727 and 904 will both require a kick down cable. Actually pretty much any dodge rear wheel drive trans will require one. The two transmissions are very similar in design and operation. Just different torque handling capabilities.
Noob question 727 really low shift points
- Thread starter Dave Haertel
- Start date
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Dave Haertel
Well-Known Member
Thanks, I appreciate the knowledge. I was going to do the cable this weekend but got wrapped up tearing the top half off my daughter's mustang to replace a head gasket, hopefully sometime this week in the evenings I'll be able to get under there and at the least get the cable attached at the transmission since that's the hardest part for sure.
My Buddy is having the same problem with an old truck 727. He never ran it but had the transmission rebuilt and when he went back to the transmission guy and said it was out of an old military truck the transmission guy told him they had lower planetary gears. I never heard of such a thing but can it be true?
Dave Haertel
Well-Known Member
I would think that a truck, being designed for torque and low end power would shift at higher RPMs to get the most torque out of each gear, but lower gears might lend toward more torque so that's actually pretty weird I think.
The Tflites in those old army vehicles may have lower gear planetaries but the rear gear in those rigs are in the 5's or 6's (5:13 etc.) Wide open they only go 45 or 50. It's the rear gears. Like old farm trucks. Same MO.
Dave Haertel
Well-Known Member
Makes more sense then for sure.
Dave Haertel
Well-Known Member
Ok, so got an update, half good, half bad. I was able to get the connections made down at the transmission after hours of busting my knuckles, I finally got it, tried routing it the best way I could think back up front, only to meet with more issues.
While connecting the kickdown linkage to the carb, I dropped the connecting nut (brass locking) that connects the kickdown cable to the carb linkage and it literally disappeared into the abyss, I'll look tomorrow but am not hopeful, and to top it off, my throttle cable won't work, I'll have to replace it as well, the Lokar adapter assembly for Holley carbs drops right on top of where my old throttle cable was jerry rigged up and has a permanent end on it. Look at the first couple of pictures of the carb in the beginning of the post to see it.
So, I went as far as I could, I hooked up the Holley adapter from Lokar, connected the fittings for the kick down cable and it'll have to sit that way until I can order a Lokar throttle cable that'll tie into that adapter. Sad that I didn't know about that ahead of time, I certainly would have ordered one when I ordered the other 2 pieces. I think the cable is too short for the way I routed it, or I have some more work to do underneath, but it was a tight stretch even with all the slack out at the carb.
While connecting the kickdown linkage to the carb, I dropped the connecting nut (brass locking) that connects the kickdown cable to the carb linkage and it literally disappeared into the abyss, I'll look tomorrow but am not hopeful, and to top it off, my throttle cable won't work, I'll have to replace it as well, the Lokar adapter assembly for Holley carbs drops right on top of where my old throttle cable was jerry rigged up and has a permanent end on it. Look at the first couple of pictures of the carb in the beginning of the post to see it.
So, I went as far as I could, I hooked up the Holley adapter from Lokar, connected the fittings for the kick down cable and it'll have to sit that way until I can order a Lokar throttle cable that'll tie into that adapter. Sad that I didn't know about that ahead of time, I certainly would have ordered one when I ordered the other 2 pieces. I think the cable is too short for the way I routed it, or I have some more work to do underneath, but it was a tight stretch even with all the slack out at the carb.
Dave Haertel
Well-Known Member
The normal every day 904 will bolt right up to any Mopar small block. (even the V6's)
Most newer automatics from rear wheel drive mopars will as well.
I'm running a 42RH (A500OD) behind my 5.9 Magnum.
(80mph at 2,100 RPM's and 25+ mpg doing it.) on the hiway.
Around town?
Who cares.
You should drive there instead of walking, besides I don't think a scooter will go that far on a charge.
What should I be looking at for cost (without the driveshaft) for a 42RH? Are they fairly rare or would they be around pretty regularly?
TrailBeast
AKA Mopars4us on Youtube
I am sure different geographical locations all have their hurdles, but I paid $125 for mine out of the Pick a Part yard and that was with the large yoke and converter.
(fluid and any pan contents inspected first of course)
It came out of a front end wrecked 5.2 Dakota built before 1996 (hydraulic controlled years)
The local yard had 6 I think, and I started with the one that had the best looking fluid.
Then I put a Transgo stage 2 kit with the "Low at any speed" option in it.
So for the trans I would have to put it at 350 or so ready to go in.
Dave Haertel
Well-Known Member
Ok, so I'm not sure where to go from here, apart from try a Lokar throttle cable. The original cable won't get down to a straight enough angle so I had to try putting springs in all kinds of funky positions, to give me some kind of return when I pressed the pedal down. So when the throttle finally acted normal enough for a test drive, I had nothing, wound up, could hear the pump in the trans winding, but she wouldn't shift. Throttle cable from Lokar is about another 50 bucks, probably the cheapest solution at this point but I'm concerned the trans is toast.
diymirage
HP@idle > hondaHP@redline
If your careful, you might be able to cut the sleeve of the stock throttle cable and that will give you the flexibility to use it instead of buying another one
As for the transmission, have you tried manually shifting it?
(It is probably toast, because it was ran without a kickdown but there may be a manual valve body in there aswell)
As for the transmission, have you tried manually shifting it?
(It is probably toast, because it was ran without a kickdown but there may be a manual valve body in there aswell)
Dave Haertel
Well-Known Member
Ok, so just to clarify, if there's a manual valve body, the kickdown isn't necessary? I'm assuming that there were way more that were NOT manual valve bodies with the way everyone recommended right away that the cable was necessary. I didn't try the manual shifting but I will this weekend when I can spend some more time under there and maybe do some adjustment. Is there any way to identify what type of valve body it is without dropping the pan and having to refill it? I couldn't find any numbers stamped on it when I looked before but it was night time, so I'll check again (of course it could have been rebuilt but at least I might know what it was originally).
I ordered the throttle cable today, just because I want it to be correct up top and if that's what I need to do, so be it, I'll just set aside a few more ibuprofen for afterwards
. I didn't look super close at the cable at the end of the transmission, but I'm assuming it's set by default to have most of the adjustment up top. I talked to Lokar on the phone and they asked how much I cut off. I said huh? LOL. It actually is a hair to short at the carb, so I'm thinking I have to at the very least re-run it to make sure that there's enough slack on both ends. Now that I know how it attaches up top, I should be able to get it straight and if it doesn't work then, I'll know I'm now in the market for a transmission.
diymirage
HP@idle > hondaHP@redline
I shouldn't have mentioned the manual valve body, your first post makes it clear it is not, because it was shifting on its own back then, correct?
It does look like you trimmed the kickdown pretty tight, and left the adjustment on the wrong side, so to speak
You may need to trim the outer sheath to make it work
On the bright side, the throttle cable should be a breeze
It does look like you trimmed the kickdown pretty tight, and left the adjustment on the wrong side, so to speak
You may need to trim the outer sheath to make it work
On the bright side, the throttle cable should be a breeze
Dave Haertel
Well-Known Member
Throttle
As for the valve body, yes I didn’t understand what the difference is but now I get it, a manual would only shift if I manually selected the gears. It’s problem was readily apparent that it was shifting into third by 20 mph with no way to wind it up and get it to hold off. And the fact that it did shift every time was what made me hopeful this thing isn’t trashed.
I’ll hopefully have more time this weekend between my daughters heads installation if the machine shop is done with it, and her friends sway bar install on her Pontiac G6. The sway bar job is only a half hour but if the heads are back I may end up into the following weekend for my car. Ugh.
Thanks for the knowledge though.
The throttle cable should be a breeze? I’m dreading that job actually, I’m 6’4 and they put RAM pickup seats in this thing because they (whoever put this together) wanted electric seats, ugh. Seats are on my todo list because of how crappy it is in the cabin. I’m going to be upside down with my legs in who knows what position just to get to the top of that pedal, lol. Hopefully though it goes smooth and I spend as little time as possible inside the car.
As for the valve body, yes I didn’t understand what the difference is but now I get it, a manual would only shift if I manually selected the gears. It’s problem was readily apparent that it was shifting into third by 20 mph with no way to wind it up and get it to hold off. And the fact that it did shift every time was what made me hopeful this thing isn’t trashed.
I’ll hopefully have more time this weekend between my daughters heads installation if the machine shop is done with it, and her friends sway bar install on her Pontiac G6. The sway bar job is only a half hour but if the heads are back I may end up into the following weekend for my car. Ugh.
Thanks for the knowledge though.
TrailBeast
AKA Mopars4us on Youtube
Here's a suggestion for you.
Take some of the bend out of the bracket where the green line is so that the cable points right at your linkage attaching point, and then add a slight bend in the throttle pressure cable bracket to get it back in line.
Also, since the trans shifted before I suspect the TP cable is just adjusted too tight.
With zero throttle at the carb, the lever at the trans should be pretty much fully forward.
Take some of the bend out of the bracket where the green line is so that the cable points right at your linkage attaching point, and then add a slight bend in the throttle pressure cable bracket to get it back in line.
Also, since the trans shifted before I suspect the TP cable is just adjusted too tight.
With zero throttle at the carb, the lever at the trans should be pretty much fully forward.
Dave Haertel
Well-Known Member
Thanks Beast. I actually ordered the Lokar throttle cable anyways and that should be here this afternoon, so I'll actually just bite the bullet if I can and install it, that should give me a much better fit for the car anyway. I kinda figured I had something out of whack with the adjustment by that same reasoning, that it shifted before and that I could actually hear it revving up more than it had before. I feel like I am on the right track at least. If not, I've reached out to some of the people on the forum selling 904s and I found one or two near me on Craig's list, so worst case scenario, I put in a used one that I feel confident should work correctly and I learn how to rebuild them by using the existing one as the guinea pig.
TrailBeast
AKA Mopars4us on Youtube
Makes sense to me, but I can't help thinking most of the problem right now is that it's too tight on the TP adjustment.
That will make it delay the shifts and rev higher before it does shift.
In fact you can adjust it so high that it pretty much won't shift at all until it gets way up there in RPM's.
I'll tell you a clue about it being adjusted to tight, and that is if you put it in D and go but it doesn't upshift AND also does not have engine braking when you let off the throttle.
Meaning you let off and it feels like it's coasting in neutral.
Dave Haertel
Well-Known Member
That's exactly why I put that spring in the front of the throttle connection to the carb, holy **** you're good. It felt like the throttle wasn't coming down at all, I thought that was from the cable so I put a spring in front to pull back on the assembly in case it was getting stuck because of the alignment of the throttle cable.
So, the problem has to be somewhere in the run between the transmission and where it comes up the firewall (Lokar said I should have to cut some off because it should be too long and I thought it was too short). Putting the adjustment there was the only way it would fit onto the throttle linkage when the linkage was wide open which is I thought the way it was supposed to be adjusted. With the adjustment right in the middle on the TV linkage and I was shy of the throttle connector by about an inch or so.
TrailBeast
AKA Mopars4us on Youtube
If I remember correctly I had about an inch of cable or more (the inner cable) once it was all hooked up.
I put the return spring for the throttle pressure on the trans (actually from the lever to the front cooler line) because the lever has some spring to it in it's travel but it doesn't pull the lever all the way forward without an external spring on it.
I really do think you might have yours too tight and that's why it won't shift.
The cable is made to mount under one of the extension housing bolts and pulls the lever to the rear of the car when the throttle opens.
Is this the way yours is?
Dave Haertel
Well-Known Member
So I pushed the run closer to the middle of the firewall and now I’ve got a crap ton of room. See photo. Now I just have to figure how much needs to be adjusted up top.
I also cut the front part off of the stock throttle cable and am going to see if I can just use the ends of the Lokar cable and attach to the existing cable. If not I’ll have to crawl under the dash and deal with it. I’ve tried once and am too big to be under there without pulling the steering wheel which just adds more time to getting this done.
Dave Haertel
Well-Known Member
Forgot to ask, which spring did you put at the trans? The fatter or the skinnier of the 2?
Dave Haertel
Well-Known Member
Ok so after much ado, I may have saved my transmission yet. Attached is a photo of the linkage and cables attached up at the carb with a decent amount of slack for further adjustment. I video recorded a trial run to upload so I’ll upload that a little later but essentially it’s shiftin now between 30 and 35 for 1 -> 2 and 45 and 50 for 2 -> 3. I don’t think that’s optimal but at this point I’m ecstatic that it’s shifting semi normally. It’s not kicking down so there’s work to be done for sure, but I’m at a better starting point than I was before.
Success! Good to hear!
TrailBeast
AKA Mopars4us on Youtube
Sounds good so far, but pretty high in the shift points.
I just used a light spring to insure the lever on the trans was pulled all the way forward with zero throttle.
Without a shift kit the trans should be in third by about 20mph.
I think with the shift points so high that is what is messing with your kickdown, and once the shifts are within a normal range it should come back.
You are almost there.
Dave Haertel
Well-Known Member
Sounds good so far, but pretty high in the shift points.
I just used a light spring to insure the lever on the trans was pulled all the way forward with zero throttle.
Without a shift kit the trans should be in third by about 20mph.
I think with the shift points so high that is what is messing with your kickdown, and once the shifts are within a normal range it should come back.
You are almost there.
Thanks, yea it's been quite the process that's for sure. So, adjusting the cable down at the trans is probalby where I'll be able to settle it in I'm guessing. I'll stick the spring on it later tonight if I get the chance. I didn't realize that's high for the shift points, Maybe this will start to get it down into the optimal range.
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