You’ve been reading then?! Excellent!
Nevermind or be sorry about “All the Questions”, just ask them.
3.55’s are an excellent street gear.
Ha ha ha ha ha .... hater! LMAO!!!
Wet noodle flogging!!! Ha ha ha ha...
318 DQ's
- Thread starter tsa_035
- Start date
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Nevermind or be sorry about “All the Questions”, just ask them.
3.55’s are an excellent street gear.
Wet noodle flogging!!! Ha ha ha ha...
tsa_035
72 Plymouth Duster
LOL!!! Yeah I actually read the comments....
If I didnt have the matching number motor to the car I would probably run an R3 block...
Engine build formular? Find the rpm level YOU will drive at most of the time, and the cam and compression to get you the hp/torque you need, and the corresponding gears/convertor you need for said build. You don't necessarily start with the cam and build engine around that!???/ but it can no doubt be done.
Dartnut
Don't hate me because i'm beautiful
Not that i don't agree with you, but you must be a 340 hater as well............
AJ/FormS
68 Formua-S fastback clone 367/A833/GVod/3.55s
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A 340 is like a big-bore teener.
A 360 is like a stroked 340
A 360 thus is like a stroked and poked teener.
Many years ago(1999), I wanted a stroker, but couldn't really afford it, cuz I was simultaneously "restoring" the entire car, and raising a family. I had at least one of every SBM in my 30 year collection. So the 360 was the obvious choice. I chose it because of the stroke, and how it affected the Dcr with the cam I wanted to run. I was old-school.Dcr was not yet being talked about, and the mainline thought was that 9.5Scr was gonna be the max. I was working in an engine shop, and when I talked things over with my boss, and what I had figured out longhand about Dcr ( there were no calculators out in 97 when I was planning my engine), he wasn't sold on it. But he was willing to let me be a "pioneer". So I built it at 11.3Scr for aluminum heads, and ordered the 292/108 cam that I had been dreaming of since I was a kid.
Well anybody that has ever run this cam knows it's personality. But I had never heard about it.
But I was confident that the combo would work.
And it did.
It made outrageous street power.
I had chosen the 360 because I knew the bottom-end was gonna be soft, and I believed the extra cubes was gonna make it up. And I wanted to run no more than 3.55s, with the trans that I had, the 2.66-A833.
So lets talk about how this cam works in the other SBMs, just the bottom end. So in at 104, the ICA is 70*.
In a 318, at 9.5 Scr the effective stroke is 2.43, the cylinder pressure is 150, and VP of 100
In a 340,at 10.5 Scr,the E-stroke is also 2.43, the pressure rises to 159, and a VP of 119
In my 367, at 11.3Scr, the E-stroke is 2.64,the pressure rises to 176psi, and has a VP of 143
Now to get an idea about VP, think of the torquiest SBM you can; probably a 5.9 right?
Ok so here's the 5.9@ 9.3Scr,with a 252 cam, E-stroke is 2.97, pressure of 157, and VP 141 .
So what I had built was a bottom end at least as strong as a 5.9 up to around 3000/3500, then she began to make power, more and more and more, and I was revving it to 7200, and she was still pulling hard. But get this;7200 was 64mph with 28" tires..... in 1st gear! And of course it was spinning the entire way.
What I discovered was that I had built a monster.
It was fast, furious, and drank gas like a camel guzzles water. But most of all, I was disappointed about the low-rpm torque, cuz face it, how often do you find opportunity to stand on it to 64mph. And stock 5.9 torque was not making me happy the rest of the time. Imagine my disappointment, had I built a 318/340 with that cam.
I retimed that cam several times, but in the end I pulled it out and sold it.
So now I knew what I didn't want, and the next cam was a 270/276/110.
In my 367,now at 10.9cr, the E-stroke is 2.79,pressure of 179, and VP of 153 . So now that thing had serious get-go,and strangely, I didn't morn the loss of power at the top. Had I never had the 292 to compare to, I would never have noticed. The engine still happily revved to 7200 and still pulled pretty hard most of the way.
Now on paper, the difference from a VP of 143 to 153,only maths out to plus 7%. But when you drive 153, it's like driving a 440 Magnum of yesteryear. (they make a VP of 156 at stock specs.)
That's what I wanted!
I HAD thought I wanted 440 power, but what I really wanted was 440 Torque. This cam was incredibly versatile, and I was very sad when it started dropping lobes.
The last cam I put in there, looks like this; 276/286/110, and
in my 367, still at 10.9 Scr, and now with an E-stroke of 2.74, pressure of 175, VP of 148 .
I gave up some VP, but got back the 292 power at the top. To get the bottom-end back, I installed the 3.09-A833 box. Daymn that was a good idea. The loss of 3.3% in VP, was more than offset by the Plus 16% more get go in the TM. And it still burns 87E10 gas.
IMO
I now have the best NA, street-360 ever built........ lol.
Now, here's the point;all the machine work between this engine and any other SBM costs exactly the same.
But if you bolt 63cc aluminum heads onto a 318 at no deck-work/ no shaving heads, with that 292 cam, or almost any performance cam,you will have a dog of a teener. It will cost hundreds of additional dollars to get the bottom-end performance back up to just stock teener performance.
But say you're smarter than that and put iron 58cc heads on...... and get the pistons up to zero-deck with mucho additional machining costs. Now you can make 10.1 Scr and with the 268 cam, make 164psi to burn premium gas, and have a monster VP of 125. Yes 125. ...... that's what an LA 360 makes ......stock.........So with 3.55s you're still a slug up to 24mph with a stick car, unless you rev it up and dump it to break the tires loose, and of course spinning ain't winning.
So I'm not a teener hater, I just can't get past spending mucho more money to get mucho less everything. And I suspect the cost of fuel is gonna sky-rocket shortly, so premium fuel is not on my plate. That makes the 360 the obvious best street choice for everything but perhaps, that is perhaps, in the fuel-mileage arena. But with even a modest compression increase, a 360 can even beat a stock 318 in that area.
Would I spend $1000 for a 360 core delivered to my door? No. I'd keep shopping.
Would I stroke a teener? Not to 4". Would I put a 3.58 crank in it? Maybe; that makes a 349 out of it at 3.94 bore. But I'd have to be desperate.
Knowing what I now know, I'd sooner put an extra gear in the tunnel and go crazy on the rear gear.
On the street it's all about TM, average power, and finding traction.
I have had a boatload of fun with a stone-stock long-block teener, with nothing more than a 4bbl, headers, and 4.30s ........................... and an overdrive for the hiway. That was one of my favorite combos. If I didn't live in the boonies, I mighta forgone the overdrive, and maybe dialed the rear-gear back a tad, to possibly as little as 3.91s no less.
Yeah so that's my story.
A 360 is like a stroked 340
A 360 thus is like a stroked and poked teener.
Many years ago(1999), I wanted a stroker, but couldn't really afford it, cuz I was simultaneously "restoring" the entire car, and raising a family. I had at least one of every SBM in my 30 year collection. So the 360 was the obvious choice. I chose it because of the stroke, and how it affected the Dcr with the cam I wanted to run. I was old-school.Dcr was not yet being talked about, and the mainline thought was that 9.5Scr was gonna be the max. I was working in an engine shop, and when I talked things over with my boss, and what I had figured out longhand about Dcr ( there were no calculators out in 97 when I was planning my engine), he wasn't sold on it. But he was willing to let me be a "pioneer". So I built it at 11.3Scr for aluminum heads, and ordered the 292/108 cam that I had been dreaming of since I was a kid.
Well anybody that has ever run this cam knows it's personality. But I had never heard about it.
But I was confident that the combo would work.
And it did.
It made outrageous street power.
I had chosen the 360 because I knew the bottom-end was gonna be soft, and I believed the extra cubes was gonna make it up. And I wanted to run no more than 3.55s, with the trans that I had, the 2.66-A833.
So lets talk about how this cam works in the other SBMs, just the bottom end. So in at 104, the ICA is 70*.
In a 318, at 9.5 Scr the effective stroke is 2.43, the cylinder pressure is 150, and VP of 100
In a 340,at 10.5 Scr,the E-stroke is also 2.43, the pressure rises to 159, and a VP of 119
In my 367, at 11.3Scr, the E-stroke is 2.64,the pressure rises to 176psi, and has a VP of 143
Now to get an idea about VP, think of the torquiest SBM you can; probably a 5.9 right?
Ok so here's the 5.9@ 9.3Scr,with a 252 cam, E-stroke is 2.97, pressure of 157, and VP 141 .
So what I had built was a bottom end at least as strong as a 5.9 up to around 3000/3500, then she began to make power, more and more and more, and I was revving it to 7200, and she was still pulling hard. But get this;7200 was 64mph with 28" tires..... in 1st gear! And of course it was spinning the entire way.
What I discovered was that I had built a monster.
It was fast, furious, and drank gas like a camel guzzles water. But most of all, I was disappointed about the low-rpm torque, cuz face it, how often do you find opportunity to stand on it to 64mph. And stock 5.9 torque was not making me happy the rest of the time. Imagine my disappointment, had I built a 318/340 with that cam.
I retimed that cam several times, but in the end I pulled it out and sold it.
So now I knew what I didn't want, and the next cam was a 270/276/110.
In my 367,now at 10.9cr, the E-stroke is 2.79,pressure of 179, and VP of 153 . So now that thing had serious get-go,and strangely, I didn't morn the loss of power at the top. Had I never had the 292 to compare to, I would never have noticed. The engine still happily revved to 7200 and still pulled pretty hard most of the way.
Now on paper, the difference from a VP of 143 to 153,only maths out to plus 7%. But when you drive 153, it's like driving a 440 Magnum of yesteryear. (they make a VP of 156 at stock specs.)
That's what I wanted!
I HAD thought I wanted 440 power, but what I really wanted was 440 Torque. This cam was incredibly versatile, and I was very sad when it started dropping lobes.
The last cam I put in there, looks like this; 276/286/110, and
in my 367, still at 10.9 Scr, and now with an E-stroke of 2.74, pressure of 175, VP of 148 .
I gave up some VP, but got back the 292 power at the top. To get the bottom-end back, I installed the 3.09-A833 box. Daymn that was a good idea. The loss of 3.3% in VP, was more than offset by the Plus 16% more get go in the TM. And it still burns 87E10 gas.
IMO
I now have the best NA, street-360 ever built........ lol.
Now, here's the point;all the machine work between this engine and any other SBM costs exactly the same.
But if you bolt 63cc aluminum heads onto a 318 at no deck-work/ no shaving heads, with that 292 cam, or almost any performance cam,you will have a dog of a teener. It will cost hundreds of additional dollars to get the bottom-end performance back up to just stock teener performance.
But say you're smarter than that and put iron 58cc heads on...... and get the pistons up to zero-deck with mucho additional machining costs. Now you can make 10.1 Scr and with the 268 cam, make 164psi to burn premium gas, and have a monster VP of 125. Yes 125. ...... that's what an LA 360 makes ......stock.........So with 3.55s you're still a slug up to 24mph with a stick car, unless you rev it up and dump it to break the tires loose, and of course spinning ain't winning.
So I'm not a teener hater, I just can't get past spending mucho more money to get mucho less everything. And I suspect the cost of fuel is gonna sky-rocket shortly, so premium fuel is not on my plate. That makes the 360 the obvious best street choice for everything but perhaps, that is perhaps, in the fuel-mileage arena. But with even a modest compression increase, a 360 can even beat a stock 318 in that area.
Would I spend $1000 for a 360 core delivered to my door? No. I'd keep shopping.
Would I stroke a teener? Not to 4". Would I put a 3.58 crank in it? Maybe; that makes a 349 out of it at 3.94 bore. But I'd have to be desperate.
Knowing what I now know, I'd sooner put an extra gear in the tunnel and go crazy on the rear gear.
On the street it's all about TM, average power, and finding traction.
I have had a boatload of fun with a stone-stock long-block teener, with nothing more than a 4bbl, headers, and 4.30s ........................... and an overdrive for the hiway. That was one of my favorite combos. If I didn't live in the boonies, I mighta forgone the overdrive, and maybe dialed the rear-gear back a tad, to possibly as little as 3.91s no less.
Yeah so that's my story.
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Nice street strip combo. More strip with the 292 Purple cam though. I did this combo long ago as well.
I also wasn't to thrilled with the 292 as a street able cam. Excellent otherwise. But thats the grind!
7200 rpm with that cam? Way, way past it operating band.
What was that 270/276 cam?
AJ/FormS
68 Formua-S fastback clone 367/A833/GVod/3.55s
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Sure, but it's not a dragcar, but rather a streeter.It was a one gear deal. 3.55s take it to 60@ 6800 with 28s, and it wasn't worth it to me to pull the stick. The power peak was at about 5200IIRC, so shifting at say 5600, the Rs fall to 4000, then climb to 4880@ 60, so that was a bust. I just let her buck! But even if I stretched it out to 6000, the Rs drop to 4300, and still climb back to the same 4880@60. I just let her buck..... It was never about winning; The tires are spinning the whole way. There's no way to tell in first gear when to shift, all my gauges are lying.I always liked the jaw-drop when they heard that banshee wail.
7000/7200 sounds incredibly awesome, screaming thru dual full-length 3 inch cannons.
The little 270 was a Hughes HE2430AL, now disco'ed. 223/230 @.050 I ran it with 1.6 arms for .538/.549 advertised
Current cam is Hughes next bigger, the HE3037AL, 230/[email protected], and .549/.571 same rockers
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I had that same cam in my 63 Valiant in a 318, 3:23 and 4spd. The motor was stock except for the cam, intake (Edelbrock performer) and carb(Holley 600). This thing was a dog below about 3,000 but then woke up all the way to about 4,000. Couldn't get it to run right, to rich and sputtered. It was in the car when I bought it. I swapped in a .440" cam and it ran so much better and picked up 2 seconds in the 1/4. Right now I have a 360 with the .484 purpleshaft and its been recommended here that I run at least a 3.91 gear and 3,000 stall. I think thats a bit aggressive but when I get it going and its lacking, I'll change it out (gears that is).
AJ/FormS
68 Formua-S fastback clone 367/A833/GVod/3.55s
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The 284/484/108hydro, Is IMO, not very streetable in a 318, unless you have mega compression and aluminum heads. Even at 11/1Scr/175psi, it is only making a VP of 129, just a little better than a stock 360.124,IIRC.
And the 284/114 version is yet worse, but at least you can put iron heads on it.Also at 11/1 the pressure might be 165psi, but the VP looks like 115, about what the teener makes with all stock parts;114VP,IIRC
but, with a more typical 9.8 Scr, this falls to 152psi@112VP with the 284/108 cam.
So to make this 318,fun; the 108LSA cam needs about a 2800 and 3.73s,
while the 114 probably is the one needing a 3000TC and 3.91s. I would never install one of these 114s in my teener. It really needs about 11.5 Scr to make 175psi@ a meager 121VP, just a tad less than a stock 360. Sure, it idles nicer with just 56* of overlap, compared to the 108 at 68*, but the loss of bottom end is very disappointing, not to mention the atrocious fuel consumption.
And the primary nail in the coffin, for either cam in a 318,is trying to make the Scrs of of 11 and 11.5. This is very expensive.
And then;
4000 rpm with an automatic, and 3.73s is about 35mph. IDK about you but I can't wait that long for the engine to wake up. With 3.91s this comes down to 32mph,and; I can't wait that long either. Of course, if it's spinning anyway, then I have no choice.
I'm guessing in a 318, that 284/108 cam is gonna peak around 5400, perhaps a bit more. For low ET with an automatic, you will have to rev it about 800 to 1000 rpm over the peak, to drop in at 3670 to 3800, for a powerband requirement of 2600. To do that, and hit 60 mph at the peak in second gear requires 4.56s. Now if you can make that stick, you will get a low ET because your average power is two full pulls.
With 3.55s, your rpm will be [email protected], then you shift, and the Rs drop to 3660, and the little teener has to pull from there to just 4030 to finish at 60mph. So that's the slow way.
With the A999. She will hit 6200 at 49 mph now, and the Rs drop to 3485, 175 rpm lower: and finish at 60= 4280,250 higher. Can't say which would be quicker.
Now 4.56s is probably not that great an idea, but neither are the 3.55s. A better idea is to bring the power down to a lower rpm, and have more of it down there, and then regear it to peak with 2 full pulls again.
How about the A999 with 4.10s. This would make 60~5000, and so a power peak of about 4800. That requires a cam of about 3 sizes smaller or 262 advertised. That cam on a 110LSa has an ICA of 60* and so at 9.8Scr (easy to make with a 318) makes 162psi and a VP of 126. Compare that to the 284s 152psi/112VP at the same 9.8Scr. The smaller cam looks like 126/112= plus 12.5% more performance below say 3000. That 126 VP allows you to run less TC and Less gear should you chose to. But for low-ET, the 4.10s could quite possibly out perform the 284/108 with 3.55s....... from zero to 60mph. In any case, the power below 3000 will be far more suited to a streeter.
Now, the 268/110 cam has been installed by many, and the happier fellows also pumped up the compression. The guys with the 8/1 teeners are the first to talk about the bottom-end softness.
And the 284/114 version is yet worse, but at least you can put iron heads on it.Also at 11/1 the pressure might be 165psi, but the VP looks like 115, about what the teener makes with all stock parts;114VP,IIRC
but, with a more typical 9.8 Scr, this falls to 152psi@112VP with the 284/108 cam.
So to make this 318,fun; the 108LSA cam needs about a 2800 and 3.73s,
while the 114 probably is the one needing a 3000TC and 3.91s. I would never install one of these 114s in my teener. It really needs about 11.5 Scr to make 175psi@ a meager 121VP, just a tad less than a stock 360. Sure, it idles nicer with just 56* of overlap, compared to the 108 at 68*, but the loss of bottom end is very disappointing, not to mention the atrocious fuel consumption.
And the primary nail in the coffin, for either cam in a 318,is trying to make the Scrs of of 11 and 11.5. This is very expensive.
And then;
4000 rpm with an automatic, and 3.73s is about 35mph. IDK about you but I can't wait that long for the engine to wake up. With 3.91s this comes down to 32mph,and; I can't wait that long either. Of course, if it's spinning anyway, then I have no choice.
I'm guessing in a 318, that 284/108 cam is gonna peak around 5400, perhaps a bit more. For low ET with an automatic, you will have to rev it about 800 to 1000 rpm over the peak, to drop in at 3670 to 3800, for a powerband requirement of 2600. To do that, and hit 60 mph at the peak in second gear requires 4.56s. Now if you can make that stick, you will get a low ET because your average power is two full pulls.
With 3.55s, your rpm will be [email protected], then you shift, and the Rs drop to 3660, and the little teener has to pull from there to just 4030 to finish at 60mph. So that's the slow way.
With the A999. She will hit 6200 at 49 mph now, and the Rs drop to 3485, 175 rpm lower: and finish at 60= 4280,250 higher. Can't say which would be quicker.
Now 4.56s is probably not that great an idea, but neither are the 3.55s. A better idea is to bring the power down to a lower rpm, and have more of it down there, and then regear it to peak with 2 full pulls again.
How about the A999 with 4.10s. This would make 60~5000, and so a power peak of about 4800. That requires a cam of about 3 sizes smaller or 262 advertised. That cam on a 110LSa has an ICA of 60* and so at 9.8Scr (easy to make with a 318) makes 162psi and a VP of 126. Compare that to the 284s 152psi/112VP at the same 9.8Scr. The smaller cam looks like 126/112= plus 12.5% more performance below say 3000. That 126 VP allows you to run less TC and Less gear should you chose to. But for low-ET, the 4.10s could quite possibly out perform the 284/108 with 3.55s....... from zero to 60mph. In any case, the power below 3000 will be far more suited to a streeter.
Now, the 268/110 cam has been installed by many, and the happier fellows also pumped up the compression. The guys with the 8/1 teeners are the first to talk about the bottom-end softness.
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Wyrmrider
Well-Known Member
to those looking at cams
318 hyd lifters
Lunati voodoo is about the only off the shelf cam series designed for the mopar .904 lifter till you get to the Comp HL series which most likely are too big even the smallest ones
Bullet and Howards have lobes for custom grinds- so does Crane- Comp not so much except big (for U)
any detailed suggestions requires all the motor and usage info- start a separate thread
318 hyd lifters
Lunati voodoo is about the only off the shelf cam series designed for the mopar .904 lifter till you get to the Comp HL series which most likely are too big even the smallest ones
Bullet and Howards have lobes for custom grinds- so does Crane- Comp not so much except big (for U)
any detailed suggestions requires all the motor and usage info- start a separate thread
AJ/FormS
68 Formua-S fastback clone 367/A833/GVod/3.55s
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Well I had a bad experience with a 340 cam in a 318 at 8/1. I'll never do that again.
Wyrmrider
Well-Known Member
exactly the 340 cam is only about [email protected] but very long ramps giving very late intake close with the wide lca giving very low dynamic compression
BVVC with low compression Mopars
short duration at the seat, early intake close
big duration @.200
BVVC with low compression Mopars
short duration at the seat, early intake close
big duration @.200
I understand because it wasn’t a true 8-1.
Also what Wyrmrider says below.
(Or above....LOL!
That’s how I feel about it and normally recommend the upgraded 340 cam from MP @22-something duration @.050 with similar lifts at the valve on a 110 rather than the factory 114.
rigger3006
Well-Known Member
why not make it a 390?ive ran 284/484 cam in 318 and 360,they both ran great,especially the 360,its your build, stick that 292 in there, i know i am this year.i failed math but my cars still run fairly good,imho
Wyrmrider
Well-Known Member
the 340 cam is for a high compression build where the extra seat duration bleeds off the cylinder pressure at low rpm- rev it up and it makes power
it's death in a low compression motor unless you rev the snot out of it like we did when you had to run it it stock class
it's death in a low compression motor unless you rev the snot out of it like we did when you had to run it it stock class
AJ/FormS
68 Formua-S fastback clone 367/A833/GVod/3.55s
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That was my experience as well.
I ran a stock 340 cam in a 318 with 9.2 compression and it was awesome... Idled at 22.5" hg with 360 heads and got 17.75 MPG highway with 2.76 gears.... Pulled strong also... Great daily driver I ran to 500,000 miles...
nm9stheham
Well-Known Member
Chalk up one for why to increase compression....
Wyrmrider
Well-Known Member
yep 9.2 is about what an early 340 gets with a head gasket change
the late 340 or 360 dies with the 340 cam as attested to by others above
do not believe adverts for compression ratios
(not that you can't make a long seat duration cam work- but not with 2.76 gears AND low compression)
I've tried advancing the cam every which way, advancing too much and the intake opens too early and you get exhaust contamination- piston coming up tries to push exhaust out your carb- not good
you can do some distributor advance work which helps but bottom line it is'nt the right cam for lower compression
the late 340 or 360 dies with the 340 cam as attested to by others above
do not believe adverts for compression ratios
(not that you can't make a long seat duration cam work- but not with 2.76 gears AND low compression)
I've tried advancing the cam every which way, advancing too much and the intake opens too early and you get exhaust contamination- piston coming up tries to push exhaust out your carb- not good
you can do some distributor advance work which helps but bottom line it is'nt the right cam for lower compression
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