255/60-15 on the rear on 7" wide 4 .25 backspace. I kept 14's on the front on on 6" wheels. BFG Radial TA's
1972 Dodge Dart Swinger Stance
- Thread starter PawnCenter72
- Start date
-
PawnCenter72
David and Chelsea rebuild
did you have to tub it
No tub, no mini tub, no rub. If the springs were weaker I might have to trim the fender lip a bit.
PawnCenter72
David and Chelsea rebuild
Ok thank you
If the SS springs are too stiff, then you're too old...
You know, you guys can call me all the names you want and flame my posts with "disagree" tags all you like. The simple fact of the matter is that a car with SS spring handles like crap because the rear springs are too stiff for anything other than launching at the track. This isn't because "I'm too old", and it's not because I'm whining. I'm the one daily driving my cars, you guys are the ones with modern, comfortable cars for the daily grind. I run 1.12" torsion bars on my cars. My cars do not have a "cadillac" ride quality. Comfort is the last thing on my mind when I build a car, otherwise I wouldn't be running a 16:1 manual steering box with 275 wide front tires and torsion bars with a 300 lb/in rate coupled with the largest off the shelf sway bars you can buy. My car rides like a modern performance car without all the wiz bang computer gadgets to make it easy to drive. It's a bit stiff, it takes a lot of arm to deal with steering under 10 mph and it takes a decent amount of leg because of the manual brakes. No power anything, no A/C, everything has been sold out for handling performance alone. If I needed stiffer springs for better handling, my cars would have them, plain and simple. If anything my car is borderline too stiff as it's currently set up for the 300 treadwear tires I run on the street, and would be better suited for stickier tires.
The SS springs are too stiff for proper handling anywhere other than the drag strip. That has nothing to do with comfort and everything to do with physics. Most cars set up like yours are running rear springs that have a higher spring rate than your torsion bars in the front. On cars which are nose heavy. Think about that for 2 seconds. You have a nose heavy car with a higher spring rate in the back than the front. So, no, it's not "rocket science", but it is basic physics. And as a former aerospace engineer, I actually do understand "rocket science", and this definitely isn't that.
You need higher springs rates up front than you do out back on these cars, otherwise you have absolutely no hope of a balanced car. There is nothing else you can do to the rest of suspension components that will fix that, they don't make front sway bars big enough to overcome it or shocks stiff or soft enough to change it. That's not my opinion, that's physics.
Now, if you guys like having SS springs out back, a big front to rear rake, running hockey puck hard BFG TA's that will spin up if you look at them funny and driving cars that handle like they did in the 70's (poorly!!!), that's fine. That's your opinion, and they're your cars so have at it. But don't try to pretend that your cars even handle "ok", because they don't. If they did, you'd probably drive them more often.
mopowers
Well-Known Member
Wow, lot's of strong opinions in this one.
72bluNblu- If you don't mind, what do you do for living now? Aerospace engineer sounds pretty badass.
72bluNblu- If you don't mind, what do you do for living now? Aerospace engineer sounds pretty badass.
I have not been calling you names, just said that if they are too stiff then you are too old... Don't take it personally...
Every car I put them on had formula S suspension with front sway bar... No handling problems...
It's not rocket appliances...
(Not that rocket science is difficult....)
Ddaddy
I'm changing the World... one pixel at a time!
It's nearly 50 year old technology from back before the appearance of the first pocket calculator...
If you never had handling problems with those cars, you never tried to handle with them.
We clearly have a completely different idea of what it means to have a good handling car. There's no reason these cars can't keep pace with a brand new car if you turn the traction control off. Tim Werners "red brick" Valiant has hit 160 mph at Portland, and turned faster laps than a C06 there. The Hotchkis Taxi, a 1970 4 door satellite, turns laps faster than a 2012 3 series beemer's on TireRacks test track. Same driver, same tires, 4 door satellite with torsion bars and leaf springs putting down faster laps than a 2012 3 series. That car handles well.
You think that makes a difference? Modern telecommunications satellites are positioned and maintained in orbit using equations derived by Isaac Newton. Orbital mechanics is Newtonian physics. That's 300 year old technology. Sure nowadays a computer does all the math and plots the course, but it's the same math as 300 years ago. Just gets done faster.
The 2017 Ford GT supercar has a torsion bar front suspension, that's 60+ year old technology. The new C07 corvette uses a transverse leaf spring for its rear suspension. Henry Ford used those for Model A's. Repackaged a bit sure, absolutely. But the physics hasn't changed. The physics has never changed, neither has the math. There were electric cars before 1900. These are not new ideas. Tire compounds and shocks have gotten better, horsepower increased, etc. But the suspension does the exact same thing, the same equations are used to design it, and the same physics applies.
Ddaddy
I'm changing the World... one pixel at a time!
Relax Mr. 72 BluNblu...it was a joke.
You see, I'm VP of Technical Development and have multiple patents in Engineering and Physics as well as Physical Chemistry. I engineer and design huge pieces of cutting edge nano-technology equipment that have never been seen before. I understand what you are saying and appreciate that you have found what works best for you.
However, not everyone wants what you want...and that doesn't make them wrong either. Sometimes people want to fly an old P-51 Mustang because of how it feels...and don't want to try to make it into something else.
The World doesn't turn just for you...nor should it.
I respect what you want out of your car. Now, how about returning that respect for others who want something else?
You see, I'm VP of Technical Development and have multiple patents in Engineering and Physics as well as Physical Chemistry. I engineer and design huge pieces of cutting edge nano-technology equipment that have never been seen before. I understand what you are saying and appreciate that you have found what works best for you.
However, not everyone wants what you want...and that doesn't make them wrong either. Sometimes people want to fly an old P-51 Mustang because of how it feels...and don't want to try to make it into something else.
The World doesn't turn just for you...nor should it.
I respect what you want out of your car. Now, how about returning that respect for others who want something else?
If your never plan on pushing your car near its limits including in the rain then it don't exactly matter if it's totally balance.
Just know if you do push it to its limits the rear will give way before the front end does causing severe oversteer (backend coming around the front) which is caused by the roll coupling is too stiff in the rear ( spring + roll bar). The front needs to do around 70 % of the work. If you use stiff Springs in the rear you might get away without a rear sway bar and or need more spring and or roll bar in the front. Ideally if you want the most out of it you want the front to give slightly before the rear, but it safer to have understeer than oversteer.
Just know if you do push it to its limits the rear will give way before the front end does causing severe oversteer (backend coming around the front) which is caused by the roll coupling is too stiff in the rear ( spring + roll bar). The front needs to do around 70 % of the work. If you use stiff Springs in the rear you might get away without a rear sway bar and or need more spring and or roll bar in the front. Ideally if you want the most out of it you want the front to give slightly before the rear, but it safer to have understeer than oversteer.
Love Warren Oates in that,& Two Lane Blacktop..
Why don't you go back and read the beginning of this thread? Seriously. All I said was that Super Stock springs were not the best choice for what the OP wanted to do. That they would result in a harsh ride and unbalanced, decreased handling for a street car. I have said multiple times that they are good for what they were designed to do, which is launch at the track. I'm not that one that flagged all of your posts, I did not imply that any of you were whining, and I certainly didn't call you "too old". You guys are the one's backpedaling, and blaming me for being too sensitive after you DID come after my opinion personally. I simply pointed out that adding Super Stock springs to an otherwise fairly stock suspensioned car will in fact result in lousy, unbalanced handling. Which it will. That is in fact something that you can demonstrate quite easily if you actually try some handling situations with a car with SS springs. It is not just my opinion, it is in fact the physics of having a nose heavy car with stiffer springs in the back than in the front, coupled with a rake that will shift the weight of the car even further to the front.
You're right, driving back and forth to car shows or cruising around in dry conditions will never show you how badly your cars really handle unless something unfortunate happens and you're forced to use the handling of your car to avoid some kind of accident. But to say you've "never had any problems" is anecdotal at best and misinformation at worst. It's really more a statement that you've never encountered any situations that required half decent handling. I'm more than aware that not everyone wants to be able to have an old car with new car handling capabilities. But you can have an ok handling car and still run 15" rims and tires that look period correct if you take the right steps with your suspension so that everything works together in a balanced fashion. SS springs are NOT that step. The OP could have achieved the stance he wanted with larger torsion bars and a lowered front end, and his car would have actually handled better as a result.
As far as respect goes, I already said my peace in my last post. They're YOUR cars. You can do whatever you like with them. If that includes modifying them to possibly handle even worse than they did originally, so be it. I don't personally agree with that, but I'm sure you don't agree with my 18" rims either. And I don't go around the board telling people with stock rims and tires that they need to upgrade their cars. I actually try to avoid commenting in any threads about stock, or fairly stock cars because I know that not everyone likes the modifications necessary to make one of these cars handle and I'm tired of purists saying negative things about my car. But I do try to inform people asking questions about how to modify their car about options that will result in better handling. I never said the OP needed to get rid of his 15" (or 14"?) rims. I never said anything about how BFG T/A's are lousy handling tires until after you gentleman chimed in (although that's true). I simply suggested a way that the OP could get the stance he was after while actually improving the handling of his car, even with everything else the same. And that's when it was suggested that SS springs would do what the OP wanted. They won't. I'm not saying you guys can't run SS springs on your cars. Or that all A-bodies need to be modified to handle like mine. The only thing I ever disputed was your claims that your Super Stock spring equipped, otherwise fairly stock suspension set ups handle well on the street. Because they don't. Run your cars however you like, but stop misinforming people.
You're right, driving back and forth to car shows or cruising around in dry conditions will never show you how badly your cars really handle unless something unfortunate happens and you're forced to use the handling of your car to avoid some kind of accident. But to say you've "never had any problems" is anecdotal at best and misinformation at worst. It's really more a statement that you've never encountered any situations that required half decent handling. I'm more than aware that not everyone wants to be able to have an old car with new car handling capabilities. But you can have an ok handling car and still run 15" rims and tires that look period correct if you take the right steps with your suspension so that everything works together in a balanced fashion. SS springs are NOT that step. The OP could have achieved the stance he wanted with larger torsion bars and a lowered front end, and his car would have actually handled better as a result.
As far as respect goes, I already said my peace in my last post. They're YOUR cars. You can do whatever you like with them. If that includes modifying them to possibly handle even worse than they did originally, so be it. I don't personally agree with that, but I'm sure you don't agree with my 18" rims either. And I don't go around the board telling people with stock rims and tires that they need to upgrade their cars. I actually try to avoid commenting in any threads about stock, or fairly stock cars because I know that not everyone likes the modifications necessary to make one of these cars handle and I'm tired of purists saying negative things about my car. But I do try to inform people asking questions about how to modify their car about options that will result in better handling. I never said the OP needed to get rid of his 15" (or 14"?) rims. I never said anything about how BFG T/A's are lousy handling tires until after you gentleman chimed in (although that's true). I simply suggested a way that the OP could get the stance he was after while actually improving the handling of his car, even with everything else the same. And that's when it was suggested that SS springs would do what the OP wanted. They won't. I'm not saying you guys can't run SS springs on your cars. Or that all A-bodies need to be modified to handle like mine. The only thing I ever disputed was your claims that your Super Stock spring equipped, otherwise fairly stock suspension set ups handle well on the street. Because they don't. Run your cars however you like, but stop misinforming people.
Last edited:
PawnCenter72
David and Chelsea rebuild
I like this stance
Yes for that rod it looks good
-
