“Numbers Matching”?

[ProjectBazza]

My boss just bought a ‘67 Formula S Barracuda (link below), and the seller claimed it was “numbers matching”. But I’m finding conflicting information on when Plymouth starting stamping VIN’s into the blocks.

Does anyone know for certain if his 273 should have a VIN number stamped into it?

My Boss just bought a Formula S convertible!

Does this look familiar to anyone? Just curious…. Anyway, I guess he saw it during a road trip last week, and he finalized the deal just last night. He’s going to rent a trailer and haul it home this weekend. And that’s about all I know about it at this point.

www.forabodiesonly.com

 

[toolmanmike]

Not in 67. That started in 68

 

[RustyRatRod]

It may well be the original engine, but there's no way to verify it as @toolmanmike eluded to. All you can go is get the date codes. If it's close to the car's birthday, that's as close as you can get.

 

[ProjectBazza]

Not in 67. That started in 68

Thanks, Mike! For the most part that’s what I found as well (although some search results said ‘67), so I’m not sure why seller would have made that claim then….

I’m going back to work starting tomorrow, and my boss said he may drive it in. If so (or when he does), I’ll take some pictures of the car and post them up here….with his permission, of course.

 

[ProjectBazza]

It may well be the original engine, but there's no way to verify it as @toolmanmike eluded to. All you can go is get the date codes. If it's close to the car's birthday, that's as close as you can get.

Yeah. The 318 in Bazza’s car is original, but it can’t be verified by VIN either, as they didn’t stamp the engine blocks in Australia until ‘72 or ‘73 (Bazza told me once but I’ve forgotten).

I’ll try to get the date code off the 273 block when I see it.

Thanks!

 

[toolmanmike]

"Numbers matching" is a misused phrase by those that don't know. He may know that the engine is original to the car but unless it has the car's VIN stamped on it, it's not numbers matching. It's like people describing restored Mopars as being "frame off".

 

[RustyRatRod]

"Numbers matching" is a misused phrase by those that don't know. He may know that the engine is original to the car but unless it has the car's VIN stamped on it, it's not numbers matching. It's like people describing restored Mopars as being "frame off".

I always wanna ask "how many spot welds did you drill out?" LOL

 

[toolmanmike]

I always wanna ask "how many spot welds did you drill out?" LOL

 

[ProjectBazza]

"Numbers matching" is a misused phrase by those that don't know. He may know that the engine is original to the car but unless it has the car's VIN stamped on it, it's not numbers matching. It's like people describing restored Mopars as being "frame off".

Thanks, Mike.

I’m just hoping the little cynical voice inside of my head that’s telling me the seller pulled a “fast one” on an unsuspecting buyer is wrong. Not a good trait to have, I know, but fool me once…

 

[TT5.9mag]

Thanks, Mike.

I’m just hoping the little cynical voice inside of my head that’s telling me the seller pulled a “fast one” on an unsuspecting buyer is wrong. Not a good trait to have, I know, but fool me once…

Why does it matter? It’s every bit as much true as it is untrue IF it cannot be verified, but again why does it matter? Tell your Boss he bought an awesome car, now go enjoy it.

 

[72bluNblu]

Why does it matter? It’s every bit as much true as it is untrue IF it cannot be verified, but again why does it matter? Tell your Boss he bought an awesome car, now go enjoy it.

Yeah but it’s not just unverifiable, it’s factually incorrect. The car may in fact be all original, which can mostly be verified, but it’s not numbers matching because it doesn’t have the numbers and it never did. That’s original for the car so it’s not a scam or something, but it’s still not true.

The example of a “frame off” restoration is a good one. Doesn’t mean the car wasn’t restored, but it sure as hell wasn’t a frame off. It’s factually incorrect. Maybe it’s just loose terminology and not an attempt to deceive somebody, but that still doesn’t make it true.

And it doesn’t matter if it’s a great car or not either. We all know a “numbers matching” car gets more money than one that isn’t under normal circumstances. So if the buyer wanted a “numbers matching” car and didn’t get one, well, that’s not an honest sale. Granted in this case it can’t be a numbers matching car and “original drivetrain” may bring the same kind of price so again there may not be any “scam” there, but you can’t just say it doesn’t matter.

Like I don’t care that most of my car aren’t numbers matching, I prefer them that way because I drive them. But I didn’t pay numbers matching prices either.

 

[ProjectBazza]

Why does it matter? It’s every bit as much true as it is untrue IF it cannot be verified, but again why does it matter? Tell your Boss he bought an awesome car, now go enjoy it.

I know, I know!!!

But the situation can also be seen an unscrupulous seller’s wet dream: An Out of Towner happens to see a sign for a car show out in the middle of nowhere, so he and his wife to stop-in, they spot the car, and fall in love with it (her especially), and despite the fact that he’s always telling me he wants to buy a ‘67 Coronet convertible….and nothing else, they make a low ball offer, which is accepted.

Not to mention the whole “numbers matching” thing….

Could be just Good Luck or Fate for them in that they found a really nice car (and I REALLY hope that it is!), but for some odd reason my BS detector is going off, albeit quite softly.

 

[dadsbee]

All you can do with a 67 is go through the body and drive line. SO # on body, does it match the build sheet or fender tag? SPD date on sheet/ tag and then look at when the engine was built and transmission and see if things line up reasonably for the assembly line. All stuff I dug thru on the Wife's 383 x 4 gear Formula S to get a warm fuzzy feeling everything was original. Not much else you can do other than that...

 

[TT5.9mag]

Yeah but it’s not just unverifiable, it’s factually incorrect. The car may in fact be all original, which can mostly be verified, but it’s not numbers matching because it doesn’t have the numbers and it never did. That’s original for the car so it’s not a scam or something, but it’s still not true.

The example of a “frame off” restoration is a good one. Doesn’t mean the car wasn’t restored, but it sure as hell wasn’t a frame off. It’s factually incorrect. Maybe it’s just loose terminology and not an attempt to deceive somebody, but that still doesn’t make it true.

And it doesn’t matter if it’s a great car or not either. We all know a “numbers matching” car gets more money than one that isn’t under normal circumstances. So if the buyer wanted a “numbers matching” car and didn’t get one, well, that’s not an honest sale. Granted in this case it can’t be a numbers matching car and “original drivetrain” may bring the same kind of price so again there may not be any “scam” there, but you can’t just say it doesn’t matter.

Like I don’t care that most of my car aren’t numbers matching, I prefer them that way because I drive them. But I didn’t pay numbers matching prices either.

Yea I get the whole factual vs non factual argument. I usually make that same one and I am a stickler normally for semantic details. I tend to think (on most cases with mopars) it’s ignorance on sellers part more than someone trying to pull the wool over someone’s eyes. Maybe I’m too optimistic and should be a little more skeptical.

 

[72bluNblu]

I know, I know!!!

But the situation can also be seen an unscrupulous seller’s wet dream: An Out of Towner happens to see a sign for a car show out in the middle of nowhere, so he and his wife to stop-in, they spot the car, and fall in love with it (her especially), and despite the fact that he’s always telling me he wants to buy a ‘67 Coronet convertible….and nothing else, they make a low ball offer, which is accepted.

Not to mention the whole “numbers matching” thing….

Could be just Good Luck or Fate for them in that they found a really nice car (and I REALLY hope that it is!), but for some odd reason my BS detector is going off, albeit quite softly.

More than likely it's a case of the seller not knowing enough about the car they're selling more than anything else. There's a lot of people out there with classic cars that don't know much about them at all. Someone told them it was the original drivetrain, they took that to mean it was numbers matching because they just see all the lingo in the sale ads, and were completely ignorant of the fact that none of that applies to their '67.

Another example, I've seen "the last owner said it had a 340" a few times just here on FABO, with the car actually having a 318 in it. Wasn't the previous owner trying to scam the new owner, it was whoever scammed the PO and then they never checked because they didn't know how and didn't learn. Maybe they really enjoyed the car too, but if they paid for a 340 and didn't get one they got screwed.

So you had a seller that didn't know '67 couldn't be numbers matching, and a buyer that didn't know that '67 couldn't be numbers matching, and now you get to break the news that he doesn't have a "numbers matching" car because it's just not possible, even though it could be the original drivetrain. Obviously it could have been a scam too but if it's actually a nice car it's probably just bad terminology/misunderstanding. And if the price paid was in the right ballpark then it doesn't matter that much. IIRC the casting date on the block should typically be a 3-4 months ahead of the production date to be in the ballpark? Either way the casting dates should be earlier than scheduled production, cure time, shipping time, engine assembly, etc on the block before it shows up to the assembly factory.

Yea I get the whole factual vs non factual argument. I usually make that same one and I am a stickler normally for semantic details. I tend to think (on most cases with mopars) it’s ignorance on sellers part more than someone trying to pull the wool over someone’s eyes. Maybe I’m too optimistic and should be a little more skeptical.

Exactly, totally agree. Was typing out the same thing at the same time! There's definitely scammers out there taking advantage of people, but there's also a TON of people out there that are just uninformed owners. They wanted a cool car, bought it, don't know crap about it and trust their mechanic to keep it working. Seen lots of them.

 

[TT5.9mag]

so he and his wife to stop-in, they spot the car, and fall in love with it

That’s all they need to worry about. They shouldn’t “love it” any more or any less if the numbers are there or not.

 

[72bluNblu]

That’s all they need to worry about. They shouldn’t “love it” any more or any less if the numbers are there or not.

Unless it's a stolen re-body and they paid a numbers matching price.

Like I said, I personally think the whole "numbers game" is silly anyway. Paying a $100k more for an original hemi car vs a /6 car with a hemi and all the appropriate parts? Well **** they drive the same man, who cares? My '74 Duster with a 340 and '71 Demon bodywork is better set up than any factory 340 Demon ever was, and will hand an original 340 car it's *** in ANY actual performance competition. But it's not gonna pull an original '71 Demon 340 car price tag, 'cause it's a clone and they made hundreds of thousands of '74 Dusters and only thousands of '71 Demon 340's.

So yeah, numbers are stupid because you're just paying for some stamped numbers on the car and that doesn't make the car perform any better or tell you anything about the quality of the car itself. But if you pay hemi car prices for a clone, well, that's a scam. Nice car or no, it's still fraud.

 

[LO23M8B]

Number matching means a lot more than just the engine and trans, It means the whole car has the original correct parts for that vehicle. Little things like the carb/s intake/exhaust manifolds alt. wiper motor and on and on like hundreds of parts. All should be correct part numbers to that year and model.

 

[TT5.9mag]

Unless it's a stolen re-body and they paid a numbers matching price.

That is very true and I’d be extremely skeptical if I was a buyer of something overly valuable (anything hemi for example). But I don’t think that level of fuckery has trickled down into the formula S market just yet. I’m not sure the juice is worth the squeeze at this point. Again I might be overly optimistic and giving (asshole) people too much credit. Like counterfeit one dollar bills, no one does that. They make $100s. What’s the difference in price you think between a true formula S car and a slant6 bare bones barracuda?

 

[mopardude62]

According to my fender tag on my 1967 Barracuda the build date of my car was 5-12-67, so it was a fairly late build. It even has the 1968 style idler arm.

The date on my 273 block is 4-8-67, so right in line with what most guys are saying on this forum. Engines were built about a month before the build date of the car.

While it’s true I cannot completely verify I have the original engine. I bought it from the original owner, it had 80K on it and the condition of all hoses, motor mounts, exhaust, grease in all the right places lead me to believe it is the original engine!!

 

[72bluNblu]

Number matching means a lot more than just the engine and trans, It means the whole car has the original correct parts for that vehicle. Little things like the carb/s intake/exhaust manifolds alt. wiper motor and on and on like hundreds of parts. All should be correct part numbers to that year and model.

Sorry but no, that's not what it means. Numbers matching is commonly understood to mean the drivetrain and body parts. It means the VIN's and very little else.

You're talking about a factory correct restoration, and that's a different thing entirely. That's an "all original" or factory correct car, not just "numbers matching".

And to save you the trouble, I understand what you might find out there as a definition of "numbers matching". But if you actually look at how people describe their cars in sale ads, and not just Mopars, you'll find very few factory correct restorations described only as "numbers matching", and hundreds and hundreds of cars described as "numbers matching" that have body/engine/transmission/fender tags etc that match (or at least allegedly match)

According to my fender tag on my 1967 Barracuda the build date of my car was 5-12-67, so it was a fairly late build. It even has the 1968 style idler arm.

The date on my 273 block is 4-8-67, so right in line with what most guys are saying on this forum. Engines were built about a month before the build date of the car.

While it’s true I cannot completely verify I have the original engine. I bought it from the original owner, it had 80K on it and the condition of all hoses, motor mounts, exhaust, grease in all the right places lead me to believe it is the original engine!!

View attachment 1716427141

It would certainly sound like you have the original engine. And it looks like you've got a great car!

 

[1MeanA]

A lot of people use the term without even knowing what it means. Some guy on FB market place had a 340 engine for sale that was "numbers matching". I tried to explain to him how things work.

 

[mopowers]

Numbers shmubers. I miss the days when A-body guys didn't care about these cars being factory "correct."

 

[RustyRatRod]

A lot of people use the term without even knowing what it means. Some guy on FB market place had a 340 engine for sale that was "numbers matching". I tried to explain to him how things work.

Exactly so. Much the same as "balanced and blueprinted". People love to throw words around.

 

[LO23M8B]

Personally, I don't care if a car is number matching. I just try to enjoy my rides. People don't believe that I hammer on them, drive them in the rain (not on purpose) and have fun. I much rather have a hemi in a /6 car then a number matching 340 car.