New cooling system, still overheating.

So, I had my engine rebuilt in Jan 2012. Put about 15 - 20 thou on it. June 2013 it iverheated because the radiator went bad so I put in a 26 inch 3 row Champion. Then a few weeks ago I started seeing rust in the coolant. Then full on blockage as top tube could not push coolant into rad.
So, buy another radiator, change thermostat, put on brand new water pump. New top tube and lower tube this weekend as well.


Still overheating.

Although now, top tube is just barely hot and bottom tube is just warm, so that lets me know rad is working.

Sounds like I have a busted head gasket to me but I wanted to run it by others.

Do a leakdown test and look for bubbles in the coolant

So we are supposed to believe......

that in 18 months....your freshly rebuilt engine regurgitated enough rust to Clog your radiator inlet so bad that coolant wouldnt flow? Your Block wasnt flushed before install?

Then you put a new radiator, water pump, thermostat, and Hoses on it....and it still gets warm?.....like what 230?

Without any tempature #'s......description of your Fan/Shroud setup, and whether or not your cooling system holds pressure.....You want us to make a GUESS?

Is your water pump/fan belt worn out? :banghead:

•When does it get hot? On the highway or at idle?
•What is the actual temperature?
•Are you sure your cap is good?
•Does your lower hose have a spring in it to keep it from collapsing and restricting flow?
•Did you verify that your new thermostat is good by tossing it in a pan of water, heating the pan of water and noting the temp when the thermostat opens (this is almost mandatory with todays crappy replacement parts).
•Are you running coolant or straight water?

Every time I install a new radiator, a newly rebuilt engine or tear into the water pump area. I use a small section of hardware cloth= stiff screen with holes big enough to stick the full sized small ink tube of a ball point pen through the holes or slightly larger. It's available at almost any hardware store. Shaped over something the size of a shot glass, so it will fit inside the upper radiator inlet about 2 1/2 inches. Leave enough to fold the extra over the outside of the inlet to secure it in place when the upper hose is put back on to keep the formed screen from making its way into the radiator. A 1/2 inch of folded back screen will be as small and as far back over the outside of the radiator upper inlet as you would want it to go.

They sell these screens commercially, but for like $25 or $30 bucks, or make your own for a few cents.

Slide the upper radiator hose over the outer screen and tighten up the clamp just beyond the ends of the screen. Start and run your car through several heat cycles. Check the screen right after the first heat cycle to insure you haven't caught so much gunk that the screen is clogging and will block all flow of water into the radiator. You can start the car cold with the radiator cap off and watch * feel the flow of warm/hot water coming past the thermostat. If the flow suddenly diminishes or slows dramatically, the screen could be filling up quickly. Let the car cool, remove the screen, clean it and re-install it, and then increase your cleaning intervals to match the amount of debris it's catching.

You might be amazed at what it catches, even out of a seriously cleaned out block that's already been on a dyno. I left mine in for about a week before removing it, as it stopped picking up particles of debris. Once I was done, I had nearly a half a coffee cup full of debris ranging from gooey white aluminum corrosion to chicks of rusty cast iron and gosh knows what else!

All this would be in the cooling tubes of my new radiator had I not taken this simple precaution.

Best to use reverse osmosis water with high quality coolant. Deionized water has all the minerals taken out of it and it is hungry for some minerals. That's why its such a good final rinse when used in a Hudson Type sprayer after washing your car. It removes almost all the hard water spots before you can dry thee car.

I also added the radiator cap mounted (by a small chain) anode from Napa to help neutralize any electrolysis. All my electrolysis stopped after about 3 days with this contraption. I use radiator PH test strips to verify the condition of my coolant these days, especially with the increased use of aluminum parts along with the cast iron.

Part of your troubleshooting should be to pull your radiator tip it upside down and back flush it with a garden hose. Use rags and the radiator cap to plug the openings and a rag wrapped around the hose to build up some pressure before you pull the bottom "plugs" out, so you really get some water flushing the crude out of the top of your cooling tubes inside the radiator.

Also pull your thermostat when the radiator is out, and using a rag wrapped around the hose, back flush your block and heater core for 10 or 15 minutes. If you have any lower block plugs you can unscrew to assist with the flushing process, remove them too.
The comments from the guys above are also great suggestions. Get yourself one of those inexpensive laser heat detector guns at Harbor Freight and use it. Check before and after the thermostat, the engine in various areas and the radiator and hoses. Publish the results on here. There are a lot of smart people on this site, some smart in their heads and some on the other end...lol

Learn the heat flow of your engine, so you can tell where and when something is going wrong in the future....once you get this fixed first of course.

Good luck.

Over heating problem could be a lot of things. It is best to have someone with knowledge look at the car.

I fought mine for a long time. Everything was new. Radiator was from a car that was newly puchace and installed in a car I bought.The rad was a be-cool extra heavy duty Rad . flushed and flowed fine. Electric pump and dual fans. So when it would get hot I would shut it off and let the pump and fans run. It would take a long time to cool down.

I thought it was getting air bound so I put a bleeder in the pump. and put the rad. cap on the motor and bleed hoses on the motor and the rad,

One day I got out of the car with the hood open and a hat on. Fans were running.I didn't feel the air like my other car.My first thought was the fans were spinning backward but they were not.

I put a piece of paper on the front of the rad and it fell off. I came to find out that the tubes in the rad were expanded and would not let air flow through the rad.Either it froze or the other car blew a head gasket. It took a long time to find that easy but expensive fix.

That said good luck.

I wanted to load some pics of the system I have and found pics I never knew were there. Here's something to look at.

Oldmanmopar said:

... I came to find out that the tubes in the rad were expanded and would not let air flow through the rad.Either it froze or the other car blew a head gasket. It took a long time to find that easy but expensive fix.

....

Click to expand...

Wow. That'll drive you nuts. Good job on the persistence.

Is it overheating because you are seeing it on the gauge or is it spewing? If you are relying on a gauge then invest in an infrared heat gun and take some actual temperature readings in different locations.

If it is actually overheating then also look at the fan clutch if it has one.

Prine said:

So we are supposed to believe......

Is your water pump/fan belt worn out? :banghead:

Click to expand...

Why would I lie about getting stuck on the side of the road a few times with my top radiator hose hissing like a tea kettle and my engine making crunchy metal sounds?

Everything is new and replaced within the last 9 days:
fan clutch
then thermostat
then radiator, radiator cap, water pump, top hose, lower hose
never have used a fan shroud

for proof I will upload pics of my old/original copper rad, the champion one that got rusted out as well as the new cheapy chinese made Murray one I bought from the 24hrs Oreilly (in Houston we have 24hrs Oreilly and Autozone) last week in a pinch as I needed to make it to work in the morning by 6am.


At first I was running 50/50 mix. But the wise azz that I am read on this forum that I could run pure water so I started doing that.
And that's when I got stuck in traffic for 90mins on the way home one day and it started blowing white smoke and didn't want to shut off.
I believe that is when I blew the gasket.
Next morning she started up and was fine for 6 months or so.
Then, about 2 months ago problems started happening again with water/coolant loss.
Then the rust
Then overheating.

I will pickup a infrared thermometer and grab some readings.

Any idea where I should take my readings?

d100clubcab said:

Why would I lie about getting stuck on the side of the road a few times with my top radiator hose hissing like a tea kettle and my engine making crunchy metal sounds?

Everything is new and replaced within the last 9 days:
fan clutch
then thermostat
then radiator, radiator cap, water pump, top hose, lower hose
never have used a fan shroud

for proof I will upload pics of my old/original copper rad, the champion one that got rusted out as well as the new cheapy chinese made Murray one I bought from the 24hrs Oreilly (in Houston we have 24hrs Oreilly and Autozone) last week in a pinch as I needed to make it to work in the morning by 6am.


At first I was running 50/50 mix. But the wise azz that I am read on this forum that I could run pure water so I started doing that.
And that's when I got stuck in traffic for 90mins on the way home one day and it started blowing white smoke and didn't want to shut off.
I believe that is when I blew the gasket.
Next morning she started up and was fine for 6 months or so.
Then, about 2 months ago problems started happening again with water/coolant loss.
Then the rust
Then overheating.

I will pickup a infrared thermometer and grab some readings.

Any idea where I should take my readings?

Click to expand...

You can run pure water. But you ABSOLUTELY MUST run a quality coolant additive that has lubrication, anti rust, anti electolysis properties. ALL of those properties minimum.

Your car did not overheat past 200 degrees just because it was running pure water. It got rust buildup and blockage or you still have some inherent cause of your cooling issue. And seems you still have it.

1968FormulaS340 said:

•When does it get hot? On the highway or at idle?
•What is the actual temperature?
•Are you sure your cap is good?
•Does your lower hose have a spring in it to keep it from collapsing and restricting flow?
•Did you verify that your new thermostat is good by tossing it in a pan of water, heating the pan of water and noting the temp when the thermostat opens (this is almost mandatory with todays crappy replacement parts).
•Are you running coolant or straight water?

Click to expand...

1. after driving for about 15 mins. I will never let it idle for that long.
2. dont know actual temp, will buy thermometer today
3. brand new 16lbs cap. works better than the old 13lbs cap
4. yes, it has spring in lower hose
5. didnt toss in pan of hot water but when cold top tube is flimsy, when engine is warmed up it gets filled with water. also, i removed top tube and ran at idle, after about 5-10 mins the thermostat began gushing
6. straight water

autoxcuda said:

You can run pure water. But you ABSOLUTELY MUST run an coolant additive that has lubrication, anti rust, anti electolysis properties.

Your car did not overheat past 200 degrees just because it was running pure water. It got rust buildup and blockage or you still have some inherent cause of your cooling issue. And seems you still have it.

Click to expand...

I had no problems before it overheated in traffic that first time. I think that did me in.
I don't see rust in the passages now. No more brown water. Everything is clear and it still runs hot (albeit it takes a few more mins for it to overheat now).

Never assume a blown head gasket without doing some tests, as suggested above. Get the $15 compression gage kit at Harbor Freight. If 2 adjacent cylinders are low, suspect a breach between them. Connect compressed air to the HF hose (has air fitting) and find where it is going. A leak to the coolant would hiss & bubble at the radiator cap. There are also chemical sniffer kits to test that. One usually gets oil in the coolant if a head gasket leak to coolant. You will see a brown mousse floating at the top. I ran my 82 Aries like that for a few months one summer before junking it. I would fill w/ water each day and could drive 22 mi to work on the interstate. It would boil over each day as I got home, w/ more brown slimy gunk in the coolant.

Wow, sorry to hear about your troubles.

Since you are experiencing rust (have in the past) as an insurance policy, you need to pull radiator and either professionally back flush it or do it yourself.

It would be best to pull your thermostat and back flush your whole motor and cooling system with the radiator out.

Like said above, you can run distilled water but must have an excellent corrosion protection additive designed to run in a water-only system. I am not good at figuring this radiator chemistry stuff out so I run 50/50 pre-mix because it is guaranteed to work in most climates. If your system is prone to rust issues, I would change coolant and flush the system once a year and run full of premix 50/50 and keep a gallon in the trunk incase you need to top it off while you are on the road so you don't have to use tap water.

Since you are prone to having rust issues, also I agree that you need to protect your radiator at all times with a screen on the top hose, or a ganofilter. Here is the ganofilter which may periodically clog with gunk but will prevent the ruining and clogging of your radiator. I suggest the clear one so you can see when it is dirty and clean it out.

http://www.ganofilters.com/


It all sounds like debris and rust is or has clogged your radiator which leads to all your other problems.

d100clubcab said:

I will pickup a infrared thermometer and grab some readings.

Any idea where I should take my readings?

Click to expand...

Basically all over.
Radiator hose, both upper and lower.
Radiator in different spots.
Water pump.
Intake.
Thermostat housing.
Engine block and heads in different spots.

What you are looking for is how much variation there is. Say the intake is really hot and the upper radiator hose is, really cool then the thermostat would be worth checking out.

I meant no offense....but my "So we're supposed to believe".....I apologize.

Oklacarcollecto said:

Basically all over.
Radiator hose, both upper and lower.
Radiator in different spots.
Water pump.
Intake.
Thermostat housing.
Engine block and heads in different spots.

What you are looking for is how much variation there is. Say the intake is really hot and the upper radiator hose is, really cool then the thermostat would be worth checking out.

Click to expand...

All these numbers are off a immediately turned off engine that was driving around town for 45 mins or so

Top Rad Hose near thermostat 200
Top Rad Hose near rad inlet 180
Bottom Rad Hose 166
Water Pump inlet 155
Intake to Pump hose 199
Front side driver's head 224
Front side pass head 211 (several mins after drivers)
Pass exhaust 266
front of carb 138
Rad cap 113
Top of Plastic Rad Tank each side of Cap 186
Aluminum Intake 219

They didn't have the leakdown tester so couldn't do that.
But as I started my truck to back out of Autozone, clouds of white smoke came out like I was stoking a beehive.
And it stumbles when I first start it up. To me, that sounds like it has water in the cylinders.
I don't want it to be, but it sounds like it is.

pics


http://imgur.com/XEgvkcs
http://imgur.com/k32heDZ
http://imgur.com/LumBzTO
http://imgur.com/ywqlxPY

belts are not routed correctly for one . Are you sure you have the correct rotation fan and pump combo. They make two different directions for serpatine belt cars. Just a thought. My friend had the wrong fan . it would only heat up when the hood was closed when you were moving. Sat there with the hood open for an hour ran cool. Noticed it when I told him to tap the key to check the fan clutch. Ya never know.

I think you know now what you need to do. sorry:happy1:
White smoke and all.

Oldmanmopar said:

belts are not routed correctly for one . Are you sure you have the correct rotation fan and pump combo. They make two different directions for serpatine belt cars. Just a thought. My friend had the wrong fan . it would only heat up when the hood was closed when you were moving. Sat there with the hood open for an hour ran cool. Noticed it when I told him to tap the key to check the fan clutch. Ya never know.

Click to expand...

I've ran the belts this way for years. Old ratty radiator, no problem. Then the fins on that finally goes out and I get an aluminum radiator and 8 months later, problems.
Plus, I see no other way to route the belts.

Pump fins turn the correct way.
I googled around and learned about marine pumps turning the opposite direction so I made sure.
Fans and fan clutch work correctly. Stick a plastic bag to the front of the radiator and it sticks

Good news is, it did not puke coolant or overheat on the way home today.
maybe because it was only 81 instead of 95 outside.

I will get better pics of the belts setup and search through my online pic folder for older belt setup pics to make sure the belts haven't changed.

The only thing this is doing is pushing me closer to a 408 build or 2009+ Hemi swap faster.
I wanted to upgrade, just not before summer. I'd rather do some heads in a weekend than have my truck down for a week because of a swap.

here's an old pic from Jan 2012 with the setup the way it has been forever:

https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-.../AAAAAAAAAy8/YkNFsCAUGqA/s615/my_engine_2.jpg

And thanks guys.
You really know your stuff.

I would pull all the spark plugs, drain the cooling system and then do a compression test to see if I could find out what cylinder(s) is/are affected.

You've only got 14* difference between the upper and lower hose.. Most times I've checked,, the temp diff is up to 50* +..

Your rad's not losing enuff heat.. or there's no/low circulation..

Are there any cool areas of your rad, shooting it from the front,, any cool areas don't have hot water in them, (plugged).. or expanded tubes (as mentioned) blocking airflow in a large specific area..

hope it helps

:rambo: White smoke???
Headgaskets.....ops:

Sorry to hear.....At least their cheap....and relatively easy to fix.....