Why do the ignition boxes fail?

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You can wipe out an HEI module just as easily as any other.... :)

when you trigger a spark out of the coil secondary, you have what is much like a "recoil" type action in the primary... the action that creates the spark has a smaller reaction going the other way in the primary of the coil, that "kick" hits the ignition module. it can be 350 400 Volts

basically shoot that shotgun and you will feel it in your shoulder every time
your ignition module and your tacho is "the shoulder".

Harsh environment, made harsher by the way we dive our cars and what we make them do over and above going to the shops and visiting grandma....

on top of that i doubt the components used these days, were specifically off a production line making components for an ignition module, i.e selected specifically for the job. Modern components probably had aspirations to be in a PC power supply a nice HI-FI or part of a battery charger or some such.... not be stuck in a metal box in a hot engine bay after being covered in a nice big insulating gloop of epoxy resin

Dave
 
There are hoards of reasons. You said your box was 10 years old. I can just about guarantee, that regardless of the box or label, it was made overseas.

1...Poor grades of components, and redesign of the circuit to save money, as eluded to above in post 16

2...Mismatch of aftermarket coils and ballasts AND over voltage from problems in the charging system, mostly voltage drop

3...On self converted vehicles, formerly with breaker points, mounting locations that cause the box to run hot.

4...In the case of any "aged" box, aging components, particulariy caps. (capacitors)

Remember, you are no longer dealing with OEM components or even design, and may be using decades old components.

Also, the colors of the boxes don't have meaning anymore, not since boxes were made overseas, and as noted, internal structure was changed. Many replacement boxes do not even have a real external transistor. It is for looks
 
My guess is that the original power transistor is no longer made
As far as I’m aware, all of the new boxes use a small transistor mounted somewhere inside the box, and that the transistor on the outside is actually fake and just for the look. The new ones can’t shock you for this reason, since the case of the “transistor”isn’t connected to the collector.
 
Ok so the Hi Rev I see on Jegs looks like it's got the fake transistor, no? I'm open to ideas, just doesn't look like a good USA piece and potentially susceptible to same QC issues previously discussed.

So in running a lower resistant ballast resistor, you potentially get a hotter spark but then less life of the electronic components is what I am seeing. But then you have to ask how much less spark and is it even worth .1 in the 1/4? If not, I'd say a running car is better than .1 lol.
I've seen fake thrown around a lot. What does that mean, exactly? That the transistor doesn't look like one that somebody likes? I don't get it. If the thing WORKS, it's not fake. One of the doctors I see sometimes.......she has one of the best lookin sets of tits you will ever see.....and she loves to show um off. A friend of mine once said "you know they're fake, right?" To which I replied, "I bet you wouldn't say that if you had one in your mouth". It's all relative. Whose to say some of these so called "fake" transistors might not be as good or better than the original? I've not seen any failed HI Rev units as of yet. Not that that means a dang thing, but you'd figure if they were junk, people would be screamin and they're not.
 
Rusty it could mean a few things. That the one used is not as heavy duty. That big transistor carries ALL the current through the coil, and has to get rid of HEAT. Without being mounted externally on a nice heat sink, it cannot do that, so
1...Possible inferior transistor, current/ voltage ratings, etc
2...Possibly less reliable becuz, china
3...Not as well heat sinked.

This fits right in with what I was trying to point out. They redesigned the circuit to save money, and it just might not be as good, design wise, reliability wise, nor may the components be as rugged
 
Keep in mind that the original boxes were designed in the 70s with the technology available then.

Semiconductors were much slower back then. Most of the heat generated in a transistor is during switching. When it is off it is not generating heat. When it is hard on the resistance is low and it is not generating much heat. If it generates a lot heat, it has to be big to dissipate it.

Newer transistors are much faster. ( I use the term “transistor” generically for semiconductors.) If they switch faster, they generate less heat. Less heat means you can have a smaller package.

The less heat you are generating means more energy goes into the coil, where it can improve performance.

Faster switching also is more efficient and generates higher coil voltages, but that is another discussion.

So with all that said, the newer boxes COULD perform better than the old ones. This assumes, however, that they are not made like crap with cheap parts. That has been proven to be the case with most of them. It is a crapshoot whether you get a good one.

So what was my move? They are cheap, at least the last time I bought them. About $25. So I bought 2 or 3. Keep one in the trunk. I had one fail about 5 years ago, second one still going strong.
 
I've seen fake thrown around a lot. What does that mean, exactly? That the transistor doesn't look like one that somebody likes? I don't get it. If the thing WORKS, it's not fake. One of the doctors I see sometimes.......she has one of the best lookin sets of tits you will ever see.....and she loves to show um off. A friend of mine once said "you know they're fake, right?" To which I replied, "I bet you wouldn't say that if you had one in your mouth". It's all relative. Whose to say some of these so called "fake" transistors might not be as good or better than the original? I've not seen any failed HI Rev units as of yet. Not that that means a dang thing, but you'd figure if they were junk, people would be screamin and they're not.
Gotcha. Maybe I misunderstood hop’s post or thread about the transistor issue specifically. But I understand where you’re coming from. If it works and no one is upset then maybe they nailed it.
 
Gotcha. Maybe I misunderstood hop’s post or thread about the transistor issue specifically. But I understand where you’re coming from. If it works and no one is upset then maybe they nailed it.
I think hoppy has warmed up to them a little. I know at first, he didn't like them.
 
A couple years ago, I bought a very original 76 Volare RoadRunner. Very original old318 hotrod. Ran great. I pulled what had to have been the original ECU and the entire underside had NO goop!!!!!! None! I pulled it off, put it in a bag in the glove box, and put on a new China one. It lasted about a year, so I put the old eroded ECU back one. Problem solved.
 
You can wipe out an HEI module just as easily as any other.... :)

when you trigger a spark out of the coil secondary, you have what is much like a "recoil" type action in the primary... the action that creates the spark has a smaller reaction going the other way in the primary of the coil, that "kick" hits the ignition module. it can be 350 400 Volts

basically shoot that shotgun and you will feel it in your shoulder every time
your ignition module and your tacho is "the shoulder".

Harsh environment, made harsher by the way we dive our cars and what we make them do over and above going to the shops and visiting grandma....

on top of that i doubt the components used these days, were specifically off a production line making components for an ignition module, i.e selected specifically for the job. Modern components probably had aspirations to be in a PC power supply a nice HI-FI or part of a battery charger or some such.... not be stuck in a metal box in a hot engine bay after being covered in a nice big insulating gloop of epoxy resin

Dave
Good considerations thank you!
 
And how many parts stores know the ratings on these? Yeah it's a 67 cuda, 70+ charging, elec ign....spin the wheel lol.
That's a good point and one I've touched on.....and naturally been disagreed with. But I've never thought the MP manual was right about the ballast resistor ratings they give. Mainly because, as we all know, the resistance those resistors give goes down as they heat up, so a .5 ohm for example might give .2 or even .1 when it's hot. That's why I prefer a 1.5 or 1.7 ohm resistor for the ignition. People argue and say "but you're dropping spark energy". Am I? Funny. It still runs.
 
what is it about them that cause failure
IMHO...

2 things cause the failures

  1. The internal components are lower quality and marginally able to handle stock current loads of a stock coil.
  2. The addition of higher output coils (read more current needed to charge them)
The circuit is not very sophisticated but it was designed when electrical components were larger (read more able to handle stresses) now with circuit board mounted components being tiny, I suspect specifying the same component (100ohm resister 5 watts) might be not really be able to handle 5W continuous like a 5W resister from back in the day could.
 
Rusty it could mean a few things. That the one used is not as heavy duty. That big transistor carries ALL the current through the coil, and has to get rid of HEAT. Without being mounted externally on a nice heat sink, it cannot do that, so
1...Possible inferior transistor, current/ voltage ratings, etc
2...Possibly less reliable becuz, china
3...Not as well heat sinked.

This fits right in with what I was trying to point out. They redesigned the circuit to save money, and it just might not be as good, design wise, reliability wise, nor may the components be as rugged
I agree. Redesigns normally ain't for OUR benefit. lol But as I said, I haven't seen a great many or any actually bad Hi Rev complaints. I'm sure there have been some. You'd think we'd read about it.
 
They fail for the same reasons all electrical stuff has ever failed. Moisture, heat, bad grounds. It's just that they have a higher failure rate now because since they aren't made with as good a stuff as they used to be, those failures happen sooner. And I've seen some of those fancy high priced ECUs fail too. I won't mention names, but they have snappy fancy names and cost a LOT. There have been several members that have had them fail. So far, I've had good luck with the Hi Rev 7500. I think even hoppy said he kinda likes those now. @Newbomb Turk has one of mine that he's tested and he says it's a pretty good unit.
I burned out a High Rev in my Charger.

ECM Hi Rev 1.JPG


ECM Hi Rev 2.JPG


I had the 1.4 ohm coil and the .70 Ballast resistor.

ECM ch 2.png


The instructions with the distributor, Hi Rev ECM and ballast:

RE 7A.JPG


I have had crappy luck with ECMs though. Last year I was dealing with a battery that would drop voltage. The battery would be okay to start the engine but it had me wondering if (when running and recharging the battery) the charging system somehow wreaked havoc with the ignition system. I wasn't sure if the ignition system was sensitive to the voltage fluctuations.
I admit to being borderline clueless to electrical matters sometimes.
 
I burned out a High Rev in my Charger.

View attachment 1716405918

View attachment 1716405919

I had the 1.4 ohm coil and the .70 Ballast resistor.

View attachment 1716405920

The instructions with the distributor, Hi Rev ECM and ballast:

View attachment 1716405922

I have had crappy luck with ECMs though. Last year I was dealing with a battery that would drop voltage. The battery would be okay to start the engine but it had me wondering if (when running and recharging the battery) the charging system somehow wreaked havoc with the ignition system. I wasn't sure if the ignition system was sensitive to the voltage fluctuations.
I admit to being borderline clueless to electrical matters sometimes.
Good to know that you had an issue but have had others outside of this. Still interesting that the coil and resistor were right spec.
 
It is easy to blame the installer for the problem because it is often the case with failures. I hear the same thing with flat tappet camshafts and lifters.
There has been a steady decline in quality though what with the growing trend to "outsource" manufacturing to other countries.
 
yeah and the subtleties of the orginal circuit and its construction are lost

anyone who built a kit radio or siren horn for their bike as a kid will remember things such as

this resistor must be mounted on tall legs at least 1/4 of an inch above the board

This capacitor and these transistors must be mounted flat to the board

Remember to put the insulating mica between the mounting tab and the case for the power regulator

etc etc... getting the components soldered in the right place gave results
following the design for the lay out explicitly and building as per the design got better results
they didn't add in those extra construction details for fun.

its the subtlties like that that get lost with aftermarket stuff

HEI had a longer life, same circuit different modules for different cars. everyone made one, you can find a 4 pin or 5 pin module in every junk yard across the world. they don't look like the GM one but they are all based on much the same design, lots of companies will clone a good idea and make a change to avoid patent infringement, looks like everyone did, they were still in use in one form or another until EFI and ECUs arrived went through more improvements over the years. HEI benefited from the fact that its invention was driven by emissions legislation. Chrysler made chrysler electronic its chunky unit was not copied by anyone else it got used all over the world on chrysler cars but that's as far as it seems to have gone simca hillman talbot labelled units exist

chrysler electronic 72-73
HEI 75-76

HEI made chryslers module look like a1950s tube radio yet it was released in the same decade. Chrysler, Middle aged ladies hand soldering on a production line, potted in epoxy with what looks like a mid 60s germanium transistor on top.
HEI appears to have always been machine built, used integrated circuits the only parts that were discrete components configured the circuit for the pickup and coil... and you'd need a magnifier/soldering station more akin to whats youd see in a mobile phone repair shop to do it.

chryslers ignition is late 50s early 60s tech which got cheap or reliable enough to use in a car by 1973 driven by the transistor radio revolution and the space race. early MSD6AL much the same mid 60s design hand soldered board hand assembled unit.
HEI is closer to 80s than its introduction date suggests

both have their failures only the former can be repaired, if you can get it out of the epoxy.

Dave
 
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They fail for the same reasons all electrical stuff has ever failed. Moisture, heat, bad grounds. It's just that they have a higher failure rate now because since they aren't made with as good a stuff as they used to be, those failures happen sooner. And I've seen some of those fancy high priced ECUs fail too. I won't mention names, but they have snappy fancy names and cost a LOT. There have been several members that have had them fail. So far, I've had good luck with the Hi Rev 7500. I think even hoppy said he kinda likes those now. @Newbomb Turk has one of mine that he's tested and he says it's a pretty good unit.
I do think the Hi Rev is the better one you can get now. Only heard of one fail but the guy was also running a .6 ohm coil. Remember also a chrome box or orange box aftermarket are definitely not the same *** a Mopar one. They basically are a stock box. Just helped a member over at FBO out he was killing coils. Weird one we went through his system could not find a thing. Sent him a tester Rob same as you have. Nada found. Hey rev it up and put a load on it with lights. SOB his alt was putting out 17VDC only under load. That was the issue. So that was a weird one.
 
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I do think the HiRev is the better one you can get now. Only heard of one fail but the guy was ako running a .6 ohm coil. Remember also a \chrome box or orange box aftermarket are definately not the same *** a Mopar one. They basically are a stock box. Just helped a member over at FBO out he was killing coils. Weird one we went through his system could not find a thing. Sent him a tester Rob same as you have. Nada found. Hey rev it up and put a load on it with lights. SOB ehis alt was putting out 17VDC only under load. That was the issue. So that was a weird one.
Lordy. I don't know of anything that would have lasted long at that. lol
 
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I do think the HiRev is the better one you can get now. Only heard of one fail but the guy was ako running a .6 ohm coil. Remember also a \chrome box or orange box aftermarket are definately not the same *** a Mopar one. They basically are a stock box. Just helped a member over at FBO out he was killing coils. Weird one we went through his system could not find a thing. Sent him a tester Rob same as you have. Nada found. Hey rev it up and put a load on it with lights. SOB ehis alt was putting out 17VDC only under load. That was the issue. So that was a weird one.

And the box gets the blame. It’s a PITA to sort out these issues but it’s the only way to fix stuff like this.

If the box is grounded, it stays dry and away from header heat and isn’t being shrouded from cooling air AND if the alternator isn’t putting out dirty power or over charging most of these boxes will live a long, long time.

I just had a guy kill a Unilite. For no reason I can think of.

I’m going to have him do the above test so it doesn’t do it again.

BTW, what tester do you use?
 
And the box gets the blame. It’s a PITA to sort out these issues but it’s the only way to fix stuff like this.

If the box is grounded, it stays dry and away from header heat and isn’t being shrouded from cooling air AND if the alternator isn’t putting out dirty power or over charging most of these boxes will live a long, long time.

I just had a guy kill a Unilite. For no reason I can think of.

I’m going to have him do the above test so it doesn’t do it again.

BTW, what tester do you use?
That's why I run a nice, chubby extra ground wire and mount it so there's a gap underneath for good air flow.
 
And the box gets the blame. It’s a PITA to sort out these issues but it’s the only way to fix stuff like this.

If the box is grounded, it stays dry and away from header heat and isn’t being shrouded from cooling air AND if the alternator isn’t putting out dirty power or over charging most of these boxes will live a long, long time.

I just had a guy kill a Unilite. For no reason I can think of.

I’m going to have him do the above test so it doesn’t do it again.

BTW, what tester do you use?
Basically a sorenson unit.
 
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