4 speed identification

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blmopar1

blmopar1

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I know of a 4 speed out of a 1968 340 barracuda for sale and was woundering if the are any charts that will have what all the numbers on the outside casting signify. What is a trans like this worth, all original never rebuilt. Thanks
 
I try to discourage guys from being too "number happy," why? Because (tell me again) how old is this gearbox? You don't think? that in 30-50 years, it could have a different gearset, or even just be part of a gearbox with other parts tacked on?

Determine for sure if it's an OD unit. The absolute certain / sure way to do that is put it into "4 speed 3rd gear" That is, starting in neutral, rotate the 3-4 shift shaft CLockwise. This puts a 4 speed into 3rd, and an OD into the OD gear

Now rotate the input shaft 1 exact turn, and watch the output. Less than 1 turn = 4 speed, more than 1 turn = OD box

Of course eyeball the tail shaft and make sure it's right for whatever you are going to put it in. Someone posted this the other day, I'd forgotten: "Big Block Dart" tech pages:

http://www.bigblockdart.com/techpages/techindex.shtml
 
The original owners brother has it from the 68 340 and said its the original trans never rebuilt . It was yanked out of the car 40 years ago when his brother totaled the car.
 
blmopar1 said:
I know of a 4 speed out of a 1968 340 barracuda for sale and was woundering if the are any charts that will have what all the numbers on the outside casting signify. What is a trans like this worth, all original never rebuilt. Thanks
Click to expand...

I can't help you with value except to say I paid $425 for a nice useable unit, and $350 for a core, the last 2 A-body trans purchased,,

The overdrive trans generally had an imput bearing retainer measuring over 5 inches..

Regardless of the numbers,, the side cover should be removed to inspect the gears for wear and broken teeth, which will help determine a value.,

When you take the side cover off,, there are identifying marks on the gears that'll ID the trans you have.. see link..

http://www.brewersperformance.com/orderinfo.htm

I believe the 2:47,, ( 3-ring) trans is the close ratio, commonly desired trans,, and likely was original in that vehicle,, but anything is poss..

hope it helps... cheers
 
Just FYI
40 years ago, makes it 1970. So it would be a low-mileage unit.It sounds like it could be a gem.
Since I was a transmission rebuilder at one time, I, of course would go through it.
On the other-hand you could probably slam it in and go. To you, that could make it worth a little more. Not having to purchase;bearings, gaskets, seals,and blocker-rings, plus labor, can add significantly to an initial purchase. I have had to charge as much as $850Can to recondition those.(no hard parts)
Best of luck to you.
 
It's all stories until you see and inspect what's really there. Might have been worn hard early in life too.

Open the cover and inspect it. Inspect the engaging teeth, look for pitting from condensation from 40 years of storage, etc, etc.
 
I thought I'd jump into this thread.

I'm swapping a 273 into a '64 Dart GT which currently has a /6 and auto trans. I'm having problems with terminology and don't see an exact parallel to what I have and what I want to do. If it's there, I don't know enough to recognize it. Sorry.

Stuff I currently have:

273 motor w/o flywheel/clutch, clutch fork, or throwout bearing.
Cast iron 833. It looks like a short housing and PO says it was from a car. Date code says it's from 12/4/'75. Numbers are 6B143802 (top) and PP833 5242 (bottom).
Bell housing. Cast number 3743859 (top) and 05505 1 (middle), and 76? followed by some sort of dot code in boxes - 2, 3, 3, 3, 1
Hurst shifter and shift rods
Linkage plate
Clutch "down rod"?
Pedal assembly
Stock 7.25" pumpkin

I've read the Brewer's Performance ID sheet and it has the interlock-style inspection plate. See the pics below.

Bad things I see:

- Threads on the rearward shifter rod are stripped. The front one doesn't look top notch, either.
- Two half-broken teeth on the gear in the middle. No others seen.
- Some corrosion on gear teeth.
- Looks like a broken shaft part behind inspection plate cover
- Looks like the U-shaped fork tip is broken.

A bunch of questions:

1). Does this trans have a slip-yoke driveline?
2). Will the bell housing bolt up to the '66 273 and trans?
3). Will I have to do a hump replacement for the shifter? Will I have to replace the frame cross member or will the /6 version work?
4). Is the trans a 3-speed w/OD or a 4-speed, or are they the same thing? Gears progress from smallest to largest, front to back.
5). The two fork-like pieces were loose in the case. Am I missing some pieces?
6). Two of the inspection plate bolts did not have collars below the head. Correct or not?
7). Will the front of the main shaft fit with the 273?
:cool:. If it's stock, what are the gear ratios?
9). Is this thing a boat anchor or worth the effort/cost to put it proper? I got it for about $200.

I'm sure I need a rebuild - no history supplied and broken teeth. Synchros appear to be OK. I don't know about gaskets and seals.

Thanks for your response. GR
 

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Does the gearbox retainer fit the bellhousing hole? Do some research and make sure it's a pass car and not a pickup bell (You want the small flywheel)

Determine if it's an overdrive or "straight through" gearbox. To do that put the gearbox in 3rd gear. Do so by moving the 3/ 4 slider to the rear as per the arrow. Rotate the input exactly one turn while watching the tail shaft. If the tail turns LESS than 1 turn, it's a "straight through" 4 speed. If it turns somewhat MORE than one turn, it's an OD box

And yes that's a "slip yoke" gearbox. If it were not, it would have a bolt on drive flange at the rear

I cannot tell if that's a V8, SB, BB, or slant bell, but it looks like a SB. I don't know if the later bells will fit the older bodies

The broken teeth are 2nd gear

the "actual gears" visible in your photo are left to right on the mainshaft....3rd, 2nd, the straight cut gear is reverse, and the large helical one at the far right is 1st

If you don't have a shop manual, wander over to MyMopar and download "a couple." some of them came from the guys here on FABO

http://www.mymopar.com/index.php?pid=31
 

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The gearbox retainer, assuming it's the one that the main shaft exits through on the front, does fit within the hole in the BH. It doesn't mate up flat because of what I assume is the secondary shaft that protrudes underneath the main shaft. I don't see a hole for it and don't know if is supposed to be inside (see new pic above). Wouldn't the casting numbers (listed above) tell us if it's supposed to be in a car?

I downloaded a manual for the '66 Dart/Coronet this morning. I'll spend a little time with it to see what I can glean relevant to the questions above. I suppose I also need to download the '75 version.

I notice the tip of the U-shaped fork looks broken (see last pic). Is it supposed to look like the tip of the "?" fork?

The seller stated it was from a passenger car and not a truck. People say whatever. He also stated it was a 3-speed OD box. Applying your instructions, it looks like a 4-speed box.

There is another trans available from the same guy. Aluminum case. No other information on it at this time. If it's in better shape (not so much broken stuff), I'll try to work a swap using guilt and hassle as bargaining chips.

Thanks for your help on this, Sensei.
 
The aluminum case would be a od unit.
 
The 6B in the partial VIN means it came from a 1976 model year car built at the Hamtramck plant, so not a truck for sure, it has to be from an A body or an F body car.
 
It's obvious by looking at the gears with the cover off its an overdrive. There's almost no way the original poster can tell that the synchros are good by looking at the outside of them. If it was me I'd try and get $200 for it and start with one much better than that. you'll be into it damn near as much as it would cost to buy a new one from Brewers or rebuilt one. Oh yeah, and still have an overdrive. But if you do decide to rebuild it you will get a free education.
 
gorgerider said:
It doesn't mate up flat because of what I assume is the secondary shaft that protrudes underneath the main shaft. I don't see a hole for it and don't know if is supposed to be inside (see new pic above). Wouldn't the casting numbers (listed above) tell us if it's supposed to be in a car?

I suppose I also need to download the '75 version.

I notice the tip of the U-shaped fork looks broken (see last pic). Is it supposed to look like the tip of the "?" fork?

The seller stated it was from a passenger car and not a truck. People say whatever. He also stated it was a 3-speed OD box. Applying your instructions, it looks like a 4-speed box.

There is another trans available from the same guy. Aluminum case. No other information on it at this time. If it's in better shape (not so much broken stuff), I'll try to work a swap using guilt and hassle as bargaining chips.

Thanks for your help on this, Sensei.
Click to expand...

The shaft is undoubtedly the countershaft for the cluster gear. It may have worked itself out (should be flush) or the gear breakage may be a clue of other damage.

For the manual, download the 72 and 73 manuals, both are good to have, and are the latest you can get. The 73 "body" manual won't do you a lot of good, but I would get it, anyhow.

I would think some research on bell casting no's would tell you if it's truck or car. "I'm not sure" as some cars and vans used 833 / OD units instead of a "truck" gearbox, and so far as I know, they all used the larger flywheel, which you don't want.

I don't know about the fork.....cannot see it well enough

Depending on what the seller wants for the aluminum box, it just might be worth getting it "anyhow."
 
According to you guys, I gather this: Yes, it's an OD. And yes, it's a 4-speed.

Any other opinions? We need a tie-breaker here. Does anyone have a picture of the inside of a 4-speed? If I am going to dump this one and want to find another, it'd be good to know what I'm looking for. I'm surprised the stamped numbers on the thing give no indication.

As to my assessment of the synchros: My limited experience is based on a '57 MGA I rescued from a barnyard almost 40 years ago. In the three transmissions I had to choose from you could definitively see whether or not the synchros were worn. I chose the best one based on the lack of wear on the synchros and the opinion of a transmission expert. Just one more thing to add to the Gotta Learn More About That List.

As to the counter-balance shaft being out of place: The hits just keep on spinnin'. To answer my Question #9 in the first post, it's beginning to look more and more like "boat anchor" is the right answer.

Now I just have to get a boat.
 
gorgerider said:
I thought I'd jump into this thread.

I'm swapping a 273 into a '64 Dart GT which currently has a /6 and auto trans. I'm having problems with terminology and don't see an exact parallel to what I have and what I want to do. If it's there, I don't know enough to recognize it. Sorry.

Stuff I currently have:

273 motor w/o flywheel/clutch, clutch fork, or throwout bearing.
Cast iron 833. It looks like a short housing and PO says it was from a car. Date code says it's from 12/4/'75. Numbers are 6B143802 (top) and PP833 5242 (bottom).
Bell housing. Cast number 3743859 (top) and 05505 1 (middle), and 76? followed by some sort of dot code in boxes - 2, 3, 3, 3, 1
Hurst shifter and shift rods
Linkage plate
Clutch "down rod"?
Pedal assembly
Stock 7.25" pumpkin

I've read the Brewer's Performance ID sheet and it has the interlock-style inspection plate. See the pics below.

Bad things I see:

- Threads on the rearward shifter rod are stripped. The front one doesn't look top notch, either.
- Two half-broken teeth on the gear in the middle. No others seen.
- Some corrosion on gear teeth.
- Looks like a broken shaft part behind inspection plate cover
- Looks like the U-shaped fork tip is broken.

A bunch of questions:

1). Does this trans have a slip-yoke driveline?
2). Will the bell housing bolt up to the '66 273 and trans?
3). Will I have to do a hump replacement for the shifter? Will I have to replace the frame cross member or will the /6 version work?
4). Is the trans a 3-speed w/OD or a 4-speed, or are they the same thing? Gears progress from smallest to largest, front to back.
5). The two fork-like pieces were loose in the case. Am I missing some pieces?
6). Two of the inspection plate bolts did not have collars below the head. Correct or not?
7). Will the front of the main shaft fit with the 273?
:cool:. If it's stock, what are the gear ratios?
9). Is this thing a boat anchor or worth the effort/cost to put it proper? I got it for about $200.

I'm sure I need a rebuild - no history supplied and broken teeth. Synchros appear to be OK. I don't know about gaskets and seals.

Thanks for your response. GR
Click to expand...

You probably should have started your own thread, but here goes.

The shifter appears to be an original 64 65 Hurst Competition plus 4 speed shifter and will work nicely with a 4 speed or 4 speed O/D(Chrysler just swapped 3rd gear for the 4th O/D gear. You can typically use your Hurst 4 speed shifter and linkage by turning the 3-4 shift lever down instead of up. The 4 speed section has pictures of both 4 speed and 4 speed O/D linkage by a FABO member.

The bell housing is for SMALL BLOCK 10.5" BELLHOUSING, 75-80 A/F-BODY/1976-80.
Use the 10.5 flywheel, clutch and pressure plate. You need special parts to adapt it to the early, 64-66 Dart. The 273 will easily overpower the original 9 1/2 inch clutch and pressure plate. Brewers Performance and Passon Performance have these parts.

You will need the 4 speed hump from and early 64-66 Dart, Valiant, or Barracuda. Someone is selling one in the classified section now, http://www.forabodiesonly.com/mopar/showthread.php?t=330796 . You will also need the clutch and brake pedal assy for the same cars.

The K frame is the same for /6 and 273 cars. Only the motor mount brackets change.

Check the rear of the crankshaft to see if you can install the pilot bearing. If not, search for alternatives or have the crank drilled for the pilot bushing.

The cast iron O/D main case is a plus, but I would not give much for that transmission. I'd look at the other O/D trans. Maybe swap internals into the cast iron case if you feel up to it. Check everything twice from cast iron O/D transmission. It is a slip yoke Trans, but the output shaft can be large, 30 spline, or small, 26 spline. of course bigger is better but both are good.
 
Thanks for the information, 66fs. I think it clears up some of this. You're right, I probably should have started a new thread, but the first question in my mind was one of identification. The rest of it is the result of asking one question generates more questions syndrome. For example, under what conditions will the 9.5" clutch become overpowered, cruising or race?

I'm working on getting another '75 cast iron OD trans that looks a whole lot more complete, including shifter w/ black knob and rearward sweep. That one may not work well with my bench seat, but I'll be getting some sort of bucket in the future. It means a 7-hour one-way trip up to British Columbia, but I've always liked Canada and could use the road trip. I'm waiting for his response.

The motor is a '66. I'm not sure if it has room for a pilot. There is a recess in the crank flange: ~ 11/16 deep by 1 13/16" in diameter, with an ~1/4" collar protruding from the crank flange surface. See pics below.

I'll probably go w/ new Shumacher mounts and brackets (after I get done convulsing over the price). In the mean time I'll be searching for a set of brackets.

I checked out the tunnel hump in Classifieds. $125 and it looks like it was modified from another application. Brewer's has new, proper-fit fiberglass for $130 plus shipping. Seems like a better option.

I'll look on the 4-speed forum to see if I can find out which parts I need for the BH.
 

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The crank in the picture appears to have the brass pilot bushing, so you should be good to go. A high performance 273 will have the 9.5 clutch slipping in high gear within months under full power. I do not drag race. I've had friends that did and it is too specialized for me. I want power and handling. So, shall we say spirited acceleration with full power shifts.

The Original Hurst shifter is a better piece. and the thifter hump looks correct to me for an early "A" body. They had that funny little cross over and the round shifter boot pattern, except for 66. The Shumacher mounts are just copies of the originals.

Good luck, Sounds like a nice project. I've done similar ones myself.
 
If you use the bellhousing you will use a 340 10.5 clutch and pressure plate and be good to go.
 
gorgerider said:
According to you guys, I gather this: Yes, it's an OD. And yes, it's a 4-speed.

Any other opinions? We need a tie-breaker here. Does anyone have a picture of the inside of a 4-speed? If I am going to dump this one and want to find another, it'd be good to know what I'm looking for. I'm surprised the stamped numbers on the thing give no indication.

As to my assessment of the synchros: My limited experience is based on a '57 MGA I rescued from a barnyard almost 40 years ago. In the three transmissions I had to choose from you could definitively see whether or not the synchros were worn. I chose the best one based on the lack of wear on the synchros and the opinion of a transmission expert. Just one more thing to add to the Gotta Learn More About That List.

As to the counter-balance shaft being out of place: The hits just keep on spinnin'. To answer my Question #9 in the first post, it's beginning to look more and more like "boat anchor" is the right answer.

Now I just have to get a boat.
Click to expand...
Most call it a 4 speed , but I call it a 3 speed with overdrive. It's really not a tranny for the track, it's for good gas mileage. I mentioned the track because most take out the /6 auto in hopes for a much more spirited experience??? If you would like to PM me? I'll PM you my phone number as you don't seem to live far away and I could probably clear up a lot of your questions. If you'd like me to post pictures of the for speed that's not a problem. But sometimes a short conversation on the phone can cover about 35 of these Post.
 
gorgerider said:
According to you guys, I gather this: Yes, it's an OD. And yes, it's a 4-speed.

. Does anyone have a picture of the inside of a 4-speed? If I am going to dump this one and want to find another, it'd be good to know what I'm looking for. .
Click to expand...

You are supposed to be able to tell an OD box by the size of the retainer, but that doesn't do you much good if you don't know what to look for. I always just turn the shaft, see below.

I tend to refer to "regular" 4 speeds, that is "straight through" as "4 speed," and the overdriven boxes as OD. The OD box is still a 4 speed, but the old original 3rd gear has been re-worked for an OD.

You don't need to "see" the inside to tell an OD from a straight through 4 speed. I already explained above in another post...........put the box into 3rd gear by rotating the front shift shaft CW. Turn the input 1 turn and see what the tail shaft does..........less than 1 turn is 4 speed, more than 1 turn is an OD box

The thing is......you takes your chances. No guarantee that a box is in good shape. Otherwise, inspect as much as you can, and if the owner won't allow you to tear the side cover off, then move on, unless it's cheap enough.

I recently bought a 4 speed for 120 bux with a crossmember and the shifter body and handle. At that price "I don't care." Didn't even bother to inspect
 
blmopar1 said:
I know of a 4 speed out of a 1968 340 barracuda for sale and was woundering if the are any charts that will have what all the numbers on the outside casting signify. What is a trans like this worth, all original never rebuilt. Thanks
Click to expand...

its worth what some one will give you for it.
 
67 Dart 273, I did use your method and fount it to be the 4-speed according to your test. I'll use that test when I go up north tomorrow. I'll also pop the inspection plate to check on other stuff and to verify which gear set I'm looking at. As to the fir on the bell housing, I'll take mine up there to see how well it matches up with the fron retaining plate. Even if it's a rebuilt, all the other stuff included will pay for that. I don't see a down side at this point. We'll see.

Thanks for your input. It'll be valuable tomorrow. GR
 
All you need is measure the diameter of the retainer. But even then there is? was? used to be retainer spacer rings, and EG when I put the 340 into my old 440-6 RR, we had the bell center hole turned larger for the 18 spline gearbox.
 
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