Yeah, Crane was a brand I forgot.
Lifter Failure
- Thread starter Gator
- Start date
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Yeah, Crane was a brand I forgot.
I think one area that sometime is overlooked is lash or preload and valve spring pressure . I like my valve train to be just a little sloppy during break-in to avoid any possibility of the lifter going solid against the cam lobe. Also I feel that it is imperative that the engine fire quickly and break in to start almost immediately.
All I know is, when I was in High School in 1986, we stuck a Crane Cam with new Lifters in my 360, and didn't check anything except for inspecting the Cam Bearings visually and with the fingers for smoothness. Just lubed it properly and put it in. Motor had about 85,000 miles on it. No ticks or bad Lifters and Cam had no issues. Put a second Cam in after a rebuild (10 years earlier) in about 2000 from Comp Cams, and same thing. No inspection on the Lifters at all. Just lubed everything with new Timing Chain and Gears and put it in. Same Cam and lifters in there today with no ticks, no bad Lifter, and the Cam is good!
Good idea on cam break in is to use light pressure single coil valve springs.
Once the cam is broke in well, then you switch out the valve springs to the recommended ones for cam installed.
High lift cam grinds and high pressure valve springs kill camshafts.
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Once the cam is broke in well, then you switch out the valve springs to the recommended ones for cam installed.
High lift cam grinds and high pressure valve springs kill camshafts.
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MOPAROFFICIAL
If it has tits, it's a liabilititty.
What did you lube the cam and lifters with upon start up/break in?
I'll throw another crazy theory out there, 'cause I can,.........My former co-worker Jose used a penetrating lube spray that I love,.Wurth HHS-K,...on the hinges/detents of His Mercedes. After it set up a few seconds later He started working the door back & forth and it started making a creaking/screeching noise that wouldn't go away, I told Him to spray it to wash out the lube, all quiet....the car has ball bearings in the detent mechanism, the lube was so slippery they started skidding instead of rolling.............maybe ...just maybe, all of the super-duper ultra slick stuff is TOO good & doesn't apply enough turning friction to the lifter...
*EDIT* Remember, the DC/MP Elco compound was to be used for cam break-in only, & to be drained/oil changed out right after break-in was completed,......friction modifier anybody??
*EDIT* Remember, the DC/MP Elco compound was to be used for cam break-in only, & to be drained/oil changed out right after break-in was completed,......friction modifier anybody??
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jos51700
Green Bearing thread connoisseur
I have a suspicion that ANYONE that works for comp or Edelbrock aren't doing ANYTHING car related after work.
I think it's this. I used Mobil 1 and picked the one with the ZDDP in it, and did the additives and cam lube and all that. And....
My 360 munched 3 or 4 lifters on a new Comp cam. This was in '05.
But I'm not ******* with any of that ever again. Roller cams from now on.
Lifter turning or not, he had to have had his high pressure double valve springs in there at first break in to totally destroy that lifter like that.
Being the new camshaft lobes outter edges are so sharp, they can actually cut you when working with them.
Eliminating any unforeseen problems, I take and sand back those sharp lobe edges with 240 grit emery cloth by hand prior to final cleanup and install of the new camshaft. Fussy and it takes time, but feel it's worth the effort.
If things happen to go bad, they are not going to chew like pictured above. Putting a lot less metal particles into a fresh engine.
Here is a well used stock 1974 318 cam with 100,000 miles on it and the lobes are starting to go flat. (probably from poor oil changes)
Lifters only showing slight cupping, but yes they are worn but not destroyed.
Running on stock single 318 valve springs by the way, and the lower lift original stock cam.
☆☆☆☆☆
Being the new camshaft lobes outter edges are so sharp, they can actually cut you when working with them.
Eliminating any unforeseen problems, I take and sand back those sharp lobe edges with 240 grit emery cloth by hand prior to final cleanup and install of the new camshaft. Fussy and it takes time, but feel it's worth the effort.
If things happen to go bad, they are not going to chew like pictured above. Putting a lot less metal particles into a fresh engine.
Here is a well used stock 1974 318 cam with 100,000 miles on it and the lobes are starting to go flat. (probably from poor oil changes)
Lifters only showing slight cupping, but yes they are worn but not destroyed.
Running on stock single 318 valve springs by the way, and the lower lift original stock cam.
☆☆☆☆☆
Gator
Mopar or No Car
That was years ago and I cannot recall who made it.
Gator
Mopar or No Car
Their was NO double springs. Single springs
All of my recent failures have been with single springs with less than 130 on the seat. Find a new theory.
It's a shame that's where We're at in 2025, all the tech & advances, yet a simple & relatively reliable valvetrain system has become a gamble equal to a Vegas Ringside wager............
So that explains the other 15 lifters that don't look like that.........
.......there are thousands of cams w/single springs that did exactly this in the recycle dumpster.I agree, detailing & cleaning/deburring/breaking sharp edges is always good practice (except trans valves, if they're free, clean & leave them be), but clearly this tappet failed to rotate.
........uhmm, post #11...???, & He's already shown examples of what is going on with improper lifter facing in a number of other threads......I swear, it looks like they've got a chinese kid in front of a bench grinder w/a piece of 1/2" angle iron welded to the rest, givin' 'em a couple of twirls & tosses 'em in a box for the next kid to put in the package.
Yea that recycled Toyota tin doesn't make for a very good lifter or cam. lol
Maybe the tin, but I'll take recycled Toyota steel any day. I just changed out the dr.frt. hub brg in the '06 'rolla w/a kit using the OEM Koyo brg., I hit a fresh gaping chuck-hole in the winter almost 3yrs. ago buried in slush w/a fresh 1" dusting of snow, BAM!!! Mother F'er, sure enough a week later it started to lightly hum, when I changed it(yes, almost 3yrs later) it was growling bad enough to make the key ring/keys sing to Me! But I checked it repeatedly, no play, & easy to turn by hand....life & circumstances put it on the backburner as long as I was confident it was safe....sure felt good to get it out of there......
.....at 230K
It's the mixture that's bad. lol
PRH
Well-Known Member
I feel that all of the cam/lifter options for the street/strip crowd have potential pitfalls.
In my mind the possibility of a HR lifter having a mechanical failure has a lower probability of happening than having a FT cam or lifter fail.
It seems that on the car forums I frequent, a failed FT cam is almost a weekly occurrence.
That being said, for some applications a FT cam makes sense.
With that in mind, I have recently sold two HFT cams that will be getting used with the new DLC coated lifters from Comp.
Both of these cams utilize rather mild lobes and are being nitrided.
Fingers are crossed it will pan out.
One of these is a new build, the other is a simple in-car cam swap(downsizing).
I would have put a HR in the new build, but the customer just doesn’t like HR cams.
In my mind the possibility of a HR lifter having a mechanical failure has a lower probability of happening than having a FT cam or lifter fail.
It seems that on the car forums I frequent, a failed FT cam is almost a weekly occurrence.
That being said, for some applications a FT cam makes sense.
With that in mind, I have recently sold two HFT cams that will be getting used with the new DLC coated lifters from Comp.
Both of these cams utilize rather mild lobes and are being nitrided.
Fingers are crossed it will pan out.
One of these is a new build, the other is a simple in-car cam swap(downsizing).
I would have put a HR in the new build, but the customer just doesn’t like HR cams.
MOPAROFFICIAL
If it has tits, it's a liabilititty.
Bad luck for some.. wrong lube or not enough 'coat the entire lifter and finger bang the lifter bores with lube1st'..
.. bad lifters sometimes that are knicked..Ive more than once requested extras for bad out of the box beat up lifters before... I think there was one or guys who's cam had zero lobe taper, thats neat.
Spring pressure.. you want about 5500rpm worth of spring lol
As in..not enough to keep the valves from float over 55-6000 rpm...aka around 300ish lbs open for a sft/hft in the average to mild street strip
Bummer to have one go flat...
Grey area of whether the bearings were plowed like a field or not...Check the bearings if you lost multipe lobes or completely rounded off one.
In the case of the OP, id pull it and have a look.. its already half way there anyways with the bib and hat pulled off.
.. bad lifters sometimes that are knicked..Ive more than once requested extras for bad out of the box beat up lifters before... I think there was one or guys who's cam had zero lobe taper, thats neat.
Spring pressure.. you want about 5500rpm worth of spring lol
As in..not enough to keep the valves from float over 55-6000 rpm...aka around 300ish lbs open for a sft/hft in the average to mild street strip
Bummer to have one go flat...
Grey area of whether the bearings were plowed like a field or not...Check the bearings if you lost multipe lobes or completely rounded off one.
In the case of the OP, id pull it and have a look.. its already half way there anyways with the bib and hat pulled off.
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Inertia
Well-Known Member
I'll share my theory,
I always use a brake cylinder stone hone and make a few passes thru each lifter bore. I question how much heat affects the diameter of the bore, and also wonder how much the "new" lifter materials expand with heat .
Spinning the lifters cold is fine, vs at running temp, thus the marking of the lifter, and observing it turning while running at temp is important.
I also always cut/grind an oil "squirt" hole in the rod shell if the shells come without,.
I believe that extra oil shot up to "lube the cyls" also had a lot to do with lube and cooling to the lifters/cam. I'm very aware of why the oil hole went away, but this works for me.
Never had a cam/lifter fail cuzza wear. ( I'm sitting on a wooden chair, touching my wooden side table, and will knock on my wooden coffee table when I get up).
I won't use anything Comp . .
Good luck
I always use a brake cylinder stone hone and make a few passes thru each lifter bore. I question how much heat affects the diameter of the bore, and also wonder how much the "new" lifter materials expand with heat .
Spinning the lifters cold is fine, vs at running temp, thus the marking of the lifter, and observing it turning while running at temp is important.
I also always cut/grind an oil "squirt" hole in the rod shell if the shells come without,.
I believe that extra oil shot up to "lube the cyls" also had a lot to do with lube and cooling to the lifters/cam. I'm very aware of why the oil hole went away, but this works for me.
Never had a cam/lifter fail cuzza wear. ( I'm sitting on a wooden chair, touching my wooden side table, and will knock on my wooden coffee table when I get up).
I won't use anything Comp . .
Good luck
MOPAROFFICIAL
If it has tits, it's a liabilititty.
It's pathetic how many failures they have.
The quality control on lifters is next to none, as in zero. I just put some 821 on a used purple 528 ..no problems.. but thats only because I knew to inspect and replace the knicked. I put the faces together and roll check them too, always a good idea. If they don't have a very very slight roll on them, they won't spin.
NC Engine Builder
Grumpy Old Man
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I do them daily, no issues
Dave999
Well-Known Member
well this is what i think based on what i have done and what i have read
i clean the cam, use the red torco stuff and check they all spin by drawing lines in white paint on my pushrods....+ luck. I build a motor about once in 5-10 years so not a lot
but i'm careful......
zddp isn't a lube, its a chemical coating that increases friction, but protects while its doing so. Its the phosphorus bit chemically bonding onto steel and iron parts in layers. Each bit of friction against it takes the surface off it, leaving a base for the next coating. like shaving some velvet.... and it miraculously re growing its velvety texture, underneath the coating the lifter face is work hardening. you need to hit a different section of the lifter face each time to allow the coating to coat back.
a great ZDDP package in an oil can be made worthless by the detergent package in the oil. The detergent package is another bunch of chemicals, sodium and magnesium compounds etc they can dick about with the phosphorus in the ZDDP and ruin its ZDDP additive like benefits.
Your cam and lifters come from the factory with some crappy waxy oily coating on them to stop them rusting in the package.. clean it off with brake cleaner, otherwise, what is it doing in respect to the zddp coating, or your assembly lube. it is tenacious stuff
the ZDDP additive packages you can buy. You are pouring in a pint of what? into your carefully formulated oil? they list the active ingredients on the additive bottle, but what is the rest of that gloop, paraffin? diesel? cheap base oil? and what does it do to your "good" oil.
If ZDDP coats stuff, its gonna coat stuff i.e the inside of the lifter bore the outside of the lifter body and on a hydraulic lifter the surfaces of the pump up piston inside... too much can be a bad thing, this stuff increases friction, that is not appropriate everywhere.
in high volume it will coat on thick, like paint, that might not be a good thing....
i could be wrong, i could be right....
Dave
i clean the cam, use the red torco stuff and check they all spin by drawing lines in white paint on my pushrods....+ luck. I build a motor about once in 5-10 years so not a lot
but i'm careful......
zddp isn't a lube, its a chemical coating that increases friction, but protects while its doing so. Its the phosphorus bit chemically bonding onto steel and iron parts in layers. Each bit of friction against it takes the surface off it, leaving a base for the next coating. like shaving some velvet.... and it miraculously re growing its velvety texture, underneath the coating the lifter face is work hardening. you need to hit a different section of the lifter face each time to allow the coating to coat back.
a great ZDDP package in an oil can be made worthless by the detergent package in the oil. The detergent package is another bunch of chemicals, sodium and magnesium compounds etc they can dick about with the phosphorus in the ZDDP and ruin its ZDDP additive like benefits.
Your cam and lifters come from the factory with some crappy waxy oily coating on them to stop them rusting in the package.. clean it off with brake cleaner, otherwise, what is it doing in respect to the zddp coating, or your assembly lube. it is tenacious stuff
the ZDDP additive packages you can buy. You are pouring in a pint of what? into your carefully formulated oil? they list the active ingredients on the additive bottle, but what is the rest of that gloop, paraffin? diesel? cheap base oil? and what does it do to your "good" oil.
If ZDDP coats stuff, its gonna coat stuff i.e the inside of the lifter bore the outside of the lifter body and on a hydraulic lifter the surfaces of the pump up piston inside... too much can be a bad thing, this stuff increases friction, that is not appropriate everywhere.
in high volume it will coat on thick, like paint, that might not be a good thing....
i could be wrong, i could be right....
Dave
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Dave999
Well-Known Member
one other thing
i have no real say on the position of my cam in respect to the lobe lifter interaction
i can use standard sprockets or Romac sprockets that's it.. and they both put the cam in the same place. and i run a nylon button...
In both cases the cam lobes are offset from the lifter to promote spin and the cam lobes are taller on one side there is a slant to the lobe.
all of this aims to drive the cam back into the block and help the lifters turn
if you cam floats forward and the lobes align with the centre of each lifter the slope will still promote some turning If it is there......!
we have been blaming lifters
maybe it is the cams?
maybe its the cam sprockets, pulling the cams too far forward
maybe or maybe not ......
if the lifter doesn't turn and gets wiped out id expect it to be chewed away with an offset...
if its right across the middle. something else is wrong
dave
i have no real say on the position of my cam in respect to the lobe lifter interaction
i can use standard sprockets or Romac sprockets that's it.. and they both put the cam in the same place. and i run a nylon button...
In both cases the cam lobes are offset from the lifter to promote spin and the cam lobes are taller on one side there is a slant to the lobe.
all of this aims to drive the cam back into the block and help the lifters turn
if you cam floats forward and the lobes align with the centre of each lifter the slope will still promote some turning If it is there......!
we have been blaming lifters
maybe it is the cams?
maybe its the cam sprockets, pulling the cams too far forward
maybe or maybe not ......
if the lifter doesn't turn and gets wiped out id expect it to be chewed away with an offset...
if its right across the middle. something else is wrong
dave
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