zero compression yes Zero lol !

-

cannucky

The Guy With No Birthday
Joined
Sep 25, 2008
Messages
5,526
Reaction score
580
Location
Portage Du Fort QC
Tuning my motor after getting it all back together it just didn't want to idle in gear , found a dead cylinder -number 7 started by dropping a couple of drops of oil in it to seal the rings but nope zero compression still , backed off the exhaust adjuster half a turn and POP the valve snaps shut , run the pressure test alls good but of course the big question -was the valve over adjusted ? is the valve bent ? I've had a pushrod hang on the shoulder of an adjuster before and am hoping thats what happened here otherwise it's either going back to the builder for a 25k mile refresh or it's getting Aluminum heads .
 
That aint a good sign if it snapped closed when you moved the adjuster, but then again if the pushrod was almost out of the rocker and turning the adjuster made it pop back in you need better valve springs or a lower redline.:D
 
Or human error cough cough .... after we put it together in Saskatchewan when I popped a head gasket one of the pushrods got hung up on the shoulder down low close to the shaft in the crutch of the casting , it ticked for 200 miles couldn't figure it out , got the car home on the train pulled the valve covers to go over it and found the problem in 5 minutes , reset the pushrod and adjusted the lash it ran fine for 2 years after that . Motor didn't get over 6500 this time so I doubt it floated more likely I effed up seating the pushrod again somehow , either way I'vwe got another 1/2 day tomorrow so I'll get it all bolted back together and try retuning her again if it eats the valve oh well off to Brian for a full refresh I guess .
 
Oh and the valve springs are brand new beehives , put them in when I lapped the valves , in fact the whole valve train is new except the guides and the valves themselves .
 
I'm mostly worried it got tapped by the piston while stuck open and the stem got bent meaning it's going to keep happening . we'll see soon enough I guess eh LOL
 
Damn Chris. Hope its an easy fix. Worn valve guide? Can you get spring off with head on? Bad spring maybe?
 
If the compression test now reads good, the valve is certainly not bent. It sounds like the valve was stuck in the guide.
 
If the head of the valve breaks off and falls into the cylinder,or the keepers get dislodged, and the entire valve trys to fall into the cylinder,it usually ends up you have a lost the block, one head, and one piston. Pretty pricey.
 
First as I said the valves and guides are the only things that aren't new . this head was disassembled by someone very knowledgable and he was certain the guides were still good .
Second I am guessing it was the valve shutting it could very well been the pushrod spinning off the shoulder of the the lifter as the rocker lost all preload and loosened up a lot , enough that the pushrod was floating loose .
Lastly there was no hammering sounds when I was spinning the motor and I can see the piston in the hole doesn't appear damaged.
All this leads me to believe the pushrod wasn't seated properly , causing way too much preload holding it open a hair ,since I'm not an octopus and can't hold all of them while tightening the shaft hold downs I probably screwed up .The car has been driven a couple of times for short distances after a full warmup and has been the victim of my feeble tuning efforts a few times in between each trip .
 
Last edited:
On the brighter side I finally have the carb idling with the other 7 plugs showing a darkish grey instead of the fluffy black , so at least I'm getting a handle on how to do that .
 
If the head of the valve breaks off and falls into the cylinder,or the keepers get dislodged, and the entire valve trys to fall into the cylinder,it usually ends up you have a lost the block, one head, and one piston. Pretty pricey.

Yeah I understand the risk and the cost on this deal , I'm trying to stay positive and optimistic , I'm going to try and borrow a scope so I can get a real good look at the piston . I cleaned everything real good while it was apart and the zero compression also means it's been washing fuel so it is nice and shiny in that hole . going to spin it some more with the plugs out to see if it is a sticking valve then run it in the driveway for twenty minutes at a time a few times before actually driving it again .
 
Yeah I understand the risk and the cost on this deal , I'm trying to stay positive and optimistic , I'm going to try and borrow a scope so I can get a real good look at the piston . I cleaned everything real good while it was apart and the zero compression also means it's been washing fuel so it is nice and shiny in that hole . going to spin it some more with the plugs out to see if it is a sticking valve then run it in the driveway for twenty minutes at a time a few times before actually driving it again .
That's not how it works; with zero compression, there is also zero suction. If the exhaust valve was the guilty party, then as the piston descended on the intake stroke, it would have been easier for the exhaust from other cylinders to fire into the cylinder than it would have been for the plenum mixture to get in there. Air always moves from a high-pressure are into a low pressure area. The plenum is low, especially at idle. The exhaust system is higher.
In fact; it is not uncommon for exhaust to scoot right across the piston and into the intake, where the following cylinders all get a piece of it, cause that intake cycle is really long. But there may be a battle going on in there, if the exhaust is still somewhat working, as in your case. So who's to say exactly what was going on, but certainly not a gas-washed cylinder.

IMHO, looking at the piston-top to is a waste of time. If the lifter preload was correct, then the head has to come off.IMO. That particular valve/guide needs work,and I would be checking all the rest of them too. And maybe even the other side.Once the head is off then you can see.
I just don't have money to build a second engine.
BTW
I have reused Fell-Pro 1008s at least 3 times. That's why I use 'em. Your results may vary,lol......
 
Thanks AJ , I Think I get what your saying pressure wise but how would the exhaust move to another header tube ? I am thinking I over adjusted the rocker , the valves were opening and closing but the exhaust must have been staying cracked open just enough to prevent the cylinder from pressurizing by allowing the piston to push the intake charge past the exhaust valve , hence the zero cylinder pressure when I did the test , when I test I remove the carb and all the plugs then screw in the pressure guage and spin the motor for 5 cycles as indicated by the huffing sound . Thats why I couldn't believe the reading of zero . My logic is that with zero pressure the cylinder wasn't actually firing which was also how the plug looked . I know the pushrod was in the adjuster correctly which is why I am thinking it must have gotten hung up on the shoulder of the lifter instead of going down into the pocket making the pushrod effectively too long . Until the "release" yesterday I wasn't able to back the adjuster up enough to fully loosen the pushrod so I just went from maximum available loose to 1 turn preload which is how I screwed up , I am exagerating when I say washed the cylinder more likely just repeatedly misted the piston top lightly the only thing I am looking for visually is if there is a dent in the aluminum piston from hitting the steel valve tho I am pretty sure I would have heard a ticking or hammering if that was the case . I appreciate what you are telling me I actually have spare Head gaskets but the 35 buck intake gaskets would have to be shipped in thanks to my living on an island .I also have the numbers 318 sitting on a stand rebuilt and ready to go back in if things do go horribly wrong .One step at a time I guess ,if I had a shop and a hoist to pull it I would jump on that train immediately but I don't and tearing it down in my tiny garage is a real nightmare . I am going to inspect everything I can , then manually crank the motor while resetting every adjuster then finally spin it some more with the plugs out to see if it sticks or if I have found my eff up and corrected it without doing any harm , then if nothing seems amiss I'll fire it up and run it in the drive for a couple of 20 minute cycles check everything again then procede to test hops .

PS thanks for the write up on the transfer port tuning , I set up the carb your way and it fired right up like a champ , well a seven cylinder champ apparently but a champ none the less .It really helped me understand how the carb was working .
 
Comments inside the quote
Thanks AJ , I Think I get what your saying pressure wise but how would the exhaust move to another header tube ?Exhaust pressure is higher than intake pressure. With nothing coming down the pipe from the bad cylinder, exhaust from the merge can go back up the pipe, the wrong way.
I am thinking I over adjusted the rocker , the valves were opening and closing but the exhaust must have been staying cracked open just enough to prevent the cylinder from pressurizing by allowing the piston to push the intake charge past the exhaust valve ,With the exhaust hung open the cylinder was not filling with intake charge. See, you're thinking the piston sucks in the intake charge. That is only partially so, and only if the exhaust valve is sealed. When the piston is moving down on the intake stroke, it is reducing the pressure in the chamber, allowing atmospheric air, which is at a higher pressure, to migrate into it. Air always flows from a high pressure area to a low pressure area.
But with the exhaust valve hung open, the piston cannot reduce the pressure in the cylinder. And with pressure in the exhaust system being higher than atmospheric pressure, exhaust will flow into the cylinder instead, of air at atmospheric pressure. Since the intake valve is still open, this exhaust can find it's way into the plenum too. Once the chamber is full of exhaust, and the piston turns around headed up on the compression stroke the intake will still be open for 50 or 60 or more degrees. So as the piston is coming up, it will be pushing the exhaust out of the cylinder. Since the intake plenum is at a lower pressure than the exhaust,and the intake valve will be open further than the hung valve, for some unknown number of degrees, there is a good chance that some of that exhaust will be migrating into the plenum.
This would be EGR to the max!,lol.

Whence the zero cylinder pressure when I did the test , when I test I remove the carb and all the plugs then screw in the pressure guage and spin the motor for 5 cycles as indicated by the huffing sound . Thats why I couldn't believe the reading of zero . My logic is that with zero pressure the cylinder wasn't actually firing which was also how the plug looked Oh the plug was still firing, but with no air/fuel charge in there, a fat lot of good it was doing! I know the pushrod was in the adjuster correctly which is why I am thinking it must have gotten hung up on the shoulder of the lifter instead of going down into the pocket making the pushrod effectively too long .Firstly, I don't think this is possible, but suppose it was; if you adjusted it with the foot on the lifter body, I doubt the engine would have turned more than a couple of revolutions before the pushrod popped into the socket. But now the clearance would have been excessive, and it probably would not have stayed on the upper adjuster. But suppose it did, then if it did stay, it would have been very very noisy.
I kindof think you are grasping on this idea.

Until the "release" yesterday I wasn't able to back the adjuster up enough to fully loosen the pushrod so I just went from maximum available loose to 1 turn preload which is how I screwed up , I am exagerating when I say washed the cylinder more likely just repeatedly misted the piston top lightly the only thing I am looking for visually is if there is a dent in the aluminum piston from hitting the steel valve tho I am pretty sure I would have heard a ticking or hammering if that was the case .I called looking for the dent a waste of time, cuz a new compression test will tell you everything you need to know. If the compression in this hole is the same as all the rest then the valve is ok, and that is the only important thing. If you go looking for a dent and find it, then the compression will be poor too. I appreciate what you are telling me I actually have spare Head gaskets but the 35 buck intake gaskets would have to be shipped in thanks to my living on an island .I also have the numbers 318 sitting on a stand rebuilt and ready to go back in if things do go horribly wrong .One step at a time I guess ,if I had a shop and a hoist to pull it I would jump on that train immediately but I don't and tearing it down in my tiny garage is a real nightmare . I am going to inspect everything I can , then manually crank the motor while resetting every adjuster then finally spin it some more with the plugs out to see if it sticks or if I have found my eff up and corrected it without doing any harm , then if nothing seems amiss I'll fire it up and run it in the drive for a couple of 20 minute cycles check everything again then procede to test hops .

PS thanks for the write up on the transfer port tuning , I set up the carb your way and it fired right up like a champ , well a seven cylinder champ apparently but a champ none the less .It really helped me understand how the carb was working . Glad to hear it, and you're welcome.
 
Ok I get what your saying now . I was figuring the flowing exhaust through the collector would create a suction pulling from the dead hole the way we used to use a running faucet to create a vacuum source in science class .
 
Ok I get what your saying now . I was figuring the flowing exhaust through the collector would create a suction pulling from the dead hole the way we used to use a running faucet to create a vacuum source in science class .
It can and does, when the pipe is active. With a dead cylinder, nothing is coming down the pipe. It is the slug of hot air moving down the pipe, entering the merge, that creates the suction. No slug, no suction. Of course the other 3 cylinders are firing into the merge as well, but their suction is moving up their pipes. And the result of those other 3 slugs of hot air piling up in the merge is pressure there that is higher than atmospheric.
A good single exhaust system will run at 4 psi or less. A very good dual might run 2psi or less. In the plenum at idle, the vacuum is about 11 inches say. This is a minus psi. As in less than zero psi. As the rpm goes up, so does the vacuum (to a point around 2200 rpm), and so the minus pressure goes still further from zero.
To compare apples to apples, you have to convert psi-gauge to psi absolute, and unfortunately I have forgotten the methodology. But even not-knowing it you can clearly see that the pressure in the exhaust is probably 2 or more times what it is in the plenum. Two times is 200% more, Guess which gases, when given a chance,are going where.
Air always moves from an area of high pressure to an area of low pressure.
EDIT; The following belongs in a different thread; I think my computer screwed up....
If you want proof of this, it is in your vacuum gauge.
Your vacuum prior to this event was 11.5,right.
During the event, it was 5,right?
And now it is 10 to 11 and drifting,right.
Well why do you think the vacuum changed from 11.5 to 5.0? Do you think it was cuz one cylinder wasn't working? Well, now that the vacuum is back, put the gauge on it and disconnect one plug wire. I guarantee you, running on 7 cylinders with no other changes from the pre-event, your vacuum will not drop from 11.5 to 5. I believe that loss of vacuum was actually a gain of pressure from the exhaust system!, coupled with the loss of rpm it caused.
And I believe that may have been the pressure which was blowing your metering rod pistons up off their seats, and causing the surging. Well,lucky guess on that, I suppose, cuz I never actually saw the pistons dancing.
 
Last edited:
Hmmmm I am not sure where your getting your info from ? I understand what you are saying about the pressure and vacuum interaction but I never said anything about vacuum readings or metering rod pistons , I have a holley 950hp so no metering rods . I think you are confusing me with another thread maybe ? Lol it happens to the best of us sometimes eh !
 
Hmmmm I am not sure where your getting your info from ? I understand what you are saying about the pressure and vacuum interaction but I never said anything about vacuum readings or metering rod pistons , I have a holley 950hp so no metering rods . I think you are confusing me with another thread maybe ? Lol it happens to the best of us sometimes eh !
Well I guess I did get mixed up.Again, lol.
 
Well I guess I did get mixed up.Again, lol.
hey no sweat eh ! I hope I'm not coming off as argumentative I really do appreciate all the knowledge your dropping here , my mind works in a funny way sometimes and I try to relate what I am learning to other things I have already burned in the brain so I can retain some of what I am learning for later hence the high school science line . I also have made tons of stupid mistakes while working on this motor over the years and have so far managed to get away with not doing any permanent damage , knock on wood there eh lol ! Thanks for your help .
 
A word of update I finally got around to running the valves again , static cylinder pressure came right back , I drove it around a little yesterday and will be driving it some more this week taking longer trips each time and checking plugs after each hop . been finding 6 of them sooty and have adjusted the idle screws on the three affected corners an eighth of a turn each time . Once I'm sure all eight are as clean as possible I'll play with the jetting some . Little steps eh ! most of yesterdays trip was in traffic so mostly idle with a little punch at launch to keep the tires clean lol !
 
-
Back
Top