23 or 18 spline?

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67_Slimer

67_Slimer

Real Hot Rods don't shift themselves.
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OK , this has probably been done to death but I'm confused and maybe someone can help me. I already emailed Dan at Brewers but I'd like to get my fellow A bodies peeps thoughts. I have a 67 dart , weighs about 3200 lbs. 340 .030 over , 10:5/1 525 solid flat cam , Eddy aluminum heads , 1.6 RR , victor intake , 750 brawler carb. Hooker s comps , 23 spline 833 with a RAM paddle clutch disc and a Dana 60 with 4.56s. I would assume it makes 425HP? I exploded my 833 on the street but had a few people in the car power shifting and it was an older tranny. I have an untouched stock one in there right now but want to build my old one and have it be strong enough. My question is , will the 23 spline built from Brewers products be strong enough for street driving occasional power shifting and give me piece of mind or should I switch to an 18 spline? I plan on porting my heads and intake to get more power down the road. Any input helps. Thank you in advance.
 
first off, you have a very aggressive clutch, that will break parts, the 18 spline is stronger,, just food for thought
 
perfacar said:
first off, you have a very aggressive clutch, that will break parts, the 18 spline is stronger,, just food for thought
Click to expand...
Yeah , my clutch is absolutely unbearable. that's getting replaced when I put the new tranny in. I know the 18 spline is stronger , I'm asking if the 23 can handle my application.
 
Yes it will
My combo is similar to yours, except a 367, the car weighs up to 3650/me in it, and sports 295s most days but has worn out a set of 325/50-15 BFG-DRs. I ran a CF-II for a few months but it was too harsh. I replaced the disc with a factory 340 one, and decreased the clamping a bit. The 340 discs only last a summer or maybe two, (spitting the springs out or tearing the hubs out); but IMO are a great street disc.
On the street I find no good reason to powershift. But-um
I have street slick-shifted my 1x23, A833, on Second and Third so it shifts like lightning up to 7200, the highest I have tried. And I installed a gear splitter on the back, that shifts hard enough to bark the tires at 85 mph; and I run 3.55s.
My car has gone 93 in the Eighth@3457 pounds @900ft elevation, which points to about 430 hp.
If my combo don't bust A833s, I seriously doubt yours will.
Here are my Road-gear ratios compared to yours assuming you have the 2.66Low.
Mine; 10.97-8.55-6.82-5.32-4.97-3.88-3.55-2.77 GV in red
yours: 12.13-8.76-6.38-4.56. your ratios suck, lol.
Just Kidding; as you can see, your ratios start out a lil deeper, but both Second and third are neck and neck, but by Fourth, mine is a half a gear better. Of course, I still have 4 gears to go, lol. That don't suck........

At 3200 pounds, you could easily give up some rear gear, unless your CCP is really low. (mine has run up to 195psi) On the street, I would not be afraid to run 3.91s in your combo. My 360 actually likes 3.23 x 3.09= 9.98 . I only run 3.55s cuz 6900 gets me 65mph, with no stick-shifting, I just keep it floored and press the little splitter button@50 mph; the tires never stop spinning, and I challenge anyone to go find where the GVod shifted, lol.
Oh my poor A833, lol.

Now, here are the million dollar questions;
>Exactly which transmission did you break, and
>what exactly did you explode, and
> was it naturally aspirated at the time?
inquiring minds want to know......

BTW, nice car

BTW-2
If yur gonna keep on Power-shifting, you really need to get Dave's (EDIT; I mean Brewer's) street slick-shifted synchronizers. Probably the best modification I did to mine. I still tickle the clutch pedal when NOT splitting gears, and I have to when back-shifting the GVod.......... but you know, I got a 367 lol ..............
 
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Did the gear actually blow up? or
did your engine rip off all the clutch teeth?
If the gear is physically intact, it ain't/may not be, a throw-away.

I took out the backseat of my car, so I can only scare the crap out of one fat friend atta time. In my car, I can feel that 250/300 pounder in Second gear. and three of them really slows my car down in Third gear, seeing as she is up to around 4400 pounds, or more. Which has increased my cubes to weight ration from ~9.5 to 12.2 or more; which is like 29%, ouch.
Yeah, the back seat had to go.
She seems to handle not much different tho, at speeds below 50mph.
 
we ran 23 spline for yearss, had the 3.09 ist gear, in a race car,, 5.57 gears, 340, duster, only prob was, broke a few gears at times, as they were old, we put lots of runs on it, it was proshifted, gear set. ran a 1400 # clutch, then went to a soft loc style. with 1400 # ran a series 300 organic disc. just food for thought.
 
I'm building a 600 hp 416 and went with the 18 spline. I also added a QT bellhousing just to be safe.

1713522419771.jpeg
 
AJ/FormS said:
Yes it will
My combo is similar to yours, except a 367, the car weighs up to 3650/me in it, and sports 295s most days but has worn out a set of 325/50-15 BFG-DRs. I ran a CF-II for a few months but it was too harsh. I replaced the disc with a factory 340 one, and decreased the clamping a bit. The 340 discs only last a summer or maybe two, (spitting the springs out or tearing the hubs out); but IMO are a great street disc.
On the street I find no good reason to powershift. But-um
I have street slick-shifted my 1x23, A833, on Second and Third so it shifts like lightning up to 7200, the highest I have tried. And I installed a gear splitter on the back, that shifts hard enough to bark the tires at 85 mph; and I run 3.55s.
My car has gone 93 in the Eighth@3457 pounds @900ft elevation, which points to about 430 hp.
If my combo don't bust A833s, I seriously doubt yours will.
Here are my Road-gear ratios compared to yours assuming you have the 2.66Low.
Mine; 10.97-8.55-6.82-5.32-4.97-3.88-3.55-2.77 GV in red
yours: 12.13-8.76-6.38-4.56. your ratios suck, lol.
Just Kidding; as you can see, your ratios start out a lil deeper, but both Second and third are neck and neck, but by Fourth, mine is a half a gear better. Of course, I still have 4 gears to go, lol. That don't suck........

At 3200 pounds, you could easily give up some rear gear, unless your CCP is really low. (mine has run up to 195psi) On the street, I would not be afraid to run 3.91s in your combo. My 360 actually likes 3.23 x 3.09= 9.98 . I only run 3.55s cuz 6900 gets me 65mph, with no stick-shifting, I just keep it floored and press the little splitter button@50 mph; the tires never stop spinning, and I challenge anyone to go find where the GVod shifted, lol.
Oh my poor A833, lol.

Now, here are the million dollar questions;
>Exactly which transmission did you break, and
>what exactly did you explode, and
> was it naturally aspirated at the time?
inquiring minds want to know......

BTW, nice car

BTW-2
If yur gonna keep on Power-shifting, you really need to get Dave's street slick-shifted synchronizers. Probably the best modification I did to mine. I still tickle the clutch pedal when NOT splitting gears, and I have to when back-shifting the GVod.......... but you know, I got a 367 lol ..............
Click to expand...
Wow!! where do I start?? Thank you on many levels. The car used to run at the track years ago , steel heads and a 6 pack consistent 12.20's , then swapped to Eddys , at Victor and 750. 11.80s. With limited budget and time , track days are far and few between. I broke my stock A833 third gear , 2 passengers , still not much traction , shifted 2nd to 3rd with my right foot planted (I never lift when I am into it) so it's my own fault. They thought I missed 3rd but I literally shaved every tooth off third gear. I attached a photo what was left of 3rd gear after I took it apart. So I currently have a bone stock 833 in there but I go easy until I can build My old tranny (Aluminum Tail shaft btw) I'm ready to build it and I'm just making sure that 1) the 23 spline will be strong enough for my application (I may be adding some HP by porting my heads and intake) I'll also be changing my clutch when I put the new tranny in. (Id want something less aggressive for the street. (any ideas) I2) would the stock gears from Brewers be strong enough for my application or is there a company that makes gears for that 833 that would be stronger? Any input helps. I appreciate it.

20220329_141442.jpg
 
AJ/FormS said:
Did the gear actually blow up? or
did your engine rip off all the clutch teeth?
If the gear is physically intact, it ain't/may not be, a throw-away.

I took out the backseat of my car, so I can only scare the crap out of one fat friend atta time. In my car, I can feel that 250/300 pounder in Second gear. and three of them really slows my car down in Third gear, seeing as she is up to around 4400 pounds, or more. Which has increased my cubes to weight ration from ~9.5 to 12.2 or more; which is like 29%, ouch.
Yeah, the back seat had to go.
She seems to handle not much different tho, at speeds below 50mph.
Click to expand...
Shaved 3rd gear like it was a cob of corn , but I'm going to want to put all new parts in it.

20220329_141442.jpg
 
67_Slimer said:
So do you have a recommendation on clutch and PP to go with?
Click to expand...
I’m running the Ram 98766 kit behind my 400hp 340, 3.91 25” tire with no issues, but I’m not drag racing nor dead hooking the car all the time. Most of the time when I roast them I over rev and side step the clutch in 1st and floor through the rest of the gears.
 
@67_Slimer
You did that on the street?
With a Dart?
With like 255 street tires?
I wanna know more about your rear suspension!
And yes, your clutch is way outtawhack for street, for how you drive it. Something is gonna have to change.

But, Take a good look in your pile there for something that does not belong, like a foreign object. The only time I ever saw that, in hundreds of boxes I rebuilt in my younger years, is when a gear ate something that should not have been in the box.
 
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3rd gear woes for hard street driving I found to typically be the syncro. (At least started.) And it's not just an A833 thing. I believe its because harder de-accel demands are typical in 3rd gear.

What I don't know. Is if an 18 spline syncros are any tougher than 23?

With Centerforce clutch the pressure plate is bigger for an 18 spline to accommodate the larger diameter disc. So it's not a direct tranny swap.

Just my 2cents.
 
AJ/FormS said:
@67_Slimer
You did that on the street?
With a Dart?
With like 255 street tires?
I wanna know more about your rear suspension!
And yes, your clutch is way outtawhack for street, for how you drive it. Something is gonna have to change.

But, Take a good look in your pile there for something that does not belong, like a foreign object. The only time I ever saw that, in hundreds of boxes I rebuilt in my younger years, is when a gear ate something that should not have been in the box.
Click to expand...
dana 60 rear , 4.56s with MW axles.
Cal Tracs , 255/60 BF regular tires. the problem was I had myself and my 2 friends in the car. I'm sure the extra 500 lbs didn't help. Plus , shifting at 6500 without lifting my right foot hits pretty hard with that old school RAM paddle disc. I definitely need to change my clutch disc for something a little more forgiving.
 
67_Slimer said:
dana 60 rear , 4.56s with MW axles.
Cal Tracs , 255/60 BF regular tires. the problem was I had myself and my 2 friends in the car. I'm sure the extra 500 lbs didn't help. Plus , shifting at 6500 without lifting my right foot hits pretty hard with that old school RAM paddle disc. I definitely need to change my clutch disc for something a little more forgiving.
Click to expand...
Well, Caltracs!, that explains a lot.
I have a GVod behind my Commando, that I use as a Splitter. I shift that at 7000, with a factory Heavy flywheel thru a CF diaphragm, into a 3.55 posi, into either 295BFGs or into 325/50 Drag-Radials.
Into third, my road-gear is 6.92 versus your 6.38
I have an HO 367 that, by it's trap-speed is putting out 430 hp. This 367 has broke two of those Micky-Mouse overdrive gears in the A833od boxes but left the other gears intact. It has not broken a 2.47 box, nor a 2.66 box nor the Commando box.
The GVod shifts faster and harder than sidestepping the clutch. I mean it's POW! and breaks the tires loose at 85mph.
My secret?
I no longer use the CFII disc, which I found to be too harsh, instead, I use factory 340 organic discs; and
I reduced the clampload on the CF PP, to give me a little slip at rpms below when the flyweights come to the party. Ima thinking that static load plays a role at hi-rpm as well.
This combination
eats those 340 discs, but the last time I took the trans down, it was 17 minutes, so no big deal.
The 340 discs crack around the spring pockets, vibrate, and then the springs vacate. I now leave the lower inspection cover off. Or if I wait too long, the hub may tear out. But it's worth it to not bust the trans, nor the ring-gears, nor the U-joints. I'm getting easier on those 340 discs as I get older, saving those GV splits for special occasions. lol.
A long time ago, I was thinking of installing Caltracs, but I like sliding and drifting way more than replacing busted parts.
 
67_Slimer said:
Yeah , my clutch is absolutely unbearable. that's getting replaced when I put the new tranny in. I know the 18 spline is stronger , I'm asking if the 23 can handle my application.
Click to expand...


That clutch will break an 18 spline box too. You can’t build a gear box, ANY gear box that steaming pile of parts breaking junk **** clutch will break.

Fix what you have and buy a good clutch. For what you are doing you could use a B&B/Long cover if you can get one and a rag disc without a Marcel spring in it.

Get it down to 2200-2400 pounds of plate load with no counter weight.

It won’t break parts and it will be quicker and faster than that piece of **** Ram is still selling.

You don’t need a different transmission. You need a clutch.

Edit: I forgot to mention to get rid of that steel flywheel if that’s what you have. It’s a parts breaker too.
 
Glad that you all understand this, I do not speak Greek, and most all of it is Greek to me. Some day, but, it is what it is.
 
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