15" wheels or 55 series on 16s(to get away from that "rubber band" look), you might want to rethink the torsion bar and stabilizer bar rates. My guess is a set of KYBs coupled to something in the range of the Mopar Performance .920 torsion bars and 1 3/16" to 1 1/4" front stabilizer bar, is going to give you an acceptable ride and reasonably good handling. Rereading your first post I'd say your torsion bar and front stabilizer bar sizes are right on the money, will work just fine with a set of KYBs, and depending on the existing rear spring rate, the rear bar might not even be needed, but adding a body mounted 3/4" rear bar anytime after the fact is easy if it's warranted.

Food for thought: the Mopar rear spring doesn't just hold the rear of the car up. It is a far more sophisticated piece than most want to believe, and is a key part of a very well thought out rear suspension. It was designed to be run with the front segment parallel to the ground when the car is at ride height. If the rear springs you are running are arched downward with the front of the car at the height you desire, raising the front spring hanger will only take you farther from the designed in parameters. The real solution is to have the spring dearched to get that front segment level with the weight of your car on it.

Remember too, these cars generally need more caster than they were designed with and anytime the front of the car is lower than the rear, you are giving up a little bit of the caster available to you. If you do decide your car needs more caster, upper offset Moog bushings are maybe not as desirable as tubular upper arms for adding in additional caster, but they are a fraction of the cost.
 
Most all the information here is great yet I run KYB's and have also heard how other shocks are better, but when it comes down to answering a simple question of " Did you ever run KYB shocks " the answer was always No and that my friends is not the answer I want to hear from someone who is giving me their advice.
When I was first building my car, all the Mopar fanatics told me to run a 727 and I did. A few months later I had a conversation with Ed Hamburger and he said that I should have had Dynamic build me a 904 and after speaking with Harold from Dynamic, he said the same and this is from 2 guys who certainly know their **** from experience.

The Mopar suspension book says to run Koni's for cornering and handling but that's another story..
 
IMHO, if he desires more handling performance from the car with current .92" T-bars, KYBs, 1 1/8" front bar, then he need to increase front spring rate T-bar size.

I think the .92" are a good starting point from what it sounds like the cars is going to be used for.

.99" is not that choppy on the street. The deal with the KYB's is that they have a hard time controlling the higher spring rates. The KYB have a lot a gas pressure that adds to the spring rate as opposed to increasing the control of the spring. Still the .99" and KYB were not that stiff and obnoxious on the street.

I ran KYB's with .99" T-bars for about 12 years on and off (80K miles.) I've blown a couple KYB's out during that time, one was used. I ran some used Konis, Herb Adams VSE, and Qa1's during that same time with the same springs. The KYB's would pull you down on your seatbelt if you ran over large pavement seperation like a bridge overpass at 65mph plus. But the Koni's and QA1's were did not do that so much. Heck my current huge 1.14" T-bars and Bilstein don't do that quite like the .99's and KYB's did.

When people run very large T-bars like 1.10" and above and leave the KYB's on, they report very rough and strange ride. It's not fair to the KYB's, they are just not matched to those big springs. When those same people put Koni's, Spax, or Bilstein shocks on the same car, the ride actually gets much better.

Just running real large sway bars with small springs takes away from concept of an independently suspendened front end. It just links both sides.

If the front leaf segment is paralell with the ground that car will not have any anti squat. I'd think from the factory there was some arch up there. Mine still had a little arch after 40 years wear. Move the front eye up and you add anti squat. A little arch in the front segment will do that too. But will give you a little roll steer. Not really the end of the world.
 
as far as spring rates for the front i was taught to have the lightest spring possible to keep the car from bottoming out on bumps or hard stops, and run BIG sway bars...

for now it sounds like KYB's will work... when we get a bigger itch to go faster will do a more complete package...

as for the rear suspention i was told on the "leaf Spring" thread that one side SS springs are good for starters... would i rather do a TVS system... yes... gonna happen...no lol...

thank you for all the quick info... please keep it coming!
 
805moparkid said:
as far as spring rates for the front i was taught to have the lightest spring possible to keep the car from bottoming out on bumps or hard stops, and run BIG sway bars...
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http://www.guldstrand.com/gtheory.asp

At some point it just links both sides of the suspension.

Under straight line braking they don't work. So you transfer a bunch of weight to the front end and jack up the rear which overpowers the availible friction in the front tires and unloads the rear tires.

Here's a video of my cars front suspension at the track. Watch the lower control arm movement compared to the sway bar movement. Notice how they are not always the same. The sway bar has to react to the suspension action. The front springs/T-bars don't have that waiting reaction time. The front springs resistance to weight transfer is much more immediate.

Running ball joint type sway bar links makes that reaction time smaller. Rich Ehrenberg noted that when he changed to ball joint type rod ends on the Green Brick the car turned crisper into corners. That's because he cut the reaction time down.

[ame="http://youtu.be/je5oeamQ_uw"]302 Found[/ame]
 
805moparkid said:
...for now it sounds like KYB's will work... when we get a bigger itch to go faster will do a more complete package...
Click to expand...

I agree.

as for the rear suspention i was told on the "leaf Spring" thread that one side SS springs are good for starters... would i rather do a TVS system... yes... gonna happen...no lol...

thank you for all the quick info... please keep it coming!
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SS springs have a strong front segment.

The Hotchkis leaf springs have a very strong segement too. They have two thick supporting leafs that go all the way to the front under the main leaf to resist wrap up and wheel hop under acceration. And there is a thick strong clamp much closer to the front than stock springs.

But in addition, the Hotchkis leaf springs have a thick leaf above the main leaf to prevent wrap up and wheel hop under braking. If the rear tires hop, you loose rear traction and the rear end comes around. Super Stock nor stock springs do not have anything like this.

Here's the Hotchkis leaf springs resisting heaving braking at 120+ mph and thottling in the sweet spot RPMs of my 416 stroker with imediate reacting BG Silver Claw double pump carb.

I put on the noise reducing cap on the camera since it was right near the mufflers. Maybe I shouldn't have done that.

[ame="http://youtu.be/TLOrFexa6Fk"]302 Found[/ame]
 

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One thing about the KYB's- they are more harsh in the beginning, but they seem to get less harsh after about 1K-1,500 miles and operate at that level forever after that initial break-in. I've had them on 2 A-bodies and the rear of my (now deceased) turbo minivan
 
on my daily driver,(68 cuda) i have a hot iron headed 318. for the front end i have a hellwig 1 1/8" sway bar, boxed lower control arms, 1.0" just suspension torsion bars, flaming river 16:1 manual steering box, QA1 12way adjustable shocks, and 17x8 on all 4's with a 245/45/17 tires. on the rear, i have hotchkis springs, same QA1 shocks, no sway bar yet, (soon to be adjustable hellwig)

car handles VERY good. not harsh at all. but im used to driving a solid axle 77 chevy 4x4 that bounces all over the road so, i can take harsh. LOL
 
805moparkid said:
would like to surprise my friend with an S2000
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You'd better be prepared to do some serious modifications and dump some money into it then. As someone who drives a '94 Miata with a nice suspension setup (Flyin Miata springs, Bilstein HD shocks, bigger sway bars front and back, added chassis bracing, roll bar, and summer performance tires), I appreciate how well the S2000's handle. They have plenty of power for their size, and great handling characteristics. I also have a 71 Dart ... I would like to improve it's handling, but I know that unless I dump SEVERAL thousand dollars into the suspension, it will not handle anywhere near as good as my Miata.

You have to remember that the technology that is in his S2000 is decades ahead of what was used in our old cars... I can understand and appreciate your desire to do this... but it won't be cheap or easy.
 
Cal_gecko said:
You'd better be prepared to do some serious modifications and dump some money into it then. As someone who drives a '94 Miata with a nice suspension setup (Flyin Miata springs, Bilstein HD shocks, bigger sway bars front and back, added chassis bracing, roll bar, and summer performance tires), I appreciate how well the S2000's handle. They have plenty of power for their size, and great handling characteristics. I also have a 71 Dart ... I would like to improve it's handling, but I know that unless I dump SEVERAL thousand dollars into the suspension, it will not handle anywhere near as good as my Miata.

You have to remember that the technology that is in his S2000 is decades ahead of what was used in our old cars... I can understand and appreciate your desire to do this... but it won't be cheap or easy.
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as i said would like to... im more into draggin and when i build my SCCA street car its the 72 240Z out back...
 
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