AFR Heads

[Newbomb Turk]

Agreed. Even a W5 was small for a serious stroker motor

There is no cylinder head for the Chrysler that is 18 or 15 degree that would be anywhere near big enough for 400 plus inches.

Does not exist.

See post 398.

Well prepped W2’s would outrun Bloomers.

Well prepped W5’s will easily outrun the W2.

The W7 is far above the W5.

If you want to make power on 400 plus inches even the Indy heads are a weak suck deal.

Since that’s the fact, the fact is wanting to build power with 400 plus engines would start at the W7.

Simple as that.

And I’d say cast of well prepped W5’s will at least run with the best Indy heads.

 

[Newbomb Turk]

So, the AFR heads are nothing more than a fart in a windstorm and we're at 16 pages. I think you boys need a new outlet.

The problem is we have guys making claims about cylinder heads that no actual head porter would ever claim and it gets old.

They’ve never had a grinder in their hands for 40 hours doing the heads and intake.

They’ve never haven’t spent 20 hours on the flow bench trying to make the air go where it doesn’t want to go and then trying to get the fuel to go around the short turn.

But they all look at flow numbers like that’s the number that matters.

@Hysteric has said it many times. You can make a lot of power from what looks like little flow, but you’ve got to get the fuel around the short turn and THEN you have to burn it all in time to make power.

Published flow numbers mean very little to me.

Fuel flow on the dyno will tell you exactly how much power you will make.

I see guys running HUGE jets thinking they are making power, but they are not.

They can pull on the boosters hard enough to get any fuel moving.

My best stuff always runs on smaller than orthodox jetting.

It’s as much a science as it is an art.

You have to burn fuel to make power.

Simple as that.

 

[273]

Because there is ONE in line rocker head that might make that.

How many 500 hp head choices do you need?

This is why Chrysler guys are sucking hind tit.

The Chevy guys always want more power but we are stuck with a large percentage of end users who think 500-550 hp is all they want so the rest of us get to eat ****.

I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again.

If you want to go racing and make power you build a big block Chevy.

Anything else is a waste of time and effort and money.

I went to the local track on the 26th to help a friend. I’ve known him since 2003 and used to build his engines. In fact, the first single 4 572 that he had that went over 1k power on gas was with my heads and intake.

The shop that built the engine before that couldn’t
scratch 950. I know for a fact they copied what I did because they called and asked.

IIRC it went 1035 at 6800. They used a 20w50 oil. It ran to 7500 in the car.

A good 5w30 would have been 20 more. The extra 700 rpm was probably another 30-40.

And guess what? He went the Predator route. I told him to skip it and do a BBC but he spent probably close to 10 years on that ****.

He finally got sick of waiting on parts and paying 65% more for them.

He sold that junk and went BBC and hasn’t looked back.

Chrysler has **** on racers for so long now it’s stupid. And we kept taking it.

Between Chrysler and its garbage management (piss on Lee Iacocca) and slap happy racers who never want to go faster we get what we get and we are who we are.

You want to go racing? Get a big block Chevy and do it.

Or continue to try and turn chicken **** into chicken salad.

And BTW and FWIW the way Chrysler treated some of its racers publicly is a shame on them that will never go away.

When the dust settled, Chrysler and their shitty, petty management derelict idiots we’re made fools by the people they crapped on hardest.

Served them right.

The way I see it, it don't matter if we technically need another 500 hp head. The fact these companies are willing to invest into the LA platform means they feel there's some future worth investing in, more mid level competition means possibly more people building 450-550 hp engines and some of those will want to build higher meaning at some point the 550-650 hp parts might grow in demand and possibly higher which might at some point make companies invest in parts you want. But if there little demand and investment in the 450-550 hp range unlike higher output market will grow.

 

[Newbomb Turk]

The way I see it, it don't matter if we technically need another 500 hp head. The fact these companies are willing to invest into the LA platform means they feel there's some future worth investing in, more mid level competition means possibly more people building 450-550 hp engines and some of those will want to build higher meaning at some point the 550-650 hp parts might grow in demand and possibly higher which might at some point make companies invest in parts you want. But if there little demand and investment in the 450-550 hp range unlike higher output market will grow.

You just made my point.

 

[fishmens67]

f you want to go racing and make power you build a big block Chevy.

There's always the 655 Indy if you're needing more on the Mopar platform.

 

[B3422w5]

The problem is we have guys making claims about cylinder heads that no actual head porter would ever claim and it gets old.

They’ve never had a grinder in their hands for 40 hours doing the heads and intake.

They’ve never haven’t spent 20 hours on the flow bench trying to make the air go where it doesn’t want to go and then trying to get the fuel to go around the short turn.

But they all look at flow numbers like that’s the number that matters.

@Hysteric has said it many times. You can make a lot of power from what looks like little flow, but you’ve got to get the fuel around the short turn and THEN you have to burn it all in time to make power.

Published flow numbers mean very little to me.

Fuel flow on the dyno will tell you exactly how much power you will make.

I see guys running HUGE jets thinking they are making power, but they are not.

They can pull on the boosters hard enough to get any fuel moving.

My best stuff always runs on smaller than orthodox jetting.

It’s as much a science as it is an art.

You have to burn fuel to make power.

Simple as that.

I don’t know if you’re including me in your wierd utterings or not.
I could give two ***** about flow numbers, they mean absolutely nothing to me.
As a racer, I look more at how many mph somebody has been with a head, and what the combo is that got it to do that. Guess that’s my geeky previous life as an engineer seeping into my thoughts.
I know of two excellent sets of W5 heads that on two different benches couldn’t get over 300. I also know how fast those were in a car at the track too. They differed with what the bench would suggest the limits of power the car was capable of laying down.
Don’t make assumptions about what you think somebody might or might not know.

 

[NC Engine Builder]

I don’t know if you’re including me in your wierd utterings or not.
I could give two ***** about flow numbers, they mean absolutely nothing to me.
As a racer, I look more at how many mph somebody has been with a head, and what the combo is that got it to do that. Guess that’s my geeky previous life as an engineer seeping into my thoughts.
I know of two excellent sets of W5 heads that on two different benches couldn’t get over 300. I also know how fast those were in a car at the track too. They differed with what the bench would suggest the limits of power the car was capable of laying down.
Don’t make assumptions about what you think somebody might or might not know.

I can agree with some of this, power potential is NOT allways relative to flow bench numbers. Those highly vaunted bloomers dont crack 300 cfm either, but they APPEAR to make big power.

 

[273]

You can't compare Sbm to the Chev market or even Ford, Say even only 1% of Chev builders want over 600 hp that's probably bigger than the Total Mopar market nevermind the sbm portion of that market.

 

[B3422w5]

I can agree with some of this, power potential is NOT allways relative to flow bench numbers. Those highly vaunted bloomers dont crack 300 cfm either, but they APPEAR to make big power.

What’s with the caveat all the time?
“ Appear”
There are plenty of time slips that have been posted on this very forum that remove the word “ appear” from honest results.

 

[9secRR]

There is no cylinder head for the Chrysler that is 18 or 15 degree that would be anywhere near big enough for 400 plus inches.

Does not exist.

See post 398.

Well prepped W2’s would outrun Bloomers.

Well prepped W5’s will easily outrun the W2.

The W7 is far above the W5.

If you want to make power on 400 plus inches even the Indy heads are a weak suck deal.

Since that’s the fact, the fact is wanting to build power with 400 plus engines would start at the W7.

Simple as that.

And I’d say cast of well prepped W5’s will at least run with the best Indy heads.

that's why i made the jump to W8's, to take the next step up in power. i'm past the 550-650 hp range that most of these SM, TF, AFR, Bloomer, Promaxx..... heads will make. not saying anything bad about them at all. they are for a certain HP range.

my W2's did everything i could ask for just time to move on.

 

[Newbomb Turk]

I don’t know if you’re including me in your wierd utterings or not.
I could give two ***** about flow numbers, they mean absolutely nothing to me.
As a racer, I look more at how many mph somebody has been with a head, and what the combo is that got it to do that. Guess that’s my geeky previous life as an engineer seeping into my thoughts.
I know of two excellent sets of W5 heads that on two different benches couldn’t get over 300. I also know how fast those were in a car at the track too. They differed with what the bench would suggest the limits of power the car was capable of laying down.
Don’t make assumptions about what you think somebody might or might not know.

If the best you got out of a W5 head was 300 the guy was a hack and I don’t care who that was.

No wonder your **** didn’t run with them.

I posted above how I’d fix the W5.

In fact, I’ll say publicly if I had a fresh set of unmolested castings I could easily get 375 out of a W5 head.

FACT.

And it would burn fuel with a combustion chamber that’s far better than most people think.

I don’t need to assume what you don’t know. You don’t know induction and you’re proving it here.

Edit: 400 CFM if I could weld on them.

 

[fishmens67]

There are plenty of time slips that have been posted

and very respectable I might add.

 

[B3422w5]

If the best you got out of a W5 head was 300 the guy was a hack and I don’t care who that was.

No wonder your **** didn’t run with them.

I posted above how I’d fix the W5.

In fact, I’ll say publicly if I had a fresh set of unmolested castings I could easily get 375 out of a W5 head.

FACT.

And it would burn fuel with a combustion chamber that’s far better than most people think.

I don’t need to assume what you don’t know. You don’t know induction and you’re proving it here.

Edit: 400 CFM if I could weld on them.

Those two sets of heads were ported by household name Mopar head porters. Either of which you are very familiar with.
Btw, one of those sets I ran, a little later on, with a bit more camshaft, those heads went 140 mph at 3320 on super stock springs. Not too terrible, I don’t think. Not many have done much better

 

[Newbomb Turk]

Those two sets of heads were ported by household name Mopar head porters. Either of which you are very familiar with.
Btw, one of those sets I ran, a little later on, with a bit more camshaft, those heads went 140 mph at 3320 on super stock springs. Not too terrible, I don’t think. Not many have done much better

On how many inches? Just curious.

All I’m saying is I did my personal heads back in 2002. They went 325 on my bench and 355 on a Superflow bench about 2 miles from my house.

That engine made 715 hp at 8500 on 340 inches.

That’s 2.1 hp/cid and I did not like the manifold. I had plans to change it but I just got tired of the grind (no pun intended) of working 40 hours a week on other people’s **** and 30 hours a week on mine.

Had I kept at it, I’d say I was 15-20 down just on the intake. The M1 W5 tunnel ram is a joke compared to the Pro Dominator.

And that was on alcohol. I had to use an oil that was another 10 down on what I wanted to use but couldn’t because of the methanol.

And I know, I know for a fact I was giving up power at peak torque with the MFI I was using.

And sadly, it was down at peak because of the MFI. After I did the math I realized I could make way more power at peak and under the curve if I went to two 1050 carbs and put it on gasoline.

It’s very hard to get rid of all the fuel at 8500 you don’t need and not kick the rods out in the gear changes because the mechanical check valves react far too slow. They hang open too long.

The rpm drops, the pressure drops, I’d have at least one bypass open that shouldn’t be and it would get lean and take a tip off a plug.

I suppose EFI systems today could manage that far better and it may be easier to do with EFI.


What I know 22 years later is far more than I knew then.

That’s how I know I could take a set of W5 heads and get 380. All day long. That’s about 760 hp. If I can make it burn the fuel well it would go over that.

I’d do a 4.2 x 3.79 engine. It would make peak power at 7500ish and shift at 8k or a bit more.

That’s 421 inches and I think it would tickle 800. If I nutted up and made it make power at 8k it would certainly go over 800.

I’m just not sure I can get enough area to shorten the induction enough to make it make power up there will all those inches.

If I live another 20 years I would hope I could do better than I can do today.

If I live that long but I doubt I have 20 left.

 

[B3422w5]

On how many inches? Just curious.

All I’m saying is I did my personal heads back in 2002. They went 325 on my bench and 355 on a Superflow bench about 2 miles from my house.

That engine made 715 hp at 8500 on 340 inches.

That’s 2.1 hp/cid and I did not like the manifold. I had plans to change it but I just got tired of the grind (no pun intended) of working 40 hours a week on other people’s **** and 30 hours a week on mine.

Had I kept at it, I’d say I was 15-20 down just on the intake. The M1 W5 tunnel ram is a joke compared to the Pro Dominator.

And that was on alcohol. I had to use an oil that was another 10 down on what I wanted to use but couldn’t because of the methanol.

And I know, I know for a fact I was giving up power at peak torque with the MFI I was using.

And sadly, it was down at peak because of the MFI. After I did the math I realized I could make way more power at peak and under the curve if I went to two 1050 carbs and put it on gasoline.

It’s very hard to get rid of all the fuel at 8500 you don’t need and not kick the rods out in the gear changes because the mechanical check valves react far too slow. They hang open too long.

The rpm drops, the pressure drops, I’d have at least one bypass open that shouldn’t be and it would get lean and take a tip off a plug.

I suppose EFI systems today could manage that far better and it may be easier to do with EFI.


What I know 22 years later is far more than I knew then.

That’s how I know I could take a set of W5 heads and get 380. All day long. That’s about 760 hp. If I can make it burn the fuel well it would go over that.

I’d do a 4.2 x 3.79 engine. It would make peak power at 7500ish and shift at 8k or a bit more.

That’s 421 inches and I think it would tickle 800. If I nutted up and made it make power at 8k it would certainly go over 800.

I’m just not sure I can get enough area to shorten the induction enough to make it make power up there will all those inches.

If I live another 20 years I would hope I could do better than I can do today.

If I live that long but I doubt I have 20 left.

The ones I had were on a 422, the other ones not sure

 

[Mean416]

I have nothing against any aftermarket offerings. Just want to make that clear.

If I was in the market for a set of heads right now, id probably lean towards the bloomers. The TF are also nice looking.

If I had a choice between those two and a modernized W series head, at a comparable SYSTEM cost, I'd go that route.

 

[MOPARMAGA]

There's always the 655 Indy if you're needing more on the Mopar platform.
View attachment 1716401619

You ought to own a couple of those.

 

[273]

I firmly believe a PROPERLY ported set of W2s would make more power than the bloomers.

Like this

 

[273]

There is no cylinder head for the Chrysler that is 18 or 15 degree that would be anywhere near big enough for 400 plus inches.

Does not exist.

See post 398.

Well prepped W2’s would outrun Bloomers.

Well prepped W5’s will easily outrun the W2.

The W7 is far above the W5.

If you want to make power on 400 plus inches even the Indy heads are a weak suck deal.

Since that’s the fact, the fact is wanting to build power with 400 plus engines would start at the W7.

Simple as that.

And I’d say cast of well prepped W5’s will at least run with the best Indy heads.

When your saying Make Power your talking 8,000+ rpm's ?

 

[Newbomb Turk]

When your saying Make Power your talking 8,000+ rpm's ?

Yes. It’s funny this comes up. Chad Spierer has a post on his Facebook page about a cylinder head he did and it was a “low rpm” deal.

In his world and in most of the performance world, 8500 rpm is a low speed engine.

Unless you are a Chrysler guy. Than anything over 7k is uber high rpm and beyond the scope of even a strip/street car.

RPM is horsepower. It seems to me that in general Chrysler guys fear rpm way more than they should.

I get TBO and I understand it, but it’s not 1980 any more. And before I digress I’ll just stop typing.

 

[Newbomb Turk]

Like this

View attachment 1716401770

Yeah, something like that. On 340-360 inches (depending on how you get there) a head like that will make power (on gasoline) it will make power to 8800-9000 rpm and a shift rpm of 500-700 rpm above that.

On alcohol you can drop that by a minimum of 500 rpm.

370-390 inches you will struggle to make power above 8200ish on gasoline. You can push it higher but you most likely will be soggy at the bottom of the gear changes and you’ll have to zing it up higher to get it to move. Alcohol will lower the rpm like above.

Anything over 390 inches and you just can’t get the area to make power very high. It’s a waste of time IMO to do it. You just give up too much rpm to make it worth while.

And I should add that’s with a tunnel ram that’s fully ported. A single 4 changes those numbers.

 

[ValiantRacing]

Unless you are a Chrysler guy. Than anything over 7k is uber high rpm and beyond the scope of even a strip/street car.


I go 7500 at the stripe and do not think its a big deal, i was going 8k, but the cam and maybe heads i have are to small, and i was turning more rpm and not going anywhere. And when other small block guys ask me how many rpm's and i tell them, they just shake their head and look at me like i am a dumb ***.

 

[Newbomb Turk]

Unless you are a Chrysler guy. Than anything over 7k is uber high rpm and beyond the scope of even a strip/street car.


I go 7500 at the stripe and do not think its a big deal, i was going 8k, but the cam and maybe heads i have are to small, and i was turning more rpm and not going anywhere. And when other small block guys ask me how many rpm's and i tell them, they just shake their head and look at me like i am a dumb ***.

lol that’s the truth.

In 1988 Chrysler guys were appalled that I was shifting a bracket car at 8200.

It got worse years later when on certain days I shifted at 9k.

It’s a viscous cycle that keeps retarding the parts we can buy.

These manufacturers know that 90% of these guys will never see over 7k and an honest 600 hp so they know that the already Uber small market is even smaller than it appears.

That’s why they keep making the same head with a different name on them.

It’s not new though. In the late 1990’s and early 2000’s there were probably 15 or even 20 different 23 degree small block Chevy heads.

Outside of what I consider minor port volume differences they were the same head.

Magazines would do shootouts to show a clear winner but the only real winners were the manufacturers who got cheap advertising knowing they wouldn’t get shat on in the results.

 

[B3422w5]

lol that’s the truth.

In 1988 Chrysler guys were appalled that I was shifting a bracket car at 8200.

It got worse years later when on certain days I shifted at 9k.

It’s a viscous cycle that keeps retarding the parts we can buy.

These manufacturers know that 90% of these guys will never see over 7k and an honest 600 hp so they know that the already Uber small market is even smaller than it appears.

That’s why they keep making the same head with a different name on them.

It’s not new though. In the late 1990’s and early 2000’s there were probably 15 or even 20 different 23 degree small block Chevy heads.

Outside of what I consider minor port volume differences they were the same head.

Magazines would do shootouts to show a clear winner but the only real winners were the manufacturers who got cheap advertising knowing they wouldn’t get shat on in the results.

It’s expensive to race, even bracket race. I know, have done it a good bit, forever.
These days, with the advent of stroker cranks, first the 3.79 deal, and more recently 4 inch plus stuff, there is zero need to turn a bunch of rpm.
Bracket racing is all about repeatability and reliability. Rpm isn’t a need to do that.

 

[Danny Bellmore]

If the best you got out of a W5 head was 300 the guy was a hack and I don’t care who that was.

No wonder your **** didn’t run with them.

I posted above how I’d fix the W5.

In fact, I’ll say publicly if I had a fresh set of unmolested castings I could easily get 375 out of a W5 head.

FACT.

And it would burn fuel with a combustion chamber that’s far better than most people think.

I don’t need to assume what you don’t know. You don’t know induction and you’re proving it here.

Edit: 400 CFM if I could weld on them.

If I find a set of unmolested W5’s would you be interested in porting them?