1300 hp mercury comet brake failure crash

[92b]

I've watched the video many times. I think, regardless of what the guy says in the video that "45" was on the conservative side and that he was actually speeding up before the crash.

It looked to me like they were driving with the speed of traffic for the most part (what ever that was) with an occasional burst of throttle for the glory shot. They were coming up on a light so probably weren't speeding up too much. One thing is for sure they weren't speeding up after he put it in park as the motor was no longer coupled to the drivetrain. If you heard the motor speed up after he put it in park it's because a fixed throttle position with less or no load equals increased Rpm. Motor is still making same torque at a fixed throttle position only this time the load is decreased so the rpm will increase. The speed of the car will decrease as long as the road stays flat . The rate the speed decreases is dependant on how efficiently the car will coast. Looked like it didn't slow down much.

 

[Killer6]

It takes what it ta

It takes what it takes in torque or HP to maintain a speed with the throttle in a stuck or fixed position on a flat road. If you encounter a hill the speed will decrease because the load is increased and the throttle position stays the same. It doesn't make more torque or hp unless you open the throttle to maintain speed when a hill is encountered. Same would be true for applying the brakes with the throttle in a stuck position. It doesn't matter if it's a slant six producing said horsepower or a motor capable of 1,300 horsepower. The amount of torque or HP the brakes have to overcome is the same. The motor is only producing the torque or hp needed to maintain the speed the stuck throttle is allowing it to achieve.

LOL! Any engine that has the minimum required torque at 2200rpm/45mph that is "fast idled" at that rpm will propel the vehicle at that speed regardless, it's when an increased load is applied that the potential differential will show up,...like climbing a hill,...applying the brakes.....You anwered the question for Me. Taking an automatic kicking down into lower gears out of the equation, when that Comet vs My 'rolla hits a 10% grade, which one do You think will slow down the most w/o changing the throttle position? Keep looking at the world upside-down Sport....

 

[mopar head]

Kill Them! Kill Them!
people need to lighten up.
We need to be aware of a lot of shitboxes are out there among us too.
Ever watch just rolled in on YT? My god the crap they show would blow you away, and some people refuse service, then they are released back into the wild amongst us

 

[Jeff Seighman]

Build your case then...where is your victim what are you asking for in damages..."the car had a mechanical failure and my client was limping it home your honor.. "now what's your rebuttal? "Where does it say in California statute, that my client has to stop and get a tow?"... "I believe it is within my clients right to limp his car home your honor...and my client is willing to compensate the vehicle owner for all damages your honor..." this is about how it will sound in court.

I think I've made my case through my previous posts along with a few other folks. You seem to think the driver is at no fault, are you a lawyer? I'm not.
We disagree and that's all, but maybe you should watch the video again, or did you watch it at all? It speaks for itself.

 

[Dartswinger70]

Kill Them! Kill Them!
people need to lighten up.
We need to be aware of a lot of shitboxes are out there among us too.
Ever watch just rolled in on YT? My god the crap they show would blow you away, and some people refuse service, then they are released back into the wild amongst us

I couldn't agree more. there is alot of contempt for the Comet owner guy because it is perceived that he has "money" like working hard and having money to build a nice car is wrong or something.

 

[mopar head]

I couldn't agree more. there is alot of contempt for the Comet owner guy because it is perceived that he has "money" like working hard and having money to build a nice car is wrong or something.

Right. 23yrs could have been build as you can afford. That`s the way I built my Dodge and why it took Near 10 yrs.
His averaged 8k yr when mine averaged 2k yr.

 

[Dartswinger70]

I think I've made my case through my previous posts along with a few other folks. You seem to think the driver is at no fault, are you a lawyer? I'm not.
We disagree and that's all, but maybe you should watch the video again, or did you watch it at all? It speaks for itself.

I never said he wasn't at fault. i think it was an accident he surely didn't set out to smash up his car.

Saying he needs to pay dearly for being stupid is an opinion. He's already paid and that should be obvious. I suppose I'm just not pissed off about it or biased. I know running him through a ringer over it wont fare well for the rest of us, and all the YT azzholes posting videos about it isn't helping either. It could get bad where people don't want to see old cars on the road in their state unless gone over with a fine toothed comb by some regulating authority ...imagine that.

 

[92b]

LOL! Any engine that has the minimum required torque at 2200rpm/45mph that is "fast idled" at that rpm will propel the vehicle at that speed regardless, it's when an increased load is applied that the potential differential will show up,...like climbing a hill,...applying the brakes.....You anwered the question for Me. Taking an automatic kicking down into lower gears out of the equation, when that Comet vs My 'rolla hits a 10% grade, which one do You think will slow down the most w/o changing the throttle position? Keep looking at the world upside-down Sport....

If the cars are equal weight, drag and etc. They will slow down the same because they are putting out the same amount of torque. The difference is how far you have to move the throttle to maintain speed when you encounter the grade.

 

[RustyRatRod]

It looked to me like they were driving with the speed of traffic for the most part (what ever that was) with an occasional burst of throttle for the glory shot. They were coming up on a light so probably weren't speeding up too much. One thing is for sure they weren't speeding up after he put it in park as the motor was no longer coupled to the drivetrain. If you heard the motor speed up after he put it in park it's because a fixed throttle position with less or no load equals increased Rpm. Motor is still making same torque at a fixed throttle position only this time the load is decreased so the rpm will increase. The speed of the car will decrease as long as the road stays flat . The rate the speed decreases is dependant on how efficiently the car will coast. Looked like it didn't slow down much.

From the damage inflicted to both cars, I say they were hauling ***.

 

[mopar head]

One of MANY instances of what we`re around. Especially up north.

 

[Kern Dog]

....as well as better brakes.

I am inspired by this to upgrade the brakes in my car. I already have 4 wheel discs but I'm going bigger front and rear.

 

[jos51700]

I'm kinda surprised the car shut off after it hit, now that i think about it...

 

[crj1968]

I couldn't agree more. there is alot of contempt for the Comet owner guy because it is perceived that he has "money" like working hard and having money to build a nice car is wrong or something.

Nothing to do with money- lots of people here have money.
It has to do with ignoring a throttle stuck at 2200 RPM, on a big powerplant... and riding the puny brakes until failure, for the glory of a video.

I get it the dude wanted to show off his car, It's cool as hell (was). But it wasn't ready, it was throwing out every sign a car guy (two of them) should be aware of, and they plowed on.

 

[my68barracuda]

Wow. This guy made a fantastic video that will play well in a civil court. Owner admits the brakes are inadequate and the throttle is sticking and then proceeds to plow into the back of a minivan. All captured on video. Case closed. Fix the car? He'll be lucky to have enough money left to resore a wheelbarrow.

I don't know who the broken teeth guy is. If he passes himself off as a car guru on his videos, then I'd hold him 25% responsible in a lawsuit. I watch a lot of YouTube videos but would never watch **** like this. 1300 HP street cars that have no purpose in life other than to sound tough and do smoky burnouts just don't impress me. Show me the ET slip or lap times.

But this opened my eyes in a positive way. My 64 Valiant has that pretty metal dash, drum brakes and lap belts. The interior is close coupled with not much room to the dash. I don't know if adding the optional padding on the dash would do much, maybe only lose 2 teeth instead of 4? But before it rolled even a single foot under its own power I had converted to a dual MC system. I do have discs ready to go on and that will be a winter project.
I'm not going to be showing this video to my lady friend who rides many miles with me. Interesting that when my son rode with me to Carlisle last year, he made it clear that the metal dash and closeness made him uncomfortable. Guess that means he learned something after totaling 2 Neons in his younger days.

Some folks get shoulder harnesses in pre ‘68 A bodies by installing modern seats from convertable cars that have the shoulder harness in the seat back.
You have to know which ones to get so they function properly with out the OE ECU….

 

[Killer6]

If the cars are equal weight, drag and etc. They will slow down the same because they are putting out the same amount of torque. The difference is how far you have to move the throttle to maintain speed when you encounter the grade.

Hmmm, by Your "logic" then, when My 'rolla engine & this supercharged BBC are both set to 2200rpm in identical cars of equal weight & dropped into gear they will simultaneously accelerate at identical rates & achieve 45mph at exactly the same time. Good luck with that.

 

[92b]

Hmmm, by Your "logic" then, when My 'rolla engine & this supercharged BBC are both set to 2200rpm in identical cars of equal weight & dropped into gear they will simultaneously accelerate at identical rates & achieve 45mph at exactly the same time. Good luck with that.

Hmm. Good point.
You're right it would depend on the shape of the torque curve of each motor below 2200 rpm at the throttle position needed to achieve 2200 rpm at idle.
Help me figure this out. So what kind of hp or tq numbers do you think we are looking at for this Comet to achieve the cruising speed they were at?
I ask because that would be the maximum amount of power output during the perod of time prior to the accident. I'm trying to imagine the shape of the power curve that this 1300 Hp motor would have if you loaded it on a dyno and I pulled it backwards. Like it would have been loaded with properly working brakes. So on the dyno you would load the engine to the amount of torque it takes the engine to maintain the speed the car is traveling at the rpm the engine is running and fix the throttle at that position. Then load the engine pulling the rpms down with the dyno brake like you would with cars brakes had they been working properly. And record the torque curve.
In my head the peak torque on this curve will be at the highest Rpm or the rpm we start the pull (down) at. I don't think it would make more torque at the lower rpms considering it is a 1300 hp motor and peak torque at wide open throttle is likely to occur at a much higher RPM.
I looked on my mustang chassis dyno and they have a spec for the amount of power a 1973 ( that's the oldest model I have specs for) mercury comet uses to maintain 50 mph for their vehicle simulation mode. Hp @ 50 is 13.5 Hp. For comparison a 1973 marquis is 20.7 HP.
I think "1300 hp car involved in accident " makes f a sensational headline. I also think it is misleading to characterize the 1300 hp as being a significant factor in this accident. If our goal is public relations with the general public we all should stop repeating falsely ( in my opinion ) that 1300 hp is what contributed to this accident. More accurately it was 13.5 hp give or take a little. Feel free to dispute my numbers or methods. I'm willing to learn from others. Thank you Killer6.

 

[92b]

 

[crj1968]

My (425 ft/lb) twin turbo BMW diesel does 80MPH at 2000RPM. (335d) (assume throttle stuck there) Of course that's in 6th gear. If I ride my brakes...to get down to 40 MPH, well I cant see them lasting long...and it has big 4wheel disks. Mind you I'm not trying to stop yet, I could, but I'm shooting a video.
Now my brakes go....
If I drop down to say 2nd My RPMS go way up and now engine braking...I still have a big problem.

And then assume I have to put it into park first in order to downshift every time lol...

The dude screwed up- good luck out there and be safe.

 

[my68barracuda]

A couple of reasons why I recommended the first step to do in a moving vehicle without brakes would be to kill the ignition:
1) shutting the motor down, even if there was no compression braking would stop the powered forward momentum of the vehicle, just coasting it would slow some and give the brakes a better chance of doing something.
2) assuming, and I believe with that car builder this a assuming a lot, shutting down the engine should also shut down the electric fuel pumps. I am thinking with that big SC, there was a large fuel flow potential going toward the engine. Worse case would be a collision, with the engine still running and a split fuel line.
3) it is reported that with the car in gear and moving and the brakes applied, the motor was still taching 2000 RPM. Shift into neutral, removing the load from the motor or attempting to select park as the driver did, how high would the RPM's go? If the collision had been avoided, the potential still existed to over rev the motor.

And concerning the crash positions taken by the vehicle occupants. Obviously, they had a short time to position their bodies, But in following the choices they previously made they probably did the worst possible thing by squeezing back in the seats. That just gave more room for their bodies to swing forward when the inevitable stop occurred.
For the passenger, the guy should have got into the airline passenger brace position. Bend over at the waist forward, put you head as far forward as possible to the surface it will likely contact.
For the driver, I think doing similar would be best, lean forward with the upper head and chest against the steering wheel.

 

[mopar head]

lean forward with the upper head and chest against the steering wheel.

 

[my68barracuda]

Remember an object in motion, will stay in motion until something stops it.
By positioning yourself against the object that you will collide into, you are minimizing the momentum ahead of the sudden stop.
Of course if the occupants had shoulder belts, those belts would have limited the forward motion and the sudden stop would occur between them and the shoulder belt, with the shoulder belt being much softer than a dashboard.

 

[Killer6]

Hmm. Good point.
You're right it would depend on the shape of the torque curve of each motor below 2200 rpm at the throttle position needed to achieve 2200 rpm at idle.
Help me figure this out. So what kind of hp or tq numbers do you think we are looking at for this Comet to achieve the cruising speed they were at?
I ask because that would be the maximum amount of power output during the perod of time prior to the accident. I'm trying to imagine the shape of the power curve that this 1300 Hp motor would have if you loaded it on a dyno and I pulled it backwards. Like it would have been loaded with properly working brakes. So on the dyno you would load the engine to the amount of torque it takes the engine to maintain the speed the car is traveling at the rpm the engine is running and fix the throttle at that position. Then load the engine pulling the rpms down with the dyno brake like you would with cars brakes had they been working properly. And record the torque curve.
In my head the peak torque on this curve will be at the highest Rpm or the rpm we start the pull (down) at. I don't think it would make more torque at the lower rpms considering it is a 1300 hp motor and peak torque at wide open throttle is likely to occur at a much higher RPM.
I looked on my mustang chassis dyno and they have a spec for the amount of power a 1973 ( that's the oldest model I have specs for) mercury comet uses to maintain 50 mph for their vehicle simulation mode. Hp @ 50 is 13.5 Hp. For comparison a 1973 marquis is 20.7 HP.
I think "1300 hp car involved in accident " makes f a sensational headline. I also think it is misleading to characterize the 1300 hp as being a significant factor in this accident. If our goal is public relations with the general public we all should stop repeating falsely ( in my opinion ) that 1300 hp is what contributed to this accident. More accurately it was 13.5 hp give or take a little. Feel free to dispute my numbers or methods. I'm willing to learn from others. Thank you Killer6.

You're still looking at it backwards, the vehicle is CONSUMING the same amount of torque, both engines have enough torque potential to achieve the unloaded "idle" speed of 2200rpm, but the percentage of each engines maximum torque potential at that throttle position is dramatically different. The cylinder & inlet pressures are going to be much higher in the smaller 110ci engine, & may be at 35-40% of it's max output on the level, when loaded on a grade those pressures increase and the output efficiency goes up until it has reached maximum and the vehicle will settle at whatever mph that is. The larger engine, not to mention supercharged, may only be operating at 8% of it's max potential output, thus it has much more capacity for increased load before reaching maximum efficiency and output.

 

[Killer6]

Basically, the Dude was dyno-testing His mill at a fixed throttle position with His brakes, one which would handily spank the little 1.8L in the same test,....as excellent as that little mill may be..

 

[diymirage]

All you need to do is install a set of later model seats, like those from a Sebring Convertible for example, with the shoulder harness built in.

ill do you one better, get a third row seat from a yukon XL or similar
they have the build in shoulder belts, they are still a bench seat (and if it doesnt have a bench seat its not a muscle car)
AND they fold flat in case you want to take a nap in the back seat

i actually installed one in my bronco years ago, to add a third row to that

 

[Killer6]

ill do you one better, get a third row seat from a yukon XL or similar
they have the build in shoulder belts, they are still a bench seat (and if it doesnt have a bench seat its not a muscle car)
AND they fold flat in case you want to take a nap in the back seat

i actually installed one in my bronco years ago, to add a third row to that

Interesting, forgot those, what is the width & "tunnel clearance" height stock?